Mare problems or fundamental issue? - long sorry!

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Raring2Go

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I have a 7 y/o dutch warmblood mare who for various reasons has lacked consistency in her education so far. She was a late starter due to family issues at the stud where she was purchased from. I have owned her since she was 5 and she was backed and ridden away when i got her. She was turned away for a couple of months recently due to my complete lack of time. Previous to this she has spent time with my dressage trainer, spent some time hacking with me and done a small amount of jumping as well as some school work. Over the course of my ownership she has had a couple of minor lameness issues which were not long standing and are resolved, she has regulary seen the physio, dentist and saddler - usually at 6 month intervals, with nothing of note to mention.

She is currently sound, has a clear bill of health from the dentist and physio and in good general health.

My problem is that she has a 'difficult' personality. She is generally wonderful on the ground, a pleasure to hack on a loose rein, enjoys a good blast, doesnt mind traffic etc etc. However, the minute I ask her to do anything remotely like work she says 'no thank you'. She spent two months with my dressage trainer to see if it was me. Their view was that she was very stubborn with a poor work ethic and was quite weak. They did not feel that there was a physical issue, although said obviously it could not be ruled out without veterinary investigation.

I brought her home to do lots of hacking after having a little holiday. She has come back into work with vigour for her hacking but with absolutely no desire to do anything to please otherwise.

Issues include
- will not work in an outline at all, even the pro struggled
- behind the leg apart from when feeling fresh on a hack and when being allowed to let loose on the gallops, in no way as a result of the aid
- when in the school she is explosive into upwards transitions when not allowed to barge forward with the bit
- any impulsion/sensitivity to the leg that is developed is dissipated as soon as she is asked to work to a contact

My question is, is she just a typical WB mare who is a bit of a quirk? Or is her lack of co-operation a sign of some deep seated and fundamental issue? Would you put her in to a more intensive work programme with consistency for longer or would you seek veterinary advice now?

I have always had WB or WBx types or TBs although I usually prefer geldings. However, I have never owned a full WB mare (KWPN). I consider myself to be a fairly decent jockey with over 25 years experience of horse ownership including competing to novice BE, medium BD etc. I am not a fairy and have always given her boundaries and tried to ride her correctly.
 
It sounds to me as if she has low grade chronic pain somewhere that is worse when pushed to hold herself and work correctly but can be coped with when going freely forward such as out hacking, they shut down to the leg in order to protect themselves from more pain, it has the opposite effect if the rider then gets stronger but being a horse they cannot understand that.

I am not sure about poor work ethic in a young horse, in an older horse that has learnt the tricks then possibly but most youngsters are an open book until they learn otherwise for whatever reason, I would want to get her properly checked before pushing any further, the horse I am now working with was happy enough hacking but shut down in the school in a similar way to your mare, the vet suggested it was behavioural but it has now proved to be the SI causing him pain, his generally good work ethic was why I continued to push for answers despite being told there was nothing really wrong.
 
Thanks be positive, that has been my thinking. The horse is weak behind and I have had a niggling feeling about the reason for that but having had a horse with spavin before I have tried to tell myself I am being paranoid. I have held back also because this horse likes to buck, she bucks in the field, she bucks when she is eager to get going on the gallops but she has never once used this as a protest to work and I would expect this to be her first response if she was in pain. I think I know the answer though, and I'll never settle until the vet has bottomed things out. :(
 
Hiya; my tb has always been a Madam to school & most of the time throw toys out occasionally. However that was her, ex polo horse with a mare attitude ha! However she then started bucking in canter & bunny hopping being naughty out on hacks; at first put it down to her but then it carried on so got a vet out to investigate as this point she was slightly unlevel. 5 months later; one surgery she has damaged her cartlidge; soft cartlidge & a tear on her meniscus. So if you have a tiny feeling she's hurting please see a vet! No one else could see he lameness aprt from me so go with your instincts.
 
Hi there, I had a WB x mare that was the most stroppy opinionated little thing. she will just down tools , it's like she just shuts her brain down, and refuse to go forward if she is not in the mood. I have had usual checks done. nothing to find. she is a great little hack and I have sold her to a family who just wants to hack, she is super safe on the roads. It is a shame because she is a cracking jumper, bags of power and scope, if she is in the mood, but when she isn't there's not a great deal to be done. I am convinced with her it is purely attitude, because if the work in question meets with her approval then you have a really fun little ride. she hates the school, but will come alive in an open field. I think some are just ungenerous. i'm sure it's the case with this one anyway. good luck xx
 
Thanks Trules, it's great to hear another tale. I am sometimes inclined to think similar thoughts as the mare will work beautifully at times, in the school but mainly out hacking. I tried asking her to work whilst we were dawdling about and whilst she sometimes snatches and flings her head, if she is fired up and feeling forward of her own accord she will round without argument and feels really powerful.

She also loves to jump and is much more off the leg if you get some poles out. However, after having a few lessons to get going, my instructor thought she needed to be more established on the flat before we pushed any more. So I'm a bit stuck!
 
i'd incorporate a bit of schooling into the pole work to try to get her interested. If I still had mine, i'd take her hunting to see if that would get her more forward. i'm more inclined to think this one was behavioural rather than pain related, as she looked for excuses to misbehave, for instance if there was another horse in the school with her, her behaviour was much worse, even threatening to kick the other horse. she was very clever, and had all the tricks up her sleeve possible to get her own way! she was never going to be consistently obliging unfortunately. but she is happy out hacking a couple of times a week.
 
I would love to take her hunting but she is a little too got for that and I think it would completely blow her mind. Will give the poles a go though!
 
My homebred mare came back from a loan home at the age of 5 like yours. Very flat, doggy, dead to the leg. Two years of hard work to lose the weight she had piled on, and getting her going forward by hunting her, we were getting the same comments in the dressage arena, about being tight in her back, not working through from behind. Took her to the vets who flexioned her and pronounced her 1/10th lame. I went for xrays, and we found she had big bone spurs on the front of her hocks. Despite this she was competing well at BE100, never put in a stop, and, in fact, was trying to do the best she could despite her problems. She had come back described as having a temper and a massive buck which she never showed to me. I usually feel that the horse is trying to tell you something, and its up to us to listen. I manage my mare carefully, she's not on medication, and she is still competing well, now at Novice BE. I would suggest at least having flexion tests, that won't break the bank.
 
Cundlegreen that's great advice thank you. It is her hocks that I am worried about the most but I can't put my finger on why. I suspect it's because I have had one with spavin before, however she doesn't drag her toes or any other tell tale signs. Having some flexion tests is a good idea and I think that's where I will start. X
 
Trules said:
Hi there, I had a WB x mare that was the most stroppy opinionated little thing. she will just down tools , it's like she just shuts her brain down, and refuse to go forward if she is not in the mood.
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Same here, mine was also very stubborn if it was something he didn't want to do (mine was a WB gelding). He was fantastic at home and in lessons but take him to a show and he would usually jump the first few showjumps and then just throw in the towel for no reason at all and nothing would make him go forward, he'd just grind to a halt and that was it (even with a pro). I gave up after a lot of time and effort, sold him to a hacking home where he's been very happy since. Although I currently own a lovely natured, totally not stubborn WB - generally I'm not a fan of WB's. I just find them so opinionated and often difficult! Prefer my TB x's personally.

OP, think you'll just need to get more in depth vet checks done to properly rule out any pain. If no pain is found, perhaps just sell her as a hack since she's so happy doing that. Some horses just aren't suited to what we had hoped!
 
Raring2Go said:
Cundlegreen that's great advice thank you. It is her hocks that I am worried about the most but I can't put my finger on why. I suspect it's because I have had one with spavin before, however she doesn't drag her toes or any other tell tale signs. Having some flexion tests is a good idea and I think that's where I will start. X
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My mare has never dragged her toes, or worn her shoes in a strange way. She uses her hocks really actively. Check out her in a test......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJTmwOk8Mig&list=UUf2bwcSa-2Ft5zNtvXLZEiQ. According to the xrays, she shouldn't be able to jump at all!
 
Do you have a thermographer in your area? They can often be a good starting point as to where any physical problems may be stemming from, they can also do saddle checks!
 
Cundlegreen that's quite amazing. What kind if management do you apply to keep her on the road despite her problems? I'm impressed!

Bollybop, we do yes and it is something I may consider however I was under the impression it only measured surface temp thus leaving the deep SI area undetectable. I stand to be corrected though!

Something else to note, which may give support to the behaviour theory is that she is pretty up and down generally. She is a bit of a hot head yet at the same time a dope on a rope depending on which side of bed she gets out. One day she will meet another horse out hacking and barely notice, the next day she will see another and absolutely turn herself inside out with excitement. Some days she'll hop on the lorry, others she will doze off at the foot of the ramp as you try every conceivable way to get her to load!

Thank you for the suggestions, I used to come on this forum ages ago and lost my log in details. If I had posted this kind of thing a few years ago I would have not received the same tone of replies as this, thank you.
 
Raring2Go said:
Cundlegreen that's quite amazing. What kind if management do you apply to keep her on the road despite her problems? I'm impressed!

Something else to note, which may give support to the behaviour theory is that she is pretty up and down generally. She is a bit of a hot head yet at the same time a dope on a rope depending on which side of bed she gets out. One day she will meet another horse out hacking and barely notice, the next day she will see another and absolutely turn herself inside out with excitement. Some days she'll hop on the lorry, others she will doze off at the foot of the ramp as you try every conceivable way to get her to load!


Thank you for the suggestions, I used to come on this forum ages ago and lost my log in details. If I had posted this kind of thing a few years ago I would have not received the same tone of replies as this, thank you.
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As to management, my mare had steroid injections in her hocks last summer. I didn't think they made any difference at all. I did have a lot of trouble with her front feet falling to bits, this started after her first flu jab. She had to have 5 months off to grow out her feet, and this year is competing very happily in Epona plastic shoes. Her whole way of going has improved, and her balance. We haven't xrayed this year, but it looks like the bone in the hocks has remodelled, and she now feels more comfortable all round. Your mare's behaviour makes me wonder whether she is deficient in minerals. My mare needs a lot of magnesium throughout the summer. You can get a sample of urine tested by a practice near me. They will tell you exactly what your mare is lacking, if anything. Again, this won't cost much at all, then its more thing ticked off the list.
 
She sounds very much like my mare - also a Dutch W/B. Interestingly she was worst when she was seven - the vet thought it was 'teenage tantrums'. She's now ten and we're getting on top of things, she's done her first season of eventing (not saying yours would take that long). In a nutshell it was several things, some poor work ethic around flat work as she just didn't see the point, some weakness - I strengthened her up with pole work and hacking, and some finding what would motivate her, being jealous of a new second horse worked wonders as did jumping her even though her flat work wasn't really where it shouldn't have been. There was also lots of little things that all added together - I now have a fantastic farrier, physio and saddle fitter as the ones I used before, though very good, just weren't picking up on small details, tweaking her feed several times and moving her away from a livery yard, the list could go on! I guess looking back I'm surprised at the sheer number of things that had to be 'right' - fortunately she is a very nice person to have around and quite talented (plus the fact that she wasn't really sell-able!) - so we stuck with it. Worth it in the end :)
 
thanks Emil, that's interesting, there is hope yet for the little one I sold, (she is still stabled with me, so I have a vested interest). she is just 8. maybe she will work through some attitude in time. they are so sensitive, funny that you say yours was jealous of second horse, they have almost human emotions, and I swear the mare I know is so bright she leaves you in no doubt as to what her opinion is.
 
I would strongly suspect a physical issue, which is not to say it couldn't be managed. People tend to focus on the limbs when looking for issues but could be elsewhere (neck for example).
I think so often with these type of horses it's a case of finding lots of little things that help- feeding, turn out time, company, work routine, bitting, bridle and saddle fit, massage, physio, foot balance...... and so on! Like putting together the pieces of a puzzle to find which combination works best.
 
Raring2Go said:
Thanks Trules, it's great to hear another tale. I am sometimes inclined to think similar thoughts as the mare will work beautifully at times, in the school but mainly out hacking. I tried asking her to work whilst we were dawdling about and whilst she sometimes snatches and flings her head, if she is fired up and feeling forward of her own accord she will round without argument and feels really powerful.

She also loves to jump and is much more off the leg if you get some poles out. However, after having a few lessons to get going, my instructor thought she needed to be more established on the flat before we pushed any more. So I'm a bit stuck!
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The thing is if she is fired up then adrenalin could be masking whatever causes her not to do it when she isn't fired up. I think personally I would be looking for a hacking home and getting something that enjoyed what I wanted to do, if the vet can't find anything wrong.
 
foxy1 said:
I would strongly suspect a physical issue, which is not to say it couldn't be managed. People tend to focus on the limbs when looking for issues but could be elsewhere (neck for example).
I think so often with these type of horses it's a case of finding lots of little things that help- feeding, turn out time, company, work routine, bitting, bridle and saddle fit, massage, physio, foot balance...... and so on! Like putting together the pieces of a puzzle to find which combination works best.
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Totally agree. Especially with mares who are more sensitive. I think correct shoeing and foot balance can pay a big part.The difference in my mare this year in plastic shoes has been an eye opener.
 
You say she is nice to hack on a loose rein. I made the mistake with one of mine of hacking her a lot on a loose rein and the only time I picked them up was when I was going to jump her. I basically trained her to be a racehorse, pick the reins up meant go. So I stopped hacking so much with a loose rein, actually rode with a contact and she got over it. Just a thought.
 
Can I ask what is she like when long reined or lunged? When you have the ability to collect her a bit more from the ground, does she down tools then too?
 
Imonone she will work eventually on the lunge but does kick up a fuss just the same. I think because I don't have the added worry of staying on board it allows the throwing weight around easier to work through (and less terrifying!).
 
I have one that has similar issues, same breeding/sex but because she is perfect on the lunge and when being long reined; obedient, forward, calm and willing and over the back it gives me the reassurance that physically things are all well. Yours sounds like she struggles more with the connection which can of course indicate more physical difficulties.

I might be inclined to lunge and long rein and then get on when the acceptance of the aids is more established. With a helper on the ground you could progress to ridden lunge work. Like restarting the basics and going from there.

Assuming that back person, dentist, saddle fitter are all satisfied.
 
Imonone said:
I have one that has similar issues, same breeding/sex but because she is perfect on the lunge and when being long reined; obedient, forward, calm and willing and over the back it gives me the reassurance that physically things are all well. Yours sounds like she struggles more with the connection which can of course indicate more physical difficulties.

I might be inclined to lunge and long rein and then get on when the acceptance of the aids is more established. With a helper on the ground you could progress to ridden lunge work. Like restarting the basics and going from there.

Assuming that back person, dentist, saddle fitter are all satisfied.
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I had one that was perfectly fine on the lunge. Fine to tack up. Fine to put weight on her back. As soon as you got on her she went like a rodeo horse! Got her into the vets and she had a chronic case of ulcers. Personally I'd get the vet out sooner rather than later.

It's all very well and good changing feed, being more forceful, being less forceful, but at the end of the day if something is wrong with her, none of the above suggestions will help!
 
Raring2Go I could have written that about my mare!!! I bought her as a very weak 4yr old and she is now 8. She has wonderful jumping breeding and will jump for fun BUT I do it all on a long rein! Can't and never have been able to pick up a contact. SMine can't gallop though so when we event we also get a stack of timefaults and it is all such a shame as she is beautifully put together but just won't, or can't work in an outline! The more I ask the more dead to the leg she becomes! I have spoken to my vets twice but as she is sound I now feel like I was fobbed off so now I am going to call them to check her out as she is much too nice a horse to "abuse" if there is pain there.

Mine does drag her back toes when being led and we've also laughed that she is just that lazy but now I am concerned that my gut was right :(

In my heart of hearts my horse is a total sweetie and it has never felt right when Instructors or whomever says she is taking the proverbial.

I sincerely hope we all get the the bottom of it.
 
I just thought I would add my experience of a horse that sounds similar to several others on this thread. I had a young warmblood x who was generally fairly sharp and would be very forward going on a hack but would often shut down in the school. He was also explosive into upward transitions (especially canter) if not allowed to run into them, occasionally he would even kick out with a hind leg. If he hadn't worked properly for a while he wasn't too bad but if he worked for a few weeks he would gradually get worse and end up totally dead to the leg. He also looked weak behind and nothing seemed to help that. My instructor thought it was my riding so we kept pushing but he ended up looking 1/10 lame some of the time so I called a vet. He found severe SI pain which was probably referred from bilateral hock lameness. I do think that sometimes the horses we think aren't 'triers' are actually trying harder than most would! Mine was certainly working through a significant amount of pain.
I don't know what more experienced mare owners think (I'm on my first filly having always had geldings and stallions), but I'm finding mareishness tends to be more intermittent?
I do hope you get yours sorted.
 
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