Market Research - Barefoot trimming

Rem said:
I am considering training as a barefoot trimmer in the UK and am carrying out some market research to see if it would be worth the money spent on the training. I would appreciate it if you would take the time to answer just a few questions for me:

Would you use a barefoot trimmer? Never again

How much would you pay for the service?I was charged $50 per horse

What would you expect for that money? Competence, didn't get it

Would you be happy to contribute above the fee quoted for travelling costs? No. That should be factored in to the charge


Please be honest in your answers and thank-you in advance
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cptrayes said:
People use trimmers because farriers are not taught how to keep a performance horse without shoes. Their training assumes that horses eventing, hunting, jumping will all have shoes on. Some people use trimmers because they have experience of performance barefoot horses. Some people use trimmers because if they get the right one, they will have far more training about how nutrition affects the feet than a farrier does. Some people use trimmers because their farriers lamed their horses (me for example). Some people use trimmers because shoes lamed their horses and they don't want anyone connected with shoes anywhere near them.
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I'm not sure this is entirely fair to all farriers.

Mine is as happy not to nail metal on to feet as to apply shoes, no matter what the horse is doing. In fact if he believes a horse doesn't need shoes he will say so and trim accordingly. He always arrives on time, sometimes early, works with the vet, advises on feed and management if necessary.

He may be unusual, I'm out of touch with other farriers as he has done my horses for 6 years and is a complete treasure
 
How about a service where before the trimmer left the yard, they gave you a time that they would arrive on the next visit, in 4-12 weeks depending on what your particular horse needed?
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Standard practice as far as my farrier is concerned. I'm given my next appointment each time my horse is shod.

I would use a barefoot trimmer if my horse didn't require shoes (he's in work - so does), and if the trimmer underwent the level of training that my farrier has gone through.

I would go as far to say that a barefoot trimmer should be as adept at the workings of metal and it's process on the foot as my farrier. How else can they understand the bio mechanics of the foot otherwise??????
 
cptrayes said:
That's because nobody has that desire. People use trimmers because farriers are not taught how to keep a performance horse without shoes. Their training assumes that horses eventing, hunting, jumping will all have shoes on. Some people use trimmers because they have experience of performance barefoot horses. Some people use trimmers because if they get the right one, they will have far more training about how nutrition affects the feet than a farrier does. Some people use trimmers because their farriers lamed their horses (me for example). Some people use trimmers because shoes lamed their horses and they don't want anyone connected with shoes anywhere near them.

Why on earth would the OP want to train as a farrier and spend a huge amount of time learning how to work metal and nail it to the bottom of horses' feet, when it's now perfectly clear that a very substantial proportion of horses being shod just don't need shoes??
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I find statements like this HUGELY confrontational and downright insulting and incorrect.
It lays down blanket assumptions about farriers practices and their training. In every walk of life including farriers & trimmers, there are good and bad. Some people use farriers because trimmers have lamed their horses. Some owners know more about their horses nutrition than their trimmer and some horses are better off shod than barefoot.

OP, whatever you decide to do, do it well, get the best training and listen to and respect the owners and other professionals, including vets & farriers, you work with. What works for one, may not work for another. I have seen farriers advise someone that trying barefoot might be better for their horse. I have NEVER heard of a trimmer telling someone that perhaps, their horse would be better off shod. To me that says a lot about the welfare of the animal coming secondary to the opinion of the practice.
 
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I thank everyone for the time taken to voice opinions on whether or not they would use a barefoot trimmer and why.

I am deliberately staying out of the conversations because I want the thread to remain market research.

Vikki
 
cptrayes said:
That's because nobody has that desire. People use trimmers because farriers are not taught how to keep a performance horse without shoes. Their training assumes that horses eventing, hunting, jumping will all have shoes on. Some people use trimmers because they have experience of performance barefoot horses. Some people use trimmers because if they get the right one, they will have far more training about how nutrition affects the feet than a farrier does. Some people use trimmers because their farriers lamed their horses (me for example). Some people use trimmers because shoes lamed their horses and they don't want anyone connected with shoes anywhere near them.

Why on earth would the OP want to train as a farrier and spend a huge amount of time learning how to work metal and nail it to the bottom of horses' feet, when it's now perfectly clear that a very substantial proportion of horses being shod just don't need shoes??
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Pure ignorance! Reading some of your previous posts it is quite clear you are a fanatical BUA, so I wont take too much offense at your comment!
 
"I have seen farriers advise someone that trying barefoot might be better for their horse. I have NEVER heard of a trimmer telling someone that perhaps, their horse would be better off shod. To me that says a lot about the welfare of the animal coming secondary to the opinion of the practice. "

Sorry - don't no how to use the quote properly!!

I don't normally get involved in these debates as they all get a bit too heated, but one thing I do want to point out is that this simply isn't true - any trimmer worth their salt should be advising owners to shoe their horses if there is a good reason to, for example, if the environment isn't condusive, or the owner can't make changes that may be necessary, etc, etc and I know plenty that do - in fact sometimes it is a struggle to persuade the owner that it would be better to shoe their horse! A lot of the trimmers I know (and I certainly can't account for all of them unfortunately) do not promote barefoot for the sake of 'being natural', but because it is in the horse's best interest, but as I say, sometimes it isn't the right thing. The horse's welfare must come first and if that means that they need shoes then so be it, but what the trimmers I know try and do is educate owners as to the reasons to shoe / not shoe so at least they can make an informed decision.

Here is a an article on shod vs shoeless that may interest some http://www.performancehoofcare.com/ShodvsShoeless.html.

Sorry OP - gone a bit off-topic :-)
 
tommy30 said:
Pure ignorance! Reading some of your previous posts it is quite clear you are a fanatical BUA, so I wont take too much offense at your comment!
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I'm interested to know why cptrayes post should cause offense? As far as I'm aware, everything she says is correct? And what's a BUA?
 
Just to let anyone know - I have heard trimmers advise owners to shoe or keep shod on numerous occasions.

I'm not sure that sweeping statements from either side helps the OP make her choice.

Let's try and keep calm guys.
 
Would you use a barefoot trimmer?

Neber say never but I've always used a regular farrier for my barefoot lot

How much would you pay for the service?

No more than a farrier would charge

What would you expect for that money?

Same as from my farrier

Would you be happy to contribute above the fee quoted for travelling costs?

No


I must add that my farrier has actually shown me how to trim my own horses hooves and I now do them all myself..6 ranging from a shetland to a tb including a recovered laminitic..I generally rasp and tidy every couple of weeks so rarely need to actually trim. I would of course call in my farrier for any problems.
 
I paid £35-£40 plus travel for mine and have used both "schools." KC was best I thought. Horse was quicker to transition and there was more a feeling of making progress.

The first trimmer was a nice lady but slightly disapproving of various things but annoyed me by charging the same price for a pony companion that never did any work, just goes from the stable to the field and back again, so it was costing me lots! When I changed to the second trimmer he was OK about doing a "pasture trim" for the pony only.

I would expect a lot of advice about diet, ennvironment and to walk and trot up horse both before and after trim (if OK of course). Take photos? I know the scoring system isn't always used, but it is quite nice to have a record of what is going on.

I think I would also want to be using someone who was or had been, or whose clients were doing a lot with their horses in the way of competition, work load, etc. Not someone who drifted into it but slightly disapproved of people who do lots of competitions instead of being just natural horsemanship people.

Also never slag off farriers or other trimmers.
 
I paid £35-£40 plus travel for mine and have used both "schools." KC was best I thought. Horse was quicker to transition and there was more a feeling of making progress.

The first trimmer was a nice lady but slightly disapproving of various things but annoyed me by charging the same price for a pony companion that never did any work, just goes from the stable to the field and back again, so it was costing me lots! When I changed to the second trimmer he was OK about doing a "pasture trim" for the pony only.

I would expect a lot of advice about diet, ennvironment and to walk and trot up horse both before and after trim (if OK of course). Take photos? I know the scoring system isn't always used, but it is quite nice to have a record of what is going on.

I think I would also want to be using someone who was or had been, or whose clients were doing a lot with their horses in the way of competition, work load, etc. Not someone who drifted into it but slightly disapproved of people who do lots of competitions instead of being just natural horsemanship people.

Also never slag off farriers or other trimmers.
 
No.
Wouldn't, I feel a quaified farrier is sufficiently good to trim as required.
A trim is £20.
No, travelling should be part of the overall charge quoted.
Sorry but having watched someone take two hours per horse doing two livery horses it's a total con.
It does not need two hours, numerous photos taken etc, it reminds me of The Emporer's New Clothes.. If you say it loud enough people believe it..
 
Would you use a barefoot trimmer? NO

How much would you pay for the service? I WOULDN'T

What would you expect for that money? N/A

Would you be happy to contribute above the fee quoted for travelling costs? NO
 
TGM said:
Would you use a barefoot trimmer? NO

How much would you pay for the service? I WOULDN'T

What would you expect for that money? N/A

Would you be happy to contribute above the fee quoted for travelling costs? NO
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Are you prepared to elaberate?
 
henryhorn said:
No.
Wouldn't, I feel a quaified farrier is sufficiently good to trim as required.
A trim is £20.
No, travelling should be part of the overall charge quoted.
Sorry but having watched someone take two hours per horse doing two livery horses it's a total con.
It does not need two hours, numerous photos taken etc, it reminds me of The Emporer's New Clothes.. If you say it loud enough people believe it..
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I don't know somuch about the Emporer's New Clothes, never having seen a trimmer at work, but all this talk about diet advice, etc mystifies me a little. It seems that all people want to pay for is a nice 'bedside manner' and attention and a very slow trim, and are prepared to pay over the odds to get this more attentive service...which is fine if that rocks your boat and you really don't know what to feed your horse, but most people should only need telling once, surely?
 
QR
I am always amazed at the amount of people who don't seem prepared to do any research regarding their animals. It is so easy to find information on how to ensure your horse has the appropriate diet, trim, environment etc for healthy hooves that I for one wouldn't pay someone to come and tell me when, I can get a regular trim from my farrier and do the rest myself.

By researching barefoot I have found that the general advice is most importantly low sugar/ cereal / grass diet and without this, for a large proportion of horses, you'll never get them comfy barefoot regardless of the trim.
 
I don't actually use a barefoot trimmer as I trim my own, but would if I needed to and I do think that when things are a bit difficult it can be the slightest change in the diet that makes all the difference and having somebody's ear to bend and bounce ideas off can be invaluable, and essential for some people too.
Not everybody has access to research available online, or the time to research things properly themselves and so rely on the services of a trimmer. There is lots of new information coming to light all the time about mineral imbalances etc that for some people it will be easier to emply somebody to do the donkey work and continue to keep up to date with it all.
 
Would you use a barefoot trimmer? No. I had my previous Horse barefoot but a regular farrier did the trim. Contrary to popular belief they are actually trained (properly) in this.

How much would you pay for the service? I think it was about £20. The one time I did try a barefoot trimmer I paid £50 (yes, seriously) and he crippled my Horse.

What would you expect for that money? Erm, a trim?

Would you be happy to contribute above the fee quoted for travelling costs? No. Farriers generally charge a flat amount. Why should barefoot be different?

Seriously, if I were you I'd train as a farrier. Much as I love barefoot there's no way mine could be where I am as the tracks are so stoney. There's always a shortage of farriers (massive up here.
 
Would I use a trimmer - Absolutly not.

N/A

What I expect from my farrier - he turns up on time or rings to say he is running late - he always fulfills that one
- He spends time with my horses (one shod, one not) - always does that, watches them move etc
- Easy to get hold of - again check!
- Provides advice/guidance/revisits when needed - always!
- Books next appointment while he is there, and always comes to tidy up my unshod one before a show.

Travel is included in the price - £60 for a set, £20 for a trim.

My farrier is superb, cannot fault him at all, his service is second to none. I cannot say the same for the barefoot trimmers that are used on the yard.
 
No I wouldn't use a trimmer,I prefer to use a qualified farrier who has been thoroughly trained & served an extensive apprenticeship.

My farrier provides an excellent service, has never failed to turn up, will call me if he's running late (or early!), is brilliant with my horses & puts a lot of care & thought into his work. He's happy to keep horses unshod if they are happy that way & will trim according to their needs.
 
amymay said:
I would go as far to say that a barefoot trimmer should be as adept at the workings of metal and it's process on the foot as my farrier. How else can they understand the bio mechanics of the foot otherwise??????
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Why in heaven's name do you think you need to know how to bend hot metal and to nail a piece of metal to the bottom of a horse's foot to understand the biomechanics of an unshod foot? That's like saying that you cannot understand how a person can walk on their foot unless they have trainers on when you study them. What a very odd statement.

Surely if we can work out how to manage the biomechanics of a horse's foot so that we can hunt, event, jump, do stony tracks and everything else with no shoes on, people should consider that is better knowledge than how to do the same by nailing on a bit of steel?

To the people who think I am wrong about the little training that farriers have in keeping performance horses barefoot while they hunt and jump, check the syllabus. You may not like the truth but I fail to see how it can be called offensive to state it.

Check out also the main book for horse anatomy - all the photos of dissected feet are shown WITH A SHOE ON and with the shoe numbered along with the other elements of the foot, as if the horse was born with it on! In other words, farriers are not taught what a foot looks like when a horse works hard without a shoe on. How big a hole in their training is THAT!!! From research by Drs Bowker and Rooney, we can tell you that it is VERY different from a hard working shod foot.

As far as being a barefoot fan, I make no apologies for that. I currently have a horse alive, happy, well and out competing which was 24 hours off being put to sleep in February 2010 because his quality of life after maxing out his insurance with navicular treatments which failed was too poor. I have another (now a resident in the US) who was becoming unsound in shoes and who two farriers told me would never work barefoot who evented affiliated within 9 months. A third who was about to be shod in pads because of his inability to walk over stones due to thin soles, who evented affiliated within 6 months. And a dozen others, racehorses, warmbloods, IDx's who have all worked stony tracks, hunted, jumped, evented without a bit of metal to "protect" their feet. It's wonderful to see, it's wonderful to do, I wonder why so many people are so dead against it?
 
Would you use a barefoot trimmer? YES

How much would you pay for the service? #30 ish for a basic trim #50 for a full 'consultation' inc advice on management etc.

What would you expect for that money? I'd expect a level of 'working barefoot horse' knowledge far above that demostarted by a farrier!

I have used many farrier and whilst most have done an excellent trim, that was ALL they offered. No advice on management, not advice on how to condition their feet to work hard with them. No advice on hoof boots and pads. And whilst most said they were 'pro-barefoot' and won't shoe a horse who is managing fine without shoes, they offered no advice on how to improve a horse who WASN'T managing without shoes, other than to shoe it!

Would you be happy to contribute above the fee quoted for travelling costs? NO

So many people seem to be caught up on the 'trim' part when in fact it's probably one of the least important part of the service! It doesn't matter what trim you give the horse - if the diet and management isn't right then it's not going to manage barefoot. And no farrier I've met will offer any advice on management or diet.

A farriers first and only action when a barefoot horse hit a problem is to shoe it. And then say 'well, not all horses can manage barefoot'.

A barefoot trimmer offers, as someone else said, a holistic approach to feet. A farrier most certainly doesn't - they turn up, run a rasp around the foot, sometimes tell you to hoof oil, it then go away. Maybe there are farriers out there who discuss diet and management with the owners? I've yet to meet or hear of one.

There is a market for barefoot trimmers because farriers aren't filling it! Yes, they spend years learning how to nail shoes into feet but they seem to have very little interest otherwise. I know that a gross generalisation but it fits the majority of farriers.
 
Originally Posted by amymay View Post
I would go as far to say that a barefoot trimmer should be as adept at the workings of metal and it's process on the foot as my farrier. How else can they understand the bio mechanics of the foot otherwise??????

Originally Posted by cptrayes View Post
Why in heaven's name do you think you need to know how to bend hot metal and to nail a piece of metal to the bottom of a horse's foot to understand the biomechanics of an unshod foot? That's like saying that you cannot understand how a person can walk on their foot unless they have trainers on when you study them. What a very odd statement.
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Because if you don't know how a foot works with a shoe on it - and how different types of shoeing affects the action of the horse etc. - how as a barefoot trimmer can you possibly make any kind of informed comparision on how well or not the horse would go without shoes.

I'm not talking about bending hot metal.......
 
Would you use a barefoot trimmer?
not at the moment as i have an excellent farrier.

How much would you pay for the service?
£20/trim- same as i pay my farrier (providing the job is done to same high standards)

What would you expect for that money?
someone to trim the foot in balance with the horse and it's needs.

Would you be happy to contribute above the fee quoted for travelling costs?
no way!!
 
Would you use a barefoot trimmer? YES

How much would you pay for the service? £30-£35

What would you expect for that money? That my horse be trimmed according to his work load

Would you be happy to contribute above the fee quoted for travelling costs? NO, I would expect to be slotted in with other customers in the area, therefore making it cost effective for the trimmer.

I've used a trimmer for the last 18 months, it suits me as finding a farrier in our area who would take on a new customer was difficult.

Trimmer turns up on time, is very good with awkward youngsters, explains exactly what/and why he is doing it. The reason he spends 2 hours on the yard is largely due to the fact we consume large amounts of tea and chocolate cake on his visits, we also catch up on all the local gossip!

I have two home bred horses, the eldest now in full ridden work, she goes everywhere unshod and it suits us fine. Roads, tracks, jumping, everything.
Hopefully going cubbing in a few weeks time and I'm sure she will cope very well.

Remember to each his own ;o)
 
I have used two very competent farriers to trim my barefoot horse, and inevitably she is a little footsore for 3 - 5 days after. They don't take tons off of the foot, but return it to a "horse shoe shape". Worn naturally her front feet are very upright and almost a shallow C shape viewed from the side. I now prefer to allow her feet to wear naturally, yes they flare and bits break off now and then - or I trim them off with a hoof knife - but she is never sore and never, ever stumbles.

I think the problem is that farriers do want to return the foot to a shoe shape and in some animals it is just not the right shape.
 
amymay said:
Because if you don't know how a foot works with a shoe on it - and how different types of shoeing affects the action of the horse etc. - how as a barefoot trimmer can you possibly make any kind of informed comparision on how well or not the horse would go without shoes.

I'm not talking about bending hot metal.......
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You don't get it do you Amymay? Taking off the shoes appears to cure a number of illnesses that many vets and farriers will tell you cannot be cured. Horses whose shoes are removed overwhelmingly tend to grow stronger feet with better heels, thicker soles, thicker horn, thicker and more solid digital cushion and thicker lateral cartilages with a blood supply which is not present in a shod horse cartilage.

On that basis, I and others like me believe that it is the way the horse moves without shoes which is correct. How a horse moves in shoes bears no relation to how well the horse will take to being shoeless, as cures of "incurably" lame horses are demonstrating time and time again. It is completely unnecessary to learn the mechanics of a horse moving in shoes to be a good barefoot trimmer. The horse knows how to build the right foot for his own body, good trimmers learn how to listen to him.

It is a positive advantage to employ a trimmer to trim your horse if your farrier believes in his heart that shoes are best for working horses, because then he has no incentive for you to succeed, or if your farrier is the proverbial non-turkey, and won't be voting for Christmas by recommending that he trims your horse for £20 instead of shoeing it for £60-80 or if your farrier is simply completely wrong about just how much work an unshod horse can do. Boy I wish I had a pound for every farrier and vet I have heard say or heard quoted that an unshod horse can't do much roadwork! They are wrong, and while they continue to offer such incorrect advice, people will turn to trimmers.

Your own farrier may be one of the many who are none of those types, in which case you should thank your lucky stars. You will find that most people who are using barefoot trimmers are doing so because, as the stories above tell, plenty of farriers a) routinely leave barefoot horses sore after a trim because they are taught to alter the sole to balance the foot and a barefoot horse should very rarely have the sole callous taken away b) tell them, incorrectly, that horses cannot work on roads or stony tracks barefoot c) put shoes on every three year old that they are asked to shoe without even considering whether the owner should be advised to try to keep the horse shoeless d) continue to take money for shoeing, month after month and year after year, horses which they must know can manage perfectly well without shoes - cobs with great feet - dressage horses going from stable to arena and back and never hacking out - most ponies. The list goes on but I don't want to bore you :)
 
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