Maybe I Should Just Give Up

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

nothing obvious on the face of it.

Personally i wouldnt canter on a track if i knew i might hit a boggy bit and if i were you i would scrap the lunging and either ride or do some in hand work. I really dont like lunging or horse walkers as think the grinding round in circles is just no good for them.

I also really really hate pessoas.never seen a horse improved by one, only loads of horses left sore and tight.

im absolutely NOT saying i am some kind of horse soundness god, or that i know it all or that you have to do what i say btw just trying to throw some ideas around
my ideas would be:

scrap the lunging or at least reduce it and please burn the pessoa!

only canter on ground you know is consistent end to end.

cold hose and cold gel more, gets some magnetic wraps and rugs, use the massage pad more.

try and get them out walking on some good hard roads, and on grass and up and down hills. save fast work for perfect ground/surfaced gallops etc.

it is amazing how the tiny details tie together-my horse has EPSM so prone to tightness, back tension, sore hamstrings etc and nothing made a huge diff, but in conjunction his magnet wraps and rugs, a daily equissage, cooling gels, physio stretches, alcar supplement, have come together to make a big impact.

he is also very nappy and backward thinking and by introducing light seat canter work once or twice a week i have got him more forward thinking and sharper so he no longer holds himself tight and thinking backwards. It really opens him up and he comes out for his school work much looser as a result.

i think that carefully mixing up surfaces and work does them the world of good.

Mine only does dressage and doesnt hack in the winter as too sharp and will rear/bronc on the road. I try desperately hard to avoid only working on an artificial surface so in summer will walk hack on the roads, do canter work in the fields (set track and sandly soil so perfect going) and also take him to the gallops to blow off steam on a perfect surface year round.

 

[Polos Mum]

What nightmare bad luck. A few different thoughts -

turn them all out roughed off for a few months and see how you feel, often a break can really make you miss it. Set yourself a deadline, for example to definitely not ride until 1 May - you may well be desporate to get on by then.

this winter has been one of the worst for keeping aminals for a long time - don't underestimate the impact this might have on your feelings - lots of great people are giving up this spring

Do you need to/ want to compete as much, would you feel better with the pressure off just enjoying some hacking for a while? A horse to potter around on would be quite different to a big flashy comp horse.

Even if you can't spot what might be up in your management (and it could just be v bad luck) next time why not totally change your management anyway just to see - if you keep them at home you have that luxury. I'd go for 24/7 turnout as a start, no hard feed/ lotions or potions / keep things much more simple, if that works you could add back in complexity until something goes wrong.

Have you done a soil/ hay analysis - you could be iinadvertantly under or over dosing on certain vits and mins. There is a reason the best racing yards bring up their baby TBs on certain geographical areas with lots of calcium in the soil.

If you buy another invest in all over xrays in your vetting - not that much extra cost and hopefully save you some heartache

Do you always buy youngsters? I've heard said if they are still sound and competing at 12/14 ish then there can't be much that wrong with them - it makes some sence. Lots of the top horses go on and on so if the can cope they can carry on coping - maybe consider something established - that'll help with your knees as they won't mind as much with days off/ won't need as much schooling.

Lastly (trying not to offend!) you do a bit get what you pay for, if your horses have been cheap/ not as great confirmation then they are set up for failure - if you can spend more on something of real quality. My big horse has been off work for ages but he still looks in proportion/ well muscled in the right areas. I;m starting to look for his replacement and I'm comparing everything to his naturally good carrage to try and find something that will be naturally strong.

 

[Rosiejazzandpia]

Try an arab

have to agree! Had numerous horses before, all with their issues. Had a wonderful tb x who was put to sleep a year ago.
After that a friend lent me a 14.2(ish) Arab, shes the most perfect thing I've ever had! She's barefoot, lives out 24/7, eats minimal ammounts, jumps, schools the lot, and before I got her she hadn't done much.
Shes mine now and I think I will always prefer an arab

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I thought I had had bad luck, but this is extreme.
If it were me, I would try driving. There is a lot of skill attached, and you can compete at any level provided you can find a good backstep.
Use small ponies.

 

[AshTay]

Also recommend an arab! Can get taller ones for taller riders - I'm 5ft7 with a 14.2hh.

Taking Prince33Sp4rkle's advice - how about swapping lunging for long lining - lots of benefits and circles can be avoided.

Re the management thing - my gelding (not the arab, a TB x) was recently diagnosed with a back problem which we think has always been there but had recently been exacerbated by management. For example, do your horses have haynets or haybars (or similar?)? He is being lunged and long lined as part of his rehab and when I lunge I also lunge on the arena track so not a circle (keeps me fit too!) and incorporate "straight" lines where I can. I've ditched the pessoa but do use a pair of elasticated sidereins from girth to bit which don't actually hold him down but do remind him not to "stargaze". I think that their very presence also reminds him that he's working because without them he just blasts round in his own way but with them on he's much more responsive.

 

[thewonderhorse]

Conniegirl - Horses are checked every 6 months by a vet, physio and saddler. And Kissing Spine is not a management issue.

Just out of interest, why are the horses checked by a vet every 6 months?

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

very good point about haynets-hate them as much as pessoas lol!

i dont think a cheap horse is any more likely to break if you buy something suited to your discipline conformation wise.....mine was £1k as a 4yo ex racer. He is tough as old boots and never been sick lame or sorry in 4 years he is competing small tour and schooling GP too so no walk in the park.

I do buy in to the theory that if a horse can *survive* a certain lenght of time in a sport, they must be naturally tough and sound-Fig ran 33 times in 3 diff countries between 2yo and 7yo and doesnt have a single windgall or splint never mind anything else! Tough cookie, and was one of the things that we liked about him despite initially wanting a 3/4/5yo (he was 7yo when we got him).

just taking TB's as an example-CS and Fig are both a good strong shape. CS is a strong MW butty sort of TB,very uphill, strong neck/back/loin connection even if a little long behind the saddle, and excellent feet. Fig is a very fine sort but very short coupled, stands very 4 square and again very uphill with good feet.
They are a *sound* shape.

The ones that will break down are the downhill, tubular greyhound shaped ones with back legs a foot longer than front legs and a neck that virtually comes out their knees. They look weak not because they are fit or young but because they are weak!

Buy something that looks like it stands uphill in a square box from the day its born and make no allowances for age or fitness. If it looks like a great big long weak bus, it probably always will!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Just out of interest, why are the horses checked by a vet every 6 months?

not unusual for a competition horse-every time my vet comes to jab something he has a look/feel of Fig and CS and sometimes wants to see them trot round the field/trot up in hand.
small problems caught early are easily treated.

 

[applecart14]

I know how you feel. And I can say that with all sincerity as I lost four horses in under seven years. I am a one horse at a time owner. It felt like my world was ending each time.

My first horse Biggles, 14, died following a severe fetlock injury on a fun ride which necessitated three ops under a GA. He had to be PTS after three weeks. My second horse Miki who was only five, broke his tibia playing in the field. My third horse, darling Billy dropped dead of a heart attack in the field aged 12. And my fourth horse Rommy had to be PTS at Liverpool following a diagnosis of CVM/Wobblers aged 10. All were fit and healthy and very much loved.

It took me a long time to get over Rommy as I was there when he was PTS. He had also been incorrectly diagnosed as having EHV which compounded the situation for him and for me.

It is incredible that you were unlucky enough to have had two horses with wobblers (I am guessing these were WB's). All four of mine were WB's. Something I would seriously never do if I should ever lose my current horse (another WB) is buy another. I think they are very problematic and the type of horse that are for very serious professional riders that keep their horses on very professional yards and never get turned out!!)

I really feel for you. KS is not a death sentence and there have been some very positive outcomes from horses that have had the operation, and a large majority have, I believe, gone back into full work and at the level they were competing at previously. Connie girl is not correct in her assumption that its a management issue. It is my understanding that the only way it could possibly be is if the horses are ridden rollkur or draw reins everyday as stretching is such an important element of preventing KS! forgive me if I am wrong but don't horses get KS from hind limb problems such as spavin, and therefore over compensate in a different way which causes them to 'concertina' themselves and produce KS???? Or have I got that wrong?

Please feel free to PM me.

 

[Reacher]

Just a thought, but have you looked at foot balance ?(sorry if already suggested)

 

[putasocinit]

Havent read all the posts but just wanted to ask have they all been tb the reason is i personally dont like hayracks they are placed too high up and horses have to eat like giraffes which goes totally against the fact they are browsers with little turn out, so are not eating from the ground as they should, yes they will eat leaves from trees but ultimately their heads are on the ground, is wobblers pressure on the spinal cord which makes me wonder if there is a connection to the kissing spines and as already said management. Try to find a solution, good luck

 

[thewonderhorse]

not unusual for a competition horse-every time my vet comes to jab something he has a look/feel of Fig and CS and sometimes wants to see them trot round the field/trot up in hand.
small problems caught early are easily treated.

Sorry, I didn't realise they were all comp horses.

 

[PercyMum]

Thanks all.

I'll try and answer all the Q's:

- All horses have been fed off the floor or haybars as I loathe haynets from a horse and my own perspective. Life is too short to be trying to fill the ruddy things!!
- All have been compact, uphill types. This lad is probably the longest but at 17hh and 6'6 rug, not huge. Interestingly the current TB ran a large number of times, went all over the world, has a metal plate in his leg and was until recently, very bum high. And he has yet to have a day off lame (unless you count the month off for a spanged SI but that was ENTIRELY his own fault for playing super-skids across the field and nothing to do with his confo)
- I have the vet out every 6 months because I am so unlucky with horses and am neurotic about missing something!!!

Could try the LR-ing. Have tried in the past and I am very very pants at it.

 

[BBP]

Another one with some thoughts on the KS stuff (although mine is an anecdotal rather than expert view). Mine presented on thermal imaging with a real hot spot on his spine. Physio and vet confirmed real tension in his multifidius (sp?) muscles. I have no doubt that over time that tension would increase and increase until the spinal processes were touching and I had a KS horse. I put it down to several things, he is a fine, hot, super sharp type who during the backing and early process was very spooky and looky with his head up gawping at everything. Head up drops the back and disengages the abs. I then added the weight of a saddle and myself to his hollowed back and with my own bad back blocking him made it impossible for him to lift his back and stretch over his top line. He learned to compensate as he grew up, managing to look quite pretty and flick his toes out but trailing his back end behind and not being able to step under himself as his abs were so weak.

Once I became aware of the problem it became a matter of changing his posture. Lots of pole work, massage, stretches and ab lifts, loose schooling over poles and bounces, and not riding when my back was really bad. Really working on forwards and improving my riding. I achieved self carriage for the first to ever 2 weeks ago...never knew I hadn't had it til I felt it!

Physio came out yesterday, 8 weeks later, and said the change in incredible, abs are stronger, back is filling out with muscle and hamstrings are softer. Nice muscle tone developing in his bum.

All this is to say that a horses posture can lead to KS and we can worsen it without ever realising. But huge sympathy for you, horses are rarely easy!

 

[PercyMum]

Thanks again for all the advice. He is going in for full scans on Weds. I guess we will just go from there.

On the plus side, I'm a ninja at dealing with post-op horses now!!

 

[Pigeon]

Oh god, I'm so sorry

 

[stencilface]

I had a long reining lesson when I was rehabbing my boy last year to help me be more effective. I really enjoyed it and didome leg yield and shoulder in. It really is a skill, and I'm far far far from expert, but it's a good way to work them and watch movement and you are not restricted to being in the school like you are with lingering

 

[Tobiano]

So sad to read this Percymum, what awful luck. You are obviously 10 million times more expert than me but just reading KatPT's post about her bad back impacting her horse, I just wondered if your bad knees could possibly be giving you a slightly off balance seat? The physio I have for my horses is coming to see me riding shortly and she will do some adjustments and show me how to ride straighter (or she may just throw her hands up in horror and run screaming from the yard). So a tiny perhaps something like that might be helpful for you?

I do hope this time turns out to be nothing like as serious. But, if you are looking at buying another horse any time how about a Lusitano? They are very comfortable, and most have very strong (and wide, flat) backs. And you can get them at 16hh and above.

Good luck x x

 

[MegaBeast]

I think think is a very real scenario for so many KS sufferers. Ride a horse hollow and the back won't arc like a bridge and subsequently will encourage the spinal processes to tend towards each other. A lotof physical problems are caused by poor or incorrect riding, ie making the horse look pretty in front without engaging the back end /abs and rounding the back. There was a very interesting discussion in H&H recently about this very subject with some top vets, farriers and riders.

Another one with some thoughts on the KS stuff (although mine is an anecdotal rather than expert view). Mine presented on thermal imaging with a real hot spot on his spine. Physio and vet confirmed real tension in his multifidius (sp?) muscles. I have no doubt that over time that tension would increase and increase until the spinal processes were touching and I had a KS horse. I put it down to several things, he is a fine, hot, super sharp type who during the backing and early process was very spooky and looky with his head up gawping at everything. Head up drops the back and disengages the abs. I then added the weight of a saddle and myself to his hollowed back and with my own bad back blocking him made it impossible for him to lift his back and stretch over his top line. He learned to compensate as he grew up, managing to look quite pretty and flick his toes out but trailing his back end behind and not being able to step under himself as his abs were so weak.

Once I became aware of the problem it became a matter of changing his posture. Lots of pole work, massage, stretches and ab lifts, loose schooling over poles and bounces, and not riding when my back was really bad. Really working on forwards and improving my riding. I achieved self carriage for the first to ever 2 weeks ago...never knew I hadn't had it til I felt it!

Physio came out yesterday, 8 weeks later, and said the change in incredible, abs are stronger, back is filling out with muscle and hamstrings are softer. Nice muscle tone developing in his bum.

All this is to say that a horses posture can lead to KS and we can worsen it without ever realising. But huge sympathy for you, horses are rarely easy!

 

[Manager2014]

That is really really sad and rotten luck. I'm not knocking any veterinary diagnosis you had on any of your horses but KS does seem to be thrown in the mix when nothing else fits the bill. If you have the x rays and veterinary evidence then there is no argument. But having been through 12 months of problems with my boy I have found that regular horse physio can work absolute wonders on sore backs and everywhere really. I was regularly told ''sounds like KS you need to get him xrayed'' but not wanting to go down the secondary referral route from my vet I persevered with the physio and some farriery improvements and he is now producing some of his best work! Mctimmoey has really worked for him...and I started out as a big skeptic when it came to that sort of thing! Don't give up!

 

[Manager2014]

That is a very interest point...it certainly goes some way to explaining how KS can be developed and even worsened through simple horse confirmation and way of going. Thanks for sharing...

 

[Undecided]

I sort of know how you feel. I'm having vet out this week for Rio and we are about to embark on what will be our third summer off work rehabbing him for some stupid injury. First was a slice down his leg, physio, stretching and lots of groundwork to get it mobile after box rest and bandaging to get it to close up. Second year was lame from farrier, then came sound for a week, then went lame in shoulder, found later to be a tiny hole. Time off, lots of hill work and hacking to strengthen muscles and legs. This year, yet to be diagnosed but wont canter on the right leg, wont keep a canter, wont bend, fixes neck, wont go straight, crooked and lame in both front and hind right legs... In all this time we haven't progressed any further than prelim dressage, unaffiliated. I wasn't planning to take him to the Olympics, but I was hoping to have something to show for my first youngster, first owned horse etc