Mass production

[stangs]

Scrolling through a sales catalogue day, and stumbled across two different entries selling around 30 foals each. Then, of course, at Chagford, you always have several breeders selling 20-50 foals each. Now this isn't a post to say that the welfare of those foals has been compromised like puppies' welfare gets compromised in puppy farms, but was a bit of a shock to the system seeing those numbers, and such blatant overbreeding in the modern day. Who's buying all these foals - does the meatman attend Brecon?

 

[eahotson]

Scrolling through a sales catalogue day, and stumbled across two different entries selling around 30 foals each. Then, of course, at Chagford, you always have several breeders selling 20-50 foals each. Now this isn't a post to say that the welfare of those foals has been compromised like puppies' welfare gets compromised in puppy farms, but was a bit of a shock to the system seeing those numbers, and such blatant overbreeding in the modern day. Who's buying all these foals - does the meatman attend Brecon?

Sad.

 

[HorseMaid]

I was at Chagford last year (I think, might have been the year before!) and was struck thinking what would happen to all of the very small, badly put together little moorland ponies that were there. Lots of little tiny colts not really worth gelding to be honest, although it sounds a bit brutal I imagine the meat man was busy that day. I can't imagine being the breeder of all these little ponies and loading them all up knowing they'd all most likely go for meat.

The ones that sold well were, obviously, the ones that would make a decent height with a registered sire (from memory the main lot of those were by a quarter horse stallion and would have made about 15hh).

 

[Steerpike]

I was surprised at some of the prices yesterday at Brecon they were quite high, not sure if the meat man was there but I guess he would be as some goals went for small money, yesterday was the day for any horse today is for pure and part bred Welsh. I did feel sorry for the foals, weaned on Tuesday and sent to the sales yesterday with some dealers being more handy than others, when I look out and see my 5 month old still with his mum I don't think I could do that!

 

[eahotson]

I was surprised at some of the prices yesterday at Brecon they were quite high, not sure if the meat man was there but I guess he would be as some goals went for small money, yesterday was the day for any horse today is for pure and part bred Welsh. I did feel sorry for the foals, weaned on Tuesday and sent to the sales yesterday with some dealers being more handy than others, when I look out and see my 5 month old still with his mum I don't think I could do that!

Cruel.Should be a minimum age.

 

[Wishfilly]

Scrolling through a sales catalogue day, and stumbled across two different entries selling around 30 foals each. Then, of course, at Chagford, you always have several breeders selling 20-50 foals each. Now this isn't a post to say that the welfare of those foals has been compromised like puppies' welfare gets compromised in puppy farms, but was a bit of a shock to the system seeing those numbers, and such blatant overbreeding in the modern day. Who's buying all these foals - does the meatman attend Brecon?

FWIW, I think the overproduction of poor quality hill ponies on Dartmoor is a massive problem.

However, I would say Chagford sales this year is nothing like the "bad old days" as it were. I'm not saying it is great, but in years gone by you would have ponies selling for <£20 and a lot of unsold stock being culled. I do think the majority of producers are working to produce something people want to buy now. Of the ponies entered, 91% sold, which is not bad going, and the top prices looked pretty good.

Obviously some producers breed a lot of ponies for little to no cost (because they keep them on the moor all year, give them minimal if any vet treatment, then take them down to the sales etc.- I'm not being unfair here, there are people who literally don't treat their moorland ponies for strangles) BUT I think more producers are looking at crosses which produce a slightly larger (and thus more sellable) pony, and trying to produce things that can have a working life as a child's pony etc. And lots of these ponies do go on to be successful at a job.

Equally, you do have people like the DPHT who are really trying to encourage people to breed traditional dartmoor types, and reduce the numbers they are producing, and geld unsuitable colts- which again is good.

Things have been much, much worse in the past, and if we enter another serious recession, no doubt we will see things getting bad again. I really hope the people who had successful sales this year are thinking sensibly about next year and not assuming things will definitely be as good.

 

[stangs]

FWIW, I think the overproduction of poor quality hill ponies on Dartmoor is a massive problem.

However, I would say Chagford sales this year is nothing like the "bad old days" as it were. I'm not saying it is great, but in years gone by you would have ponies selling for <£20 and a lot of unsold stock being culled. I do think the majority of producers are working to produce something people want to buy now. Of the ponies entered, 91% sold, which is not bad going, and the top prices looked pretty good.

Obviously some producers breed a lot of ponies for little to no cost (because they keep them on the moor all year, give them minimal if any vet treatment, then take them down to the sales etc.- I'm not being unfair here, there are people who literally don't treat their moorland ponies for strangles) BUT I think more producers are looking at crosses which produce a slightly larger (and thus more sellable) pony, and trying to produce things that can have a working life as a child's pony etc. And lots of these ponies do go on to be successful at a job.

Equally, you do have people like the DPHT who are really trying to encourage people to breed traditional dartmoor types, and reduce the numbers they are producing, and geld unsuitable colts- which again is good.

Things have been much, much worse in the past, and if we enter another serious recession, no doubt we will see things getting bad again. I really hope the people who had successful sales this year are thinking sensibly about next year and not assuming things will definitely be as good.

Yes, Chagford's definitely improving. I've noticed an active effort in marketing/inspiring interest in some of the herds, especially the ones which make 13hh+. The Vixen herd's the only one I can think of that has a name despite not making rideable sizes. The number of horses getting sold in both the auctions is a reflection of that.

However, when I look at how many people seem to buy 5+ foals, and how many Dartmoor yearlings there are for sale on other platforms, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Plus, though prices have improved, recent years have still reported prices of less than £100 for the small colts, and that was under the pandemic prices.

I love Chagford, for the cultural aspect if nothing else. I'd love to go there one day and come home with a truckload of foals. But some of the breeders have been arriving with 30+ foals every year - bog-standard little coloured things that definitely aren't the ones attracting international interest - I doubt they'll be cutting down anytime soon.

 

[Wishfilly]

Yes, Chagford's definitely improving. I've noticed an active effort in marketing/inspiring interest in some of the herds, especially the ones which make 13hh+. The Vixen herd's the only one I can think of that has a name despite not making rideable sizes. The number of horses getting sold in both the auctions is a reflection of that.

However, when I look at how many people seem to buy 5+ foals, and how many Dartmoor yearlings there are for sale on other platforms, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Plus, though prices have improved, recent years have still reported prices of less than £100 for the small colts, and that was under the pandemic prices.

I love Chagford, for the cultural aspect if nothing else. I'd love to go there one day and come home with a truckload of foals. But some of the breeders have been arriving with 30+ foals every year - bog-standard little coloured things that definitely aren't the ones attracting international interest - I doubt they'll be cutting down anytime soon.

Tbf, I actually have really negative associations with Chagford- I went as a child and teenager in the 00s, and once came away literally in tears at the thought of the colts who would probably be culled because they didn't sell at all. It's getting better from absolute rock bottom. And I agree there are people with rubbish welfare standards who breed excessive numbers of small ponies with rubbish conformation, and just want to make a quick bit of money (and if those sell for £60, they are still making money because they spend nothing on them).

When I looked through the catalogue this year, I thought most of the ones selling really large numbers looked like crosses that might make decent sizes for kids ponies? But I didn't look that closely.

I also know someone who came away from Chagford with 5+ foals - some of them were for clients, and she bought 3 to sell on herself. She is very experienced at taking practically feral ponies and turning them into something that can live on a normal livery yard and someone else can back. She doesn't sell them for massive prices, but the ponies she sells seem to go on to have productive lives. Occasionally, she has taken on ponies (mostly older mares) who simply can't cope with being stabled etc, and she tries to find them suitable companion homes and will often sell at a loss. So, I don't think all the people buying foals in bulk are bad.

I think equally some people think they can buy a cheap foal/yearling at the sales and just slot it into life at a normal yard- and then realise they are in over their heads and sell on later.

I'd much prefer to see breeders engaging with something like the Dartmoor Pony supplementary register scheme, and at least breeding something that has a bit of value as a show animal etc, as well as potentially making a nice riding pony for a kid. I do again know people who are breeding from supplementary registered mares with the view of getting full registration in a few generations- and their offspring do seem to have value but it's a much slower process, rather than going for a quick buck. And they are also not necessarily ponies that will make a lot of money via the sales- but equally I don't think the breeders really involved with this are selling their ponies via the sales anymore.

 

[Orangehorse]

There is a riding school that buys about 6 foals every year, turns them out, and then when they are old enough the staff break them in during the winter when they have more time. They are not used in the riding school, but go out and about a bit, hacked along the roads and then are sold as riding ponies, they have a steady throughput.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Sad to see foals selling for 30 odd quid, such a small price for a life.

 

[rabatsa]

In the bad old days 50-60 years ago a local coal man would take his cattle wagon, with double decks, to the welsh sales. He would come home with 40-60 foals all bought for under 10/- (50p for younger members). He would halter break them and get them so that they could have their feet lifted and trimmed.

Anyone could turn up and for £5 take their pick from his fields. I cannot remember him having anything over 2yrs old. We got a 2yr old that he had bought this way. Our pony made 12.2 and became a super pony.

I also know that he paid his vet bill in ponies.