May cause some amusement... sorting out standing still!!

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KatB

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We're very lucky to have a fantastic expanse of flat old turf to school "on grass" on. I took madam there last night to school, and all was well, until I started to ask for transitions to halt.

We get a fantastic halt, which lasts for about 3 seconds. We then proceed to wave a front leg about, and dig :rolleyes: So I started to ask for quick halt transitions, straight into a "big" trot, or canter, so she stay on my aids as such, but she then decided that was the best game ever, so we did frantic halt, dig, leap into canter :cool:

I think it all stems from the fact to teach her to halt, I used to give her a polo when she stood still. She "begs" for polo's by waving a front leg around, so she now goes halt, want-a-polo-so-wave-leg-around.

She only tends to do it in big open spaces, but obviously as a majority of events have Dr in a big open field, it is something I want to sort out...

Any ideas?!! :D
 
Hmm with out seeing pic's or a video of the manouver (particularlly the "frantic halt, dig, leap into canter") it is hard to offer advice ;)

How about when you halt, and she starts waving her leg around tapping it with the whip and saying NO! or STOP IT! As soon as she stops giving her a big pat, in an attempt to undo your 'polo' training.
Do you think it is something she might grow out of if she realises halts with you on board dont result in Polos? Might take a while...
 
Not sure about anything to sort it out but can fully sympathise. My boy does this whilst waiting for/eating food and at events (though thankfully hasn't done it in the ring or arena). He, however, is obviously an X Factor fan because he digs diagonally with one leg and then the other and makes a lovely cross on the ground. Naughty neddy.

Hope you get some constructive advice that I can pinch!!
 
Keep her in her digging/waving halt until she stops that behaviour - then a couple of seconds after still halt allow her forwards in reward. Keep doing that until you can hold your correct halt.
A bit like training a dog really, positive reinforcement!
 
Millie has done the digging and leg waving- she does out trump your girl though as we did it with lip flapping and head nodding as well!

tbh, i think the best way is just to ignore it and she will outgrow it.
the more hassle i gave Millie the more worked up she got and when she is worked up she HAS to move!

i just used to sit it out and wait for her to sigh and relax and then ask her to walk on.
she is much better now and last night stood for 20 minutes while i was chatting to someone at the yard.
 
Funnily enough - we had our first leg waving this morning in the field. I went out to check the boys and went to see Bog who was sunbathing. I gave him a polo and a cuddle and was standing there scratching his neck when he suddenly lifted his near fore, almost fully extended, and started waving it around after I pretended I had no more polos. Did make me laugh!!

No advice whatsoever I'm afraid. Lucky is obviously highly intelligent. Just like Bog!!
 
Felicity_09 said:
Hmm with out seeing pic's or a video of the manouver (particularlly the "frantic halt, dig, leap into canter") it is hard to offer advice ;)

How about when you halt, and she starts waving her leg around tapping it with the whip and saying NO! or STOP IT! As soon as she stops giving her a big pat, in an attempt to undo your 'polo' training.
Do you think it is something she might grow out of if she realises halts with you on board dont result in Polos? Might take a while...
Click to expand...

Well I have a horrible image of her doing it in a test... "A, down centre line, G, Halt, Salute, Dig a hole" isn't going to catch on somehow.... ;)

If I tell her off she runs backwards, or sideways, hence the forward transitions... unfortunatly the yard I brought her from spoilt her rotten and taught her to "beg", hence the standing on three legs :o

Thank you though :D
 
cazzah said:
Not sure about anything to sort it out but can fully sympathise. My boy does this whilst waiting for/eating food and at events (though thankfully hasn't done it in the ring or arena). He, however, is obviously an X Factor fan because he digs diagonally with one leg and then the other and makes a lovely cross on the ground. Naughty neddy.

Hope you get some constructive advice that I can pinch!!
Click to expand...

They are strange creatures arent they?! The farrier loves it, as he waits for her stand with a front leg up and just bungs the shoe on the foot! :p Saves wrestling to pick a foot up... she does it constantly on the yard.
 
ihatework, thanks will have to try that. I just have to be patient to sit out the fidgeting that follows too!! :)

millitiger, I had a funy feeling you may have experienced similar. I think Millie and Lucky have read from the same book.... :rolleyes:

carolineb, lol! It is quite funny normally, she spends a majority of her time "begging" when she is tied on the yard, she is SO pleased to see me when I go to see her in the field at the moment, I think she misses coming on the yard for the attention seeking oppurtunities!
 
Don't know if it will help with yours, but I had terrible trouble with one of mine that used to paw the ground after being made to stand still for a few seconds out hacking, i.e. to chat to someone or pulling in for a car. I used to randomly just pull into a gateway and stand there, letting him eat a bit of hedge or just looking over the gate. He is now totally chilled out when asked to halt in any situation. It might work, you never know!
 
B used to do this is he had to stand still for more than about 5 seconds!!!!

I just sat and waited it out, with the odd oi and poke in neck with my finger. Anything more and he went backwards. Then when he'd put leg down, i'd wait for a couple more seconds and walk on with big pats. The time he waved gradually decreased and time he stood still increase. Now he never really does it ridden but think he always will on ground!!
 
LOL, very funny! Of course it won't be as funny during a test, but for now very funny!

I would not hit her or discourage her from lifting the leg for a polo, but instead do more and teach her other stuff as well. I would do two things:

- continue with the paw the ground for a polo routine but only when you ask for it and ask for it with a specific word (that does not sound anything like "Halt, immobility, salute"). So only reward this behaviour when it is coupled with the command, any other time give her a cue for getting it wrong (turn your back on her saying "Try again", then turn back towards her and ask again). In time she will realise that it is the behaviour in response to the cue that gets the reward, anything else is ignored.

- teach her "halt immobility" as a separate behaviour and at completely different times. Start on the ground and establish the cue for halt and remain immobile until I say otherwise (like a stand/stay for a dog), then try it on grass, then try it ridden.
 
How funny, I have EXACTLY the same with my 4 year old. He spends half his life waving a front leg in the air - actually I think they are related, he is out of a clover hill mare and have some recollection that yours might be too KatB?
Anyway no constructive advice I'm afraid, mine begs for food but once fed doesn't do it too much, but will also do it when I am on him (was a little nerve wracking when he was first backed and his balance was suspect to say the least). Its his standard reaction to 'i don't get this' or 'I don't want to do this' or 'I have had enough!'
However so far he doesn't do it as part of a halt trabsition....yet!
Rather depressingly apparently his mum, who is now 9, still does it!! Not holding out masses of hope....
 
Does she stand still when you're working with her on the ground? Tacking up, if you stop her while longeing etc?

I think learning to stand relaxed is a very important skill and build it into every young horse's program. Pretty soon they learn if I'm chatting, or talking on my phone, or fiddling with them or whatever, the default setting is to have a little rest, even a nap, and await further orders. Part of this is always giving them ample opportunity to "switch on" again before I ask a question - the last thing you want with an anxious horse is to continually have it wondering what's going to happen next.

Trickier with a horse you haven't started yourself, of course. First the horse has to stand when held in a relatively relaxed manner, in a calm situation - I don't expect a young horse to stand like a rock, no matter what, but I'd hope to work up to that. The young horses learn pretty quickly when to "park" and then I ask in increasingly exciting circumstances.

If the horse is reasonably cool at the start of the ride, I'll work on it a bit then, if not, then I'll wait until the horse is a bit tired. First I walk, on a the rein but in as long a frame as possible, until the horse starts to relax mentally and "sit" on my leg a bit, allowing me to push the walk out. If it's running away from my leg then the halt is never going to work properly - eventually I want to balance the horse in halt between my hand and my leg in an active halt (which is not the same thing as standing still) but I can't be using the hand as a parking brake. This is not "halt at x" practice, this is chilled out halt practice, so I don't insist on accuracy and I don't expect the horse to halt in the "ready" state at first.

When the horse is in the right frame of mind, I ask it to stop and then I sit there, as relaxed possible, until I feel the horse "bubble up" a bit, then I ask it to move on again. Usually the walk will be a bit tense immediately after the halt, so I walk until I'm back to the relaxed frame of mind before I ask again. Sometimes it can be a lot of walking but you just have to allow the time.

Once the horse will stand quietly, I don't usually find it too difficult to introduce a "proper" halt. The only real difference is I will keep the leg on to keep the horse up to the hand and "ready" but if I've done the early work it's not hard for the horse to understand when the leg is on and when it's relaxed.

Of course, this doesn't mean it will necessarily hold when the horse is excited. I try to put youngsters in as many different situations as possible to practice "parking" - other horses jumping, windy days etc. - until I can feel them learn when to switch off.

Personally, I've not used treats to get horses to stand, except for a few times for mounting, although I know people who do it regularly successfully. I would think it would be like clicker training, though - the horse has to learn to connect the treat with standing still rather than "begging", which takes working through all the various other options the horse might try.
 
Really interesting Tarrsteps, I'm certainly not the most experienced in the world but have done a very similar thing with mine. If he is in a more 'lively' mood we do some trot first then come back to walk and do lots of walk - halt (stand for a few seconds) - walk. All round the track, across the diagonal, down 3/4 line and centre line. Mixing it in with a bit more trot and some circles and serpentines etc. He does still wave his front leg around now and again, but he's pretty good when tied up on the yard or waiting for being tacked up etc - leg waves now and again but he doesn't actually dig.

As a matter of interest Tarrsteps you say you don't really expect youngsters to stand like a rock....how still do you expect them to be? Mine is fairly good but when left on yard he does fidget a bit, will turn and look one way then the other....if given a haynet however its a different matter! Once he has been fed or I start tacking up (so he knows he is working before dinner!) he pretty much accepts it and stands and waits! But would you be stricter about the fidgeting or just wait for him to grow out of it?!
 
i think you have to get her to do a relaxed halt, not an 'active, attentive, waiting for the next aid' halt. just sit there relaxed and breathing deeply, totally ignoring any fidgeting, leg waving etc until she gets bored. keep doing this until she accepts it. only move off eventually in calm walk when she's standing calmly. i wouldn't move off in big trot etc, that just increases her antipation. if she's anxious and excited, you won't get a decent halt... i think it was Pat Parelli who said in a demo that trying to get a flight animal, a prey animal to stand still when it is anxious is ridiculous, that just the act of moving its feet around will calm it, this made sense to me. repeating lots and lots of halt and not insisting on her standing perfectly still initially should defuse her!
 
rather than make a huge issue(which im sure it could become, as its important in a test) if it was my horse and i knew i had 3 seconds (before she started waving in the direction of the potential judge in the hope of a polo) , hehehe bless) i would halt for a split second and then move off! in the hope she wont have time to think, then do the same thing all over the arena, so shes is proper confused!!! Then extend the time in which you do if for, and then praps try and sneak down the center line??????
 
Thanks guys, some really interesting things here, I think the thing is to get her to relax, which is a reoccuring theme with everything with her! She is the type that you leave on the yard and something is always being played with. She just CANNOT stand still at all, even when she is "relaxed" on the yard and be stood dozing, she will have something in her mouth, or be stood on 3 legs :/ She is just incredibly busy and active.

She has started to swith off now if I am hacking a familiar route with her on a long rein, she will just bumble along happily, which is a HUGE improvement on what she used to be like. Hopefully with repetition and learning she isn't going to get anything, she will learn to relax in the halt.

Thanks guys :)
Ooh, Ecrozier, yes, she is a clover hill descendant too :p all the ones I have met have been pretty "active" in their minds?! ;)
 
ecrozier said:
As a matter of interest Tarrsteps you say you don't really expect youngsters to stand like a rock....how still do you expect them to be? Mine is fairly good but when left on yard he does fidget a bit, will turn and look one way then the other....if given a haynet however its a different matter! Once he has been fed or I start tacking up (so he knows he is working before dinner!) he pretty much accepts it and stands and waits! But would you be stricter about the fidgeting or just wait for him to grow out of it?!
Click to expand...

It would depend on the horse for me. Some horses accept restraint very easily, so it's not a big deal for them, others really struggle. Yours sounds about perfect. :) I would expect a young horse to fidget a bit if he's standing about, doing nothing, especially if things are happening around him, it's windy etc., although I'd be less accepting if I was trying to do something with him that he should be paying attention to.

As K mentioned, movement is how horses express anxiety - horses are hardwired to move their feet when they're under stress. That's part of the reason they develop confinement vices like weaving and box walking. Holding a foot up/pawing is a relatively minor expression. So the "solution" has to be double barrelled, as it were, combining an effort to lessen the horse's stress with training to teach the horse when standing is essential.

As I said, though, I differentiate between "standing" and "halting". Standing is what the horse is doing when it's tied, when I'm chatting, an so forth. Halting is an active movement, where the horse is still, square and awaiting further orders. Some horses can actually halt before they stand, but usually because they're so tied in to the rider's aids, the rider is continually balancing the aids to keep the horse in place, even if it's naturally disinclined. Personally, for horses that are going to live in the real world, I want them to stand. I take them places with me, make them stand while I'm chatting, teach off them etc. First when they're tired and want to stand anyway, and then, when they've got that, in situations where they would want to move.

The problem is if you simply force a horse to stand without also dialling down its need to move, you're increasing the anxiety level and making it even more likely it will want to move. In many cases the push is translated into a mouth fault (chewing, fussing with the tongue, clinking the bit) or something like head nodding, which is an improvement at least, but not a perfect solution.
 
Just caught up with this thread. Yep KatB definately active in his mind - he is similar in that he has an obsession with picking things up in his mouth - headcollars, leadropes, buckets, brushes....car keys....anything he can get. He had his teeth donw last week and all his grown up molars are through know so not a teething thing.
Tarrsteps thanks. My older boy is an absolute saint for standing still (not down to me he was like that when I bought him!) and will bounce along on a hack, then stand stock still and switch off if I want to stop and talk to someone, then as soon as we move off he's bouncing again! So have been working on this already with Roo as its been a godsend over the years. He will happily stand while I talk to an instructor or someone else, and then move off and work again so thats going well, and first lesson with dressage trainer she was also impressed with his actual halt as opposed to just standing so all going well ridden I think. He never objects to being tied up just fidgets about sometimes although not always (fell asleep with the farrier th other day!), but I do need to work on the 'personal space' thing as he does sometimes seem to not notice I am there!!
Anyway all food for thought, many thanks.
 
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