Mare on bute and with sweet itch

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Mitchyden

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I own a fantastic arab mare who is an amazing endurance horse.
Unfortunately, she has been diagnosed with a bone spavin and only has a 60% chance of being sound enough to ride let alone compete.

I would like to breed a foal from her but as she may have to be on bute long term, I was wondering whether it would affect the foal? Also, she has sweet itch and I'm not sure if it's hereditary? If it is, then I wouldn't breed from her.

If both the above are ok then all I've got to do is find a suitable husband for her. Now that's the difficult bit!

I quite fancy putting her to something other than an arab and I've come up with three choices so far. A skewbald horse 50% arab, 50% standardbred, a connemara (but worried the foal might be too small) or a trakehner (but worried the foal might be too firey as Zara is a bit wild).

Would be grateful for people's opinions.
 
I would not but if you are set on the idea, how bad is the sweet itch? Does she have to wear a rug, is her grazing restricted? Her management will have an affect on the foal, not as much turn out etc. I know that opinon is split whether it is hereditary, but as with human conditions like Psoriasis it is hit & miss. Arabs are known for the hard tough bone structure so to find one with bog spavin means there could be a weakness there too. I say this as it is generally thought of as a down to poor conformation, such as sickle & cow hocks, which is hereditary.

As it is so much cheaper to buy a youngster that is what I would be doing, sorry, it is just my thought.
 
Sweet itch is hereditary - personally I would never breed from a horse with the condition.
I'd also wonder if her conformation has predisposed her to have a spavin - usually horses with cow, sickle or straight hocks are prone to them, so you wouldn't want that passed onto a foal.
There are an awful lot of nice arabs and partbreds around at the moment going for very little money, as they are not really in fashion, so it would be far cheaper to buy what you want than breed one - you're looking at around £2500 to get a foal on the ground and that's if everything goes to plan, then you've got 4yrs before you can get on it!!
 
It's not actually her conformation that's at fault as she's won numerous show classes and she's as near perfect as a horse can get. I personally think its because the person who owned her before me competed her too many times at a very young age.

The reason I want to breed as oppose to buy is because she is an amazing endurance horse and I would like to think she could pass this ability onto her offspring.

Obviously if the sweet itch is hereditary, then its something I'd have to seriously think about as I already have 3 that have it!! (I must admit, the last two I've bought because I felt sorry for them standing in a field scratching).
 
If she is unsound then it wont help her when she is 10/11mths in-foal tyring to carry the extra weight all the time. Its not like when they have a rider on board that is on there an hour or so, she is carrying it 24/7 until she foals. The person you should be asking is your vet, they should know just how bad it is & if she will cope with it. As I said I just would not bother, the costs are not justified in these circumstances. Yes the bog spavin could be due to work load, but Arabs are bred for the purpose & they are not treated as pets in their home land! They are a tough breed & if she has the conformation to win classes then she should have the conformation to stay sound.
 
Doing too much too young ruins so many horses! Ditto what majic104 said - if she is lame now then carrying a foal is going to make her worse. Plus if she is on long term bute it is toxic to the unborn foal and can cause liver damage, and in the mare can cause ulcers which you really don't want in a pregnant animal!!
Have you got a conformational shot of her? I love the old fashioned/endurance type arabs, we used to have a little arab stallion who was such a sweety, they are such loyal horses!!:D
 
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Alexart said:
Sweet itch is hereditary
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That is NOT proven!

To quote the Sweet Itch Helpline:

"Hereditary predisposition may be a factor in Sweet Itch and work to identify the gene(s) responsible is at an early stage. However environmental factors play a major part - where the horse is born and where it lives as an adult are at least as significant as the bloodlines of its sire and dam."

I have a mare with Sweet Itch (showed up at 15 months) who has bred 4 foals - and none show any signs of Sweet Itch - although we are a very 'midgey' area. The environmental factor I believe was the factor in this mare's case was that - for a short time - she was kept alone in a field as her companion died and we had no suitable companion available.

As she was the ONLY horse in that small area, (midges are territorial and stick to their own small area) - ALL the midges present targetted her - and that was the time the first symptoms appeared.

All her foals have been in groups of at LEAST 3 mares and foals, or 4-5 weanlings/yearlings etc. - so all had the same midge 'challenge' which was sufficient to help create immunity - but not enough to lead to Sweet Itch symptoms.
 
JanetGeorge are you saying you would breed from this mare then, or just from a mare with sweet itch? For me the statement ""Hereditary predisposition may be a factor in Sweet Itch" does not rule an hereditary link. Coupled with her other problems & having to be on bute, I dont think she is worth the risk.
 
She is only on bute while we are waiting for the bone to fuse and she is perfectly sound at walk. Incidently, it is a BONE spavin not a bog spavin which is something totally different.
 
Mitchyden said:
She is only on bute while we are waiting for the bone to fuse and she is perfectly sound at walk. Incidently, it is a BONE spavin not a bog spavin which is something totally different.
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My apologies for not reading it correctly. Though when BONE spavins are caused through work it is generally activities that contribute to uneven or repeated strain of the lower hock joints. Anything which require a great deal of hock flexion as in dressage, sudden stops or turns as in western events, such as reining, stress as in jumping/eventing, or a great deal of concussion possibly lots of trot work associated with driving/harness. Another cause is poor foot management. H&H did an item on it http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/care/402/68907.html?

I still maintain that your vet should be giving you guidance as he is closer to the situation then any of us forum users.
 
magic104 said:
JanetGeorge are you saying you would breed from this mare then, or just from a mare with sweet itch? For me the statement ""Hereditary predisposition may be a factor in Sweet Itch" does not rule an hereditary link. Coupled with her other problems & having to be on bute, I dont think she is worth the risk.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't take her on as a brood mare - but then I don't breed Arabs or endurance horses.

"Hereditary predisposition may be a factor" certainly doesn't rule out a hereditary link - but nor does it mean the disease itself IS hereditary. In terms of Sweet Itch, it suggests to me that there may be a genetic predisposition to allergic conditions - so if the horse faced a particular 'challenge' it would be more likely to succumb to that challenge than a horse without the predisposition.

Funnily enough, we tested my mare for Sweet Itch - and the test came back NEGATIVE for Sweet Itch - but positive for allergy to sheep sorrell, horse flies, and house mites! Neither my vet - nor I - believed that she wasn't allergic to Culicoides. Her pattern of itching and the places worst affected were classic Sweet Itch - the assay used was American and we suspect that the test used a sub-species of Culicoides (and there are about 1000 altogether) that is not the major problem in the UK. My vet has had several classic Sweet Itch cases test negative. But if it looks like a duck .....

The 'genetic factor' may well be a very healthy auto-immune system: to quote the Sweet Itch helpline again:

"The disease is a delayed hypersensitivity to insect bites and results from an over-vigorous response by the animal's immune system. In the process of repelling invading insect saliva (which actually contains harmless protein) the horse attacks some of its own skin cells 'by mistake' and the resulting cell damage causes the symptoms described as Sweet Itch."

SO - basically I wouldn't rule out a brood mare on the basis of Sweet Itch. IF she produced a foal which developed Sweet Itch, I would obviously think again - but with my mare, so far - so very good! (Her foals are rather nice and have superb temperaments!!)

There's no reason this mare should be on long term bute - once her spavin fuses she should be paddock sound, at least. I certainly wouldn't want a pregnant or lactating mare on bute - except for short-term emergency use. That is something the OP should discuss with her vet.
 
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