AbbieSF
New User
Can you use a martingale with a dutch gag ?
Martingale and dutch gag query
- Thread starter AbbieSF
- Start date
DressageDevil
Well-Known Member
People do, whether you should or not is a different matter.
Personaly its a huge pet hate of mine, I think its wrong to use a bit designed to raise the head with a martingale designed to keep the head below a certain height!
Push me pull me comes to mind......
Personaly its a huge pet hate of mine, I think its wrong to use a bit designed to raise the head with a martingale designed to keep the head below a certain height!
Push me pull me comes to mind......
Darkly_Dreaming_Dex
Well-Known Member
I prefer to use it with a standing martingale to stop you getting a faceful if they chuck their head .
222262
Well-Known Member
But then if you look at the action of the dutch gag, and how the limited poll seems to pull a lot of horses underneath themselves, it isn't actually so criminal.
I think it depends on the horse, both daughter's horse and my horses are ridden in dutch/english gags and martingales.
I think it depends on the horse, both daughter's horse and my horses are ridden in dutch/english gags and martingales.
Sarahgema
Well-Known Member
I ride my horse out hackin in a dutch gag but never with a martigale - purely because he doesn't really need either but I prefer to have him in a stronger bit (happy mouth) so its there if i do need it out hacking.
I dont know anyone who does use this combination either - doesn't mean that its wrong though....
I dont know anyone who does use this combination either - doesn't mean that its wrong though....
AbbieSF
New User
That's what we think, only breastplates only seem impossible to find. Thanks.
DressageDevil
Well-Known Member
Horses that go behind the bit in a dutch gag are typically trying to avoid the poll action which is actually really quite strong.
DressageDevil
Well-Known Member
If you buy a hunting breastplate the martingale section is usually removable.....
ALso Robinsons do a breastplate without the martingale attachment.
And this one is detachable
http://www.derbyhouse.co.uk/prodshow.asp?id=3135&cat=2&scats=49,100
ALso Robinsons do a breastplate without the martingale attachment.
And this one is detachable
http://www.derbyhouse.co.uk/prodshow.asp?id=3135&cat=2&scats=49,100
BFG
Well-Known Member
Do we mean Continental snaffle???/
If so i use mine with a running martingale and it is fine i use the French link continental snaffle on the 2nd ring which keeps him together and the martingale only comes into play if he lifts his head above the contact.
If so i use mine with a running martingale and it is fine i use the French link continental snaffle on the 2nd ring which keeps him together and the martingale only comes into play if he lifts his head above the contact.
amycov
Well-Known Member
I'm the same as BFG just without the french link.
222262
Well-Known Member
Well, we have never found any problems with it on daughter's horse- horse needs a martingale on as it has a tendancy to come over and nut you in the face hunting/teamchasing etc, and the english gag is a life or death bit.
DressageDevil
Well-Known Member
As I said, people do - whether they should or not is another matter
Ezme
Well-Known Member
The only way I would do it is to use the bit how its supposed to be used, with two reins, running martingale on the snaffle rein a la pelham/double bridle. Never had much time for standing martingales but understand their application.
222262
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
As I said, people do - whether they should or not is another matter
[/ QUOTE ]
Well that depends whose rule book you are preaching from.
Myself? I am of the old school variety- if it works, do it. If horse agrees, what is the problem. What I "should" do with my own horses is very much a matter of judgement, and after a good 35years teaching, I'm pretty sure I've got it sussed.
As I said, people do - whether they should or not is another matter
[/ QUOTE ]
Well that depends whose rule book you are preaching from.
Myself? I am of the old school variety- if it works, do it. If horse agrees, what is the problem. What I "should" do with my own horses is very much a matter of judgement, and after a good 35years teaching, I'm pretty sure I've got it sussed.
DressageDevil
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As I said, people do - whether they should or not is another matter
[/ QUOTE ]
Well that depends whose rule book you are preaching from.
Myself? I am of the old school variety- if it works, do it. If horse agrees, what is the problem. What I "should" do with my own horses is very much a matter of judgement, and after a good 35years teaching, I'm pretty sure I've got it sussed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not preaching but as someone who designs bits for a leading manufacturer and as part of my job has involved years of studying how different pieces of tack work with/against various bits and their various actions it is my educated opinion that it is not something that SHOULD be done - however as I said, it is done.
You may feel it works because your children are able to keep control of their ponies, that doesn't mean that its the best set up for your ponies or your children.
However, if thats what you choose to use then thats your right.
[ QUOTE ]
As I said, people do - whether they should or not is another matter
[/ QUOTE ]
Well that depends whose rule book you are preaching from.
Myself? I am of the old school variety- if it works, do it. If horse agrees, what is the problem. What I "should" do with my own horses is very much a matter of judgement, and after a good 35years teaching, I'm pretty sure I've got it sussed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not preaching but as someone who designs bits for a leading manufacturer and as part of my job has involved years of studying how different pieces of tack work with/against various bits and their various actions it is my educated opinion that it is not something that SHOULD be done - however as I said, it is done.
You may feel it works because your children are able to keep control of their ponies, that doesn't mean that its the best set up for your ponies or your children.
However, if thats what you choose to use then thats your right.
Gorgeous George
Well-Known Member
I ride George in a dutch gag on the first ring with a running martingale when we are out hacking and jumping. I just like to know I have that extra bit of control if I need it, and if George gets excited/spooked he can put his head up quite high so I just feel safer. I don't know if it is wrong but he seems to go along quite happily with it, I wouldn't use it if he didn't. He is ridden in a hanging cheek and no martingale for schooling.
222262
Well-Known Member
My child is 19- I would absolutely dread to think what would happen to the combination if either of the items were removed, going on past experiences, it would not be pretty.
DressageDevil
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
My child is 19- I would absolutely dread to think what would happen to the combination if either of the items were removed, going on past experiences, it would not be pretty.
[/ QUOTE ]
My response to that can only be that more schooling is clearly needed.....IMO
My child is 19- I would absolutely dread to think what would happen to the combination if either of the items were removed, going on past experiences, it would not be pretty.
[/ QUOTE ]
My response to that can only be that more schooling is clearly needed.....IMO
Arabelle
Well-Known Member
I have to say, all the schooling in the world can mean nothing on the hunting field. My girl is a total angel in all respects, but draghunting she just loves so much. I am still experimenting with bits, next outing I plan to try a FL dutch gag, 2nd ring plus martigale. I'll use what it takes to enable me to keep doing safely something my pony loves.
What enables anyone to say what other riders 'should' or 'shouldn't' use. I don't believe anyone has that authority (esp. with me being an atheist!).
A
What enables anyone to say what other riders 'should' or 'shouldn't' use. I don't believe anyone has that authority (esp. with me being an atheist!).
A
ester
Not slacking multitasking
My pony had one on with dutch gag when arrived but took it off as cos of his build he can't get his head that high anyway!
If I did want to use on would prob do the 2 reins option like Ezme suggested.
If I did want to use on would prob do the 2 reins option like Ezme suggested.
DressageDevil
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I have to say, all the schooling in the world can mean nothing on the hunting field. My girl is a total angel in all respects, but draghunting she just loves so much. I am still experimenting with bits, next outing I plan to try a FL dutch gag, 2nd ring plus martigale. I'll use what it takes to enable me to keep doing safely something my pony loves.
What enables anyone to say what other riders 'should' or 'shouldn't' use. I don't believe anyone has that authority (esp. with me being an atheist!).
A
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, there are times when you need that bit extra - but if someone is unable to ride a horse in normal situations without strong bits/gadgets etc then its time to return to the drawing board.
I think most of us would admit to using a stronger bit or extra piece of equipment for hunting/xc/exciting things etc
I'm not telling anyone what to do, I am simply saying that the two actions do not compliment each other, if there is a need for added control then there is probably another set up which would give the person the control they need without sending conflicting messages to the animal they are riding.....
These two bits of kit are not designed to be used together period.
I have to say, all the schooling in the world can mean nothing on the hunting field. My girl is a total angel in all respects, but draghunting she just loves so much. I am still experimenting with bits, next outing I plan to try a FL dutch gag, 2nd ring plus martigale. I'll use what it takes to enable me to keep doing safely something my pony loves.
What enables anyone to say what other riders 'should' or 'shouldn't' use. I don't believe anyone has that authority (esp. with me being an atheist!).
A
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, there are times when you need that bit extra - but if someone is unable to ride a horse in normal situations without strong bits/gadgets etc then its time to return to the drawing board.
I think most of us would admit to using a stronger bit or extra piece of equipment for hunting/xc/exciting things etc
I'm not telling anyone what to do, I am simply saying that the two actions do not compliment each other, if there is a need for added control then there is probably another set up which would give the person the control they need without sending conflicting messages to the animal they are riding.....
These two bits of kit are not designed to be used together period.
celia
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I think its wrong to use a bit designed to raise the head with a martingale designed to keep the head below a certain height!
[/ QUOTE ]
Apologies if I'm incorrect here, but I presume what we're refering to as a dutch gag is a multi-ringed snaffle which I've always seen to lower the head as it mainly uses poll pressure..? If this is the case I can't see a problem with it being used in conjunction with a martingale.
I think its wrong to use a bit designed to raise the head with a martingale designed to keep the head below a certain height!
[/ QUOTE ]
Apologies if I'm incorrect here, but I presume what we're refering to as a dutch gag is a multi-ringed snaffle which I've always seen to lower the head as it mainly uses poll pressure..? If this is the case I can't see a problem with it being used in conjunction with a martingale.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Aah yes the great debate on what is the dutch gag actually intend to do. I was always told lower (as opposed to a cheltenham gag which is to raise), others will disagree
Think may depend on the horse on mine it lowers his head (ie stops him getting all welsh and staring into the distance desperately looking for something to spook at!)
Think may depend on the horse on mine it lowers his head (ie stops him getting all welsh and staring into the distance desperately looking for something to spook at!)
Arabelle
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I agree, there are times when you need that bit extra - but if someone is unable to ride a horse in normal situations without strong bits/gadgets etc then its time to return to the drawing board.
I think most of us would admit to using a stronger bit or extra piece of equipment for hunting/xc/exciting things etc
I'm not telling anyone what to do, I am simply saying that the two actions do not compliment each other, if there is a need for added control then there is probably another set up which would give the person the control they need without sending conflicting messages to the animal they are riding.....
These two bits of kit are not designed to be used together period.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you know horses - they have never read our rule books. Best to keep an open mind for each pony in each situation.
A
I agree, there are times when you need that bit extra - but if someone is unable to ride a horse in normal situations without strong bits/gadgets etc then its time to return to the drawing board.
I think most of us would admit to using a stronger bit or extra piece of equipment for hunting/xc/exciting things etc
I'm not telling anyone what to do, I am simply saying that the two actions do not compliment each other, if there is a need for added control then there is probably another set up which would give the person the control they need without sending conflicting messages to the animal they are riding.....
These two bits of kit are not designed to be used together period.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you know horses - they have never read our rule books. Best to keep an open mind for each pony in each situation.
A
DressageDevil
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Apologies if I'm incorrect here, but I presume what we're refering to as a dutch gag is a multi-ringed snaffle which I've always seen to lower the head as it mainly uses poll pressure..? If this is the case I can't see a problem with it being used in conjunction with a martingale.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi
No you're not entirely wrong, yes there is poll pressure but the way the ring and mouth piece is designed the poll pressure doesn't work in quite the same way.
The bit was designed to be used with 2 reins for a start, the top rein causing a lifting action in the mouth, the bottom rein causing the poll pressure, with each rein balancing the action of the other.
The two actions together were designed for schooling horses destined for high school training - its correct name is the continental snaffle.
The aim of the bit is to encourage a raised head and neck with the nose brought in to the vertical to help encourage a lighter forehand.
Using the bit with one rein confuses those signals which typically results in the horse going behind the bit/vertical as the poll pressure is quite extreme, when that single rein is used on the bottom ring, plus without the top rein to balance the bottom the bit ring slides through the mouth piece raising the bit in the mouth at an angle the top rein wouldn't allow - the horse now has no escape from the action but to duck behind the pressure, this helps stop the bit raising in the mouth and relieves a little of the poll pressure.
Now, add to all that the downward pressure of a martingale (incidentally most running martingale are fitted too short) - you can see how the picture starts to build up......
Apologies if I'm incorrect here, but I presume what we're refering to as a dutch gag is a multi-ringed snaffle which I've always seen to lower the head as it mainly uses poll pressure..? If this is the case I can't see a problem with it being used in conjunction with a martingale.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi
No you're not entirely wrong, yes there is poll pressure but the way the ring and mouth piece is designed the poll pressure doesn't work in quite the same way.
The bit was designed to be used with 2 reins for a start, the top rein causing a lifting action in the mouth, the bottom rein causing the poll pressure, with each rein balancing the action of the other.
The two actions together were designed for schooling horses destined for high school training - its correct name is the continental snaffle.
The aim of the bit is to encourage a raised head and neck with the nose brought in to the vertical to help encourage a lighter forehand.
Using the bit with one rein confuses those signals which typically results in the horse going behind the bit/vertical as the poll pressure is quite extreme, when that single rein is used on the bottom ring, plus without the top rein to balance the bottom the bit ring slides through the mouth piece raising the bit in the mouth at an angle the top rein wouldn't allow - the horse now has no escape from the action but to duck behind the pressure, this helps stop the bit raising in the mouth and relieves a little of the poll pressure.
Now, add to all that the downward pressure of a martingale (incidentally most running martingale are fitted too short) - you can see how the picture starts to build up......
Murphy88
Well-Known Member
I spent years competing my SJ pony in a dutch gag (middle ring) and running martingale. The martingale was a must as her head is permanently in the air, but a copper-mouth gag was the only bit she went properly in. She isn't strong, and will stop if you pull the reins, but she tanks at fences in such a way that it would be dangerous to put her in a softer bit (people have tried, it was downright scary!
)
Maybe some extremely intensive schooling would have helped, but savannah hated schooling nearly as much as I did, and would simply fly around, head and knees in the air, spinning in circles every time you tried to make her do anything. IMO, why stress an already stressy pony (she was abused as a youngster) by making her trot around a school in what is for her, an unnatural position, when she was happy just hacking during the week and SJ at weekends. IMO, all the schooling in the world wouldn't have helped her, so I chose to accept it. Considering that 5 years before I bought her the only tack she was handable in was a hackamore and standing martingale, I think the fact that she was safe for me in a gag and running martingale was an achievement.
Maybe some extremely intensive schooling would have helped, but savannah hated schooling nearly as much as I did, and would simply fly around, head and knees in the air, spinning in circles every time you tried to make her do anything. IMO, why stress an already stressy pony (she was abused as a youngster) by making her trot around a school in what is for her, an unnatural position, when she was happy just hacking during the week and SJ at weekends. IMO, all the schooling in the world wouldn't have helped her, so I chose to accept it. Considering that 5 years before I bought her the only tack she was handable in was a hackamore and standing martingale, I think the fact that she was safe for me in a gag and running martingale was an achievement.
oofadoofa
Well-Known Member
I don't leave the yard without a running martingale - not that I have it that tight, but it's there if need be and means you always have a neck strap if need be. I don't see the problem as it does nothing until you need it.
DressageDevil
Well-Known Member
I'm going to bow out of this thread now, I just wanted to explain why they shouldn't be used together, apart from the reasons I have explained they are not the most efficient combination for achieving the end result
People do and will continue to use them together, as I said, thats their right but it doesn't make it right......
People do and will continue to use them together, as I said, thats their right but it doesn't make it right......
oofadoofa
Well-Known Member
Just found a pic of Oofa.... classic use of martingale and dutch gag.... not sure either's really working though!!
DressageDevil
Well-Known Member
Nice horse but it demonstrates my point perfectly!
You can see the bridle pulling down on the poll, the bit pulling up in his mouth where the skin is being pulled into folds puliing his head higher and the martingale pulling down on the reins, his eyes show what he thinks of it all at that precise moment...... not good.
You can see the bridle pulling down on the poll, the bit pulling up in his mouth where the skin is being pulled into folds puliing his head higher and the martingale pulling down on the reins, his eyes show what he thinks of it all at that precise moment...... not good.