Meet Saucy, My Competition Mare (RIP Saucy Due To OCD) Controversial Post?

[coreteam1]

This is Saucy, I bought her as a 3rd old. I saved hard for her and my aim was young event horse classes. She was an Irish Sports Horse and had excellent breeding lines for the job she was bought for.

saucy by

After two weeks of having her (I had her vetted, flexion tests etc, no X-Rays) she felt unsound. To cut a long story short she was taken to Gibsons In Leicestershire and was diagnosed with OCD, Osteochondritis Dessicans in her elbow

She was given a 50/50 chance and the prognosis was poor. She did not come sound and it was decided with many tears and much deliberation that she should be put to sleep as she was not even paddock sound. Had she been paddock sound I asked the vet if I could breed from her his answer was 'Why would you breed from something that has OCD?'

A few weeks later after reading a lot about OCD I decided to write a letter to Horse Magazine regarding some information I had gathered. In my letter I explained about my mare and a story my friend had told me. Whilst working at a major stud farm in Kentucky my friend learned that all the youngsters have X-Rays when they are yearlings. If they show any signs of OCD lesions they are put to sleep. Controversial or not, perhaps this is for the best?

My letter was published and I was inundated with letters from people. Many owning youngsters showing signs of OCD. Strangely enough a couple of Stallions kept being mentioned in different letters. I also know of three horses from one of the named stallions that have OCD. I even phoned one major stud to ask if their Stallion had been X-Rayed for OCD and they put the phone down on me. I know they weren't going to tell me anything, after all who am I to ask them that but I was sad and angry.
One of the letters I received was from a study that had bee done in Germany. They took a number of horses and kept a third of them out for 24hrs a day from the day they were born. Another third were stabled 24hrs a day and the other third were out in the day and in at night. Results showed that the third kept outdoors 24hrs a day showed no signs of OCD, the stabled ones nearly all showed signs of OCD and a few of the ones stabled at night only, showed a few signs. I can't remember the exact conclusion as the letter and results are buried in my attic somewhere, however the point was that the youngsters needed to be out.
Another letter suggested feeding. A fast big growing foal was more likely to suffer with OCD, especially if overfed.
Most of the letters suggested OCD being hereditary. I wonder if Stallions/Dams are have X-Rays before they become breeding horses, perhaps the 100 /300 day performance horses do?

I know not all cases of OCD have the same outcome/prognosis as Saucy but it would be nice if we could give the youngsters a chance by perhaps breeding from something we know hasn't got problems?
Rightly or wrongly the breeding goes on.
(Also in Competition Riders)

 

[FairyLights]

I think that this is an excellent post. Ifact I think H&H should run a story about Saucy.Prevention is far,far better,and Yes,stallions should be x-rayed IMO and mares too. You are a considerate and brave person. If there were more like you in the horse world there would definately be less problems and ill-bred horses, not just OCD but other things as well,like COPD, behaviour issues,poor feet and so on.

 

[levantosh]

I totally agree on your theory. However where do you stop?? If all stallions were x-rayed etc then thats a big outlay for the owners. But what happens if mare owners don't agree to have mares x-rayed do stallion owners turn these mares down incase there is a risk?? I can't imagine breeders with 20mares+ are going to get them all x-rayed, the costs involved before the mares even go off to stud would make it not worth while and there is still no guarentees the foals would be sound or justify the costs.
As a stallion owner I would be prepared to x-ray my lad just so if there were any problems with his offspring he can't be blamed.
His breed society insists that he has plenty of tests done before he gets licensed, but they don't insist for the mares (they are tested at the discression of their owners). So why should I pay £800 (approx) for vets and licensing when the mares are not tested it defeats the purpose in my opinion.

 

[magic104]

Quote "So why should I pay £800 (approx) for vets and licensing when the mares are not tested it defeats the purpose in my opinion.
__________________
Not really when you look at how many offspring a stallion can produce compared to that of a mare. Even if she bred every year from age 3yrs to 22ys (about ave) that is 19 foals which a stallion can produce in one year. By the time she is 8yrs old any issues would be noticed as her offspring would be 5yrs, & below. At least 2 would be under saddle & you might think they would be showing signs by then.

 

[Bertthefrog]

I would be interested to know who these stallions are/were - any chance you could pm me??

We lost a 9 month old filly to OCD - she had it in several joints, stifle, hock and I think elbow too if memory serves me correctly.

She was stabled over night, was not fed anything different to all our other youngstock, all turned out on the same grazing but for what ever reason her back end had a massive growth spurt all of a sudden. I have never seen anything like it, before or since.

Her mother was a 3/4 warmblood, her sire TB. None of the dam's other offspring had problems with OCD, including a full brother to this filly, although he was similarly big boned.

Cambridge vet school were doing a study on OCD at the time, and they took the filly to do some research. She was given a full work up, spoilt rotten as she was such a sweetie to work with, then put down and a post mortem done. She had huge lesions in several joints. At least we had made the right decision for her, and hopefully the results from case studies such as hers will offer some hope in the future.

Heart breaking losing a youngster to this condition.

 

[levantosh]

I agree that stallions will produce more offspring than mares, but would people actually stop breeding from mares that produced offspring with ocd etc or would irresponsible breeders just keep blaming the stallions. I think its only fair that stallions and mares should pass the same tests. This would eliminate the chances of breeding ocd etc into future generations.

Out of an estemated 19 foals from a single (if bred every year from 3yo) then irresponsible breeders could use some of that 19 to reproduce so it will always be a vicious circle, stallions normally get the blame.

Example. Appaloosa society has brought out a new policy that all stallions going forward for licensing should pass a grey test first. But the stallions already licensed and the mares do not need testing its up to thier owners. So my point is, if my stallion passes his grey test then I would like to see the appy mares visiting him to have passed the same test. If the mares are not tested but are carriers of the grey gene then they pass it on to their offspring and so on, so it makes the point of testing young stallions invalid.

PS really sorry for the OP's loss hope you find another horse to suit your needs

 

[Rollin]

I am not sure if OCD is congenital or how much is environmental. I do agree with x-raying youngsters though. We had our first pure-bred CB filly x-rayed when she was a yearling.

I am sure there are organisations who would rather turn a blind eye. I have a sad email from a horse lover who purchased a young unbacked horse from a reputable breeder. He was vetted sound but she has had one problem after another with him, including OCD and finally a rare condition of his jaw and nose which has resulted in him being pts.

She rang the breed society to ask if any research was being conducted etc. The man she spoke to tried to argue that the colt she had bought was not a 'pure bred version of this breed'. Yes he was and I know his breeding. She said the man was rude and pompous and she will never deal with the breed society again. Anon. male claimed to have never heard of OCD!!

 

[Alec Swan]

I would be interested to know who these stallions are/were - any chance you could pm me??

We lost a 9 month old filly to OCD - she had it in several joints, stifle, hock and I think elbow too if memory serves me correctly.

She was stabled over night, was not fed anything different to all our other youngstock, all turned out on the same grazing but for what ever reason her back end had a massive growth spurt all of a sudden. I have never seen anything like it, before or since.

Her mother was a 3/4 warmblood, her sire TB. None of the dam's other offspring had problems with OCD, including a full brother to this filly, although he was similarly big boned.

Cambridge vet school were doing a study on OCD at the time, and they took the filly to do some research. She was given a full work up, spoilt rotten as she was such a sweetie to work with, then put down and a post mortem done. She had huge lesions in several joints. At least we had made the right decision for her, and hopefully the results from case studies such as hers will offer some hope in the future.

Heart breaking losing a youngster to this condition.

An interesting response. I've told this story before, but it may stand repeating. In 1993, I think, I bred a TB colt foal. He didn't enjoy the weaning process, and in my ignorance, I attempted to compensate for his loss of milk by over feeding, and with very rich feeds.

Perhaps a month later, he was unsound, behind, and it appeared to be in his stifle, but only on one side. My vet referred he and I to the AHT in Newmarket. I spoke at length with Ian Wright.

I delivered the foal, and we had an hour long 'phone conversation the next evening. He explained that Equine OCD was first diagnosed in 1946. The next case, so he told me, was 1964, and it had doubled very year since.

Prior to '93 I'd witnessed OCD in dogs, generally the larger breeds, and my own potted theory was, that it was caused by rapid growth, brought on, by so many breeders who were simply pushing puppies to hard.

I asked IW if over feeding could be the problem, and whilst he agreed that with dogs, feed was thought to be the major contributing factor, he thought at the time, that it was more likely to be genetics, with horses. Those were his thoughts in '93.

In lengthy debate with other, and more experienced breeders, and from this forum, it seems to me that the general consensus is that, there will be those youngsters who are predisposed to OCD, but that, without question, will be influenced by them being over done.

A large Continental stud became so fed up with OCD, that they went through their mares and all used stallions, with a tooth comb, in an effort to eradicate the problem. Five years later, nothing had changed.

I wonder if there's any reliable research which would show a correlation between those foals which are "fed", and those which aren't.

I'm not qualified to contradict others, but I feel certain that we as owners or breeders are responsible.

janey and Btff, I'm so sorry to hear of your losses. It's heartbreaking, and I know.

Alec.

 

[coreteam1]

Notjustforxmas: That would be good, I think it would cost the breeding industry to much money though and that's why it's swept under the carpet

levantosh: I agree with you comment regarding the Stallions being blamed. I suppose it's due to how many offspring they can actually breed. The grey testing of the Appaloosa's sounds ridiculous if the mares aren't tested too!?
If stallions were to be tested for OCD it would make sense to have the mares tested too.

Bertthefestivefrog: I will PM you

Rollin: Mmm I think it's easier to play dumb and say they have never heard of it, than get into a conversation about the stallion and what problems it may or may not have.

Alec: After my mare died I bought another horse and moved yards. The yard owner bred from her mare and the foals were always big, but not helped by the amount of food piled into them. They were being produced for Hunter classes and were good quality breeds for HOYS level showing, the bigger the foal, the bigger it turns out and the better it looks in a large County Level Hunter class. I wonder how many of them have problems now?
I think OCD (IMO) is hereditary but I also think over feeding can be a contributory facto.
Someone posted this on the Competition Riders (I also posted this on there) and I found this very interesting

http://www.kwpn.org/site/main/article?guid=0f426a46-a35c-11de-bb12-000c299e1a48

This was taken from there:
The KWPN began selecting against OCD in 1987. Starting that year, approved stallions were required to test negative for the disease. Initially, only stallions' hocks were examined for OCD; then in 2003, a mandate was issued to examine stallions' stifles as well. The current selection procedures are effective. Because OCD is a heritable disease, its occurrence is reduced when OCD-positive stallions are consistently banned from breeding.

Maybe Stallion and mare owners/stud owners should read this and perhaps in the future we could breed quality horses to last a life time?

 

[Booboos]

I am really sorry about Saucy! I lost a young horse to stiffle OCD after a two year struggle with op, box rest, recovery etc. In the end he was still severely lame and had to be PTS and it was absolutely heart breaking.

I don't mean to be confrontational, just asking for more info, but at the time of Thomas's diagnosis the orthopaedic vet (one of the best in the UK) told me x-rays would not show up OCD, only arthroscopy would show the damage to the cartiledge. Did I misunderstand this? If he is right x-rays, regardless of the cost, would not help much.

 

[GinnieRedwings]

To all who have lost their dream horse for whatever reason, I know how heartbreaking it is.

Having read up and researched OCD and its potential causes, I have personally come to the following conclusions - this is my understanding (and may be wrong!) and a quick summary of the masses of information I have absorbed:

- There is currently no proven genetic link to OCD
- That being said, there seems to be a general agreement of some horses showing a "predisposition" - Which in my view seems to indicate there IS a genetic element, though it is too tenuous to be scientifically proven beyond doubt - which would make it difficult to identify in breeding stock
- A "predisposed" youngster may or may not develop OCD according to environmental factors - Again, even if say, a stallion was "predisposed" - as in he could potentially pass that predisposition on to his offspring - but had himself NOT developed OCD due to good environmental factors, x-rays would not show lesions and no one would be any the wiser
- Virtually all Warmbloods and Thoroughbred are thought to be "predisposed" -Does that mean we ought to cull all WBs & TBs?
- OCD normally will start "showing" around 7 months old - Within a month or two of weaning in most cases
- There seems to be a strong correlation between management at weaning and incidence of OCD (particularly centred around feeding and turnout) - The exponential increase in OCD - as described by Alec - seem to be corresponding closely with "advances" in feed quality
- The levels of copper absorbed by the mare in the last term of pregnancy appear to have a huge influence on the prognosis of the predisposed youngster - Not whether or not it develops OCD, but how severe it is, how well the animal functions in later life - diet, again

The conclusion I have drawn is... it may be impossible to eradicate the genetic element - without culling every breeding sports horse - but with careful management of youngstock, it may be possible to minimise the incidence of the condition.

 

[FairyLights]

I've just Googled OCD and it makes for interesting reading. It seems that genetics and feeding play a big part. regaring feeding its thought a mineral inbalance /not enough/too much minerals may be to blame, especially if the animal is predisposed becuse of its genes. Also its thought that feeding grain, traditional feeds affects the insulin level in the horse which leads to the bone/cartlidge area being "malnurished" ,lack of blood supply to that area and so the cartilidge dies. They say feeding a balanced mineral ration and calories through fats rather than starch may be a way forward, and to eliminate the "bad" genes of course. And not to let the horse get too weighty/too fat. I just hope and pray that my weanlings will never suffer from this terrible condition.

 

[tuppence's fortune]

i think it took real guts to write that letter and also try and make people more aware of OCD and you should be really proud of yourselves. i personal have not experienced OCD but i could believe that some of the horses i have owned in the past and poss some i own now my have it and i would love it if you could pm me with more info.

as for the responsibility of the stallion owner to get theirs tested for it. i think it is a great idea and would gladdly pay £800 to know. i do also think that the mare that is coming to said stallion should be tested too. if it is a brood mare or just a one off, so to speak. expensive yes maybe but worth it in the long run.
not all stallion owners will though and as you said yourself not all of them will willingly tell you if there stallion has it or not.

im sorry to hear about saucy and again you should be proud of yourself for trying to make people more aware x

 

[cumbriamax]

it might be a good idea to include x-rays in inspections/gradings

 

[Irishlife]

X-Rays are part of the approval process for ISH stallions as part of the veterinary panel evaluations.

X-Rays are optional for mares that go forward for evaluation and inspection.

 

[coreteam1]

I am really sorry about Saucy! I lost a young horse to stiffle OCD after a two year struggle with op, box rest, recovery etc. In the end he was still severely lame and had to be PTS and it was absolutely heart breaking.

I don't mean to be confrontational, just asking for more info, but at the time of Thomas's diagnosis the orthopaedic vet (one of the best in the UK) told me x-rays would not show up OCD, only arthroscopy would show the damage to the cartiledge. Did I misunderstand this? If he is right x-rays, regardless of the cost, would not help much.

Sorry to hear about your horse, it's so devastating isn't it. My vet at the time was Neal Ashton from Gibsons in Leicestershire, he is a very well known vet and use to write a column in some of the horse magazines. I can remember thinking she would probably have navicular or something similar and then was surprised when he told me she had OCD and it was in her elbow. I hadn't even heard of it and didn't know anything about it. I can definitely remember clearly that he showed me her X-Rays. Saucy didn't have anything else done to diagnose this. I remember seeing the lesions (OCD Cysts) on the bad elbow compared to her good one.
I think it can be hard to detect in the early stages of OCD. Perhaps my mares lesions were visible due to it's location or severity, I don't know?

 

[coreteam1]

X-Rays are part of the approval process for ISH stallions as part of the veterinary panel evaluations.

X-Rays are optional for mares that go forward for evaluation and inspection.

Saucy was bred in Ireland and shipped here just before I bought her. She was bred at an Agricultural College but I forget the name of the college now, although it's written on her passport.

I wouldn't know if her sire or dam had bred other youngsters that had developed this condition, I will dig out her passport for her breeding.

 

[Anastasia]

Thank you for posting this and I am sorry to hear about your mare. Am glad that they published your letter, as it does raise a lot of valid points.

This was taken from there:
The KWPN began selecting against OCD in 1987. Starting that year, approved stallions were required to test negative for the disease. Initially, only stallions' hocks were examined for OCD; then in 2003, a mandate was issued to examine stallions' stifles as well. The current selection procedures are effective. Because OCD is a heritable disease, its occurrence is reduced when OCD-positive stallions are consistently banned from breeding.

Maybe Stallion and mare owners/stud owners should read this and perhaps in the future we could breed quality horses to last a life time?

The KWPN have been x-raying stallions for many years, and despite this they still have a high incidence of OCD.

They have done a lot of studies and did a huge study a couple of years ago whereby they took a large selection of weanlings and had them x-rayed. The NEVER published those results and I heard that one of their biggest selling stallions who was x-rayed free of OCD was found to produce the condition, so they did not publish the results as it would have affected certain stallions. So x-rays alone do not solve the issue.

I had a discussion with one of the x-ray companies in Holland who do the majority of the x-rays for the KWPN stallion selections. It was a very interesting conversation.

He said that they would like to x-ray a selection of foals and then re x-ray them as 2 year olds, because they only x-ray them at 2.5 years of age. The reason for this is that he states that foals could have OCD as a foal (not necessarily show any outward signs), but if they get the right conditions for growth, and grow at a steady rate then as a 2.5 year old they could show no signs at all of OCD on x-ray. Likewise the other way round as well. He puts a lot of OCD down to the conditions a young horse goes through while it is growing (i.e. right nutrients, exercise and steady growth etc).

 

[sallyf]

You might be better googling Subchondral bone cysts on the elbow rather than OCD it will give you more of an insight into what is a very rare condition.
We have had a boarding WB yearling that has been operated on for the same problem this year and our vets have definately said that this condition is hereditary and that the filly mustnt be bred from (as our vets are Rossdales i am inclined to believe them).
Mare was boarded here from 7 months pregnant ,foaled here and then lived here with my own weanlings.
All have been fed exactly the same ,the only differance being that my foals are bred differantly and live out from a month old and are out as much as possible wheras the foal with the bone cyst lived in at night and was shown with the mare(i dont believe this was a factor).
She then lived out at weaning full time.
Foal (1st foal)was small at birth as mare hadnt done it overly well and needed a plasma transfusion as had a low Igg but then did very well.
For me part of the problem was the differance in size between mare and stallion in both bone and size as the foal just kept growing and growing both in bone diameter and height to get to what its genetics were telling it.

 

[woodlander]

There are really knowledgeable posts here from Alec and Ginny. They summarise well where we are in relation to OCD. In my opinion it is genetically now endemic. Even with German Studbook X rays stallions are licensed with "chips"..which is mostly OCD. In itself, in many cases, this condition is not a problem depending on the location and shape of the chip. Thoroughbreds are often X rayed as yearlings and if there are chips they are operated on. My understanding is, annecdotal only, maybe 20% will have chips. Another piece of annecdotal info is that in one German Studbook less than 50% of stallions presented for licensing will have Grade I X rays.

Clearly, the condition is endemic as Ginny says. Predisposiition is widespread. Given that when you breed you are breeding with inherited genetic material, you could, in theory, X ray a stallion and find nothing but still be inheriting OCD from the stallions parents. The Zangersheide approach of X raying and not breeding from any animals with OCD signs has not made much difference. We are where we are.

The key is husbandry. The right nutritional and mineral balances, movement and turnout ON HARD GROUND, and patience. We had a yearling X rayed with signs of OCD in the hind fetlock but two years later re X raying showed nothing. She was sold as a riding horse and has carried on sound apart from the odd soft tissue injury ever since. Many early signs can lead to nothing for the longterm. The German study on OCD and turnout particularly supported the requirement for movement on a hard or firm surface.

All but one of our warmblood stallions are x rayed but we have found more issue with mare families where there is a strong tendency to deliver big foals. We managed the nutrition of the broodmare pre foaling even more closely than the post partum and foal feeding. The incidence, even in this mare line, is small and the results not catastrophic for sport. Years ago we had a yearling from one of earliest Dutch mares who had OCD in her hock as a yearling (not X rayed but diagnosed as probable by the vet). She was v. fast growing. We bred subsequently from her with an Anglo Arab as I felt that arab genes are quite "clean"(again only an opinion) and she bred not a single foal with any signs of the condition. None of her daughters were broodmares nor her sons kept entire, but they were successful in sport.

It also occurs to me that we hear so much more now because of media capability such as forums that we perhaps believe that the problem is greater than it was when in fact it is only being recorded more often.

 

[coreteam1]

The key is husbandry. The right nutritional and mineral balances, movement and turnout ON HARD GROUND, and patience. We had a yearling X rayed with signs of OCD in the hind fetlock but two years later re X raying showed nothing. She was sold as a riding horse and has carried on sound apart from the odd soft tissue injury ever since. Many early signs can lead to nothing for the long term. The German study on OCD and turnout particularly supported the requirement for movement on a hard or firm surface.

I agree that feeding correctly and lifestyle for the youngsters plays the main part in this. The study I was sent really based it conclusion on conditions the youngsters were kept in.

Excellent point regarding the X-Rays of a stallion and mare, both may be clear, however may have inherited it from their parents.

My sister is looking for a stallion for her mare for 2011, so I may be asking for feeding advice! We loved Marie and Rockstar, how do his youngsters fair?

 

[woodlander]

He is x rayed and has one chip. We did nothing with it because it was in an OK place and has clearly not affected his performance.

To my knowledge out of about 80 foals he has had two with OCD. One had the chip removed and is competing very successfully. The other I only heard about 2nd hand so I don't know yet. Like other big breeders I am not too concerned about OCD as it would be like being Canute with the waves. If you are going to breed you are going to get some of it.

It would be great if Germany released their study of OCD in bloodlines but of course they wont because it is everywhere and for a time it would kill the big brand horses few of whom have perfect x rays.

I am glad you like Rocky with Maria. I think it is going well towards Grand Prix and they are training hard together for some Small Tour stuff abroad next year.

In the end, breeding horses is like family genetics. My husbands family has arthritis, high blood pressure and migraine. His father died at 60 from high blood pressure but had not been to the doctor until the week before, for over twenty years! Armed with this information, the family have been able to take protective and corrective action. On my side, we have strokes, cancer and kidney problems. Our children would appear to have none of these issues at this point but have a couple of new ones. There are few 100% perfect examples of any species so the trick is to manage what you think could be there. Genetic engineering would improve a lot of these issues and maybe later there will be time to invest in engineering away the predisposition for OCD.

 

[Booboos]

This is the whole of Thomas's story if anyone is interested (OP I hope you don't think I am hijaking!)

Thomas was seen by Graeme Monroe who is a specialist orthopaedic vet, he told me at the time that he was treating 1 horse with OCD a month. Thomas presented with locking patellas but did not appear lame even after flexion tests. When rest did not resolve the problem he went to the practice and I trotted him endlessly up and down but 3 vets could not agree whether he was lame or not - at the time he had qualified for BD regionals at novice and was competing elementary. Then they nerveblocked one hind and it became immediately apparent that he was extremely lame in both legs but as you could not compare one to the other you could not see it. The vet said x-rays would not show cartiledge damage so we went straight for arthroscopy. At that stage he had an 80% chance of making a recovery to competition work.

The arthroscopy revealed some of the worst OCD the vet had seen, but op went well. He then spent 5 months in compete box rest and a further 4 months in box rest with very gradual return to work. During this time he was very difficult and I did not succeed in keeping him entirely calm which may have affected his recovery. Six months into his work programme he was cantering, was put back in a field, re-assessed and the vet said he now had a 99% chance of being fine so he didn't need to see him again. A further 6 months down the line (a total of 18 months since diagnosis) his patella started locking again and I could feel stiffness through his whole body. The problem had returned so he was retired in a field. Unfortunately he was too young, never settled and was PTS 4 months later.

 

[cundlegreen]

"The key is husbandry. The right nutritional and mineral balances, movement and turnout ON HARD GROUND, and patience. We had a yearling X rayed with signs of OCD in the hind fetlock but two years later re X raying showed nothing. She was sold as a riding horse and has carried on sound apart from the odd soft tissue injury ever since. Many early signs can lead to nothing for the longterm. The German study on OCD and turnout particularly supported the requirement for movement on a hard or firm surface."

An interesting point. I read that many years ago there was research in Australia into the growth and soundness of young TB's in training. They found that yearlings who had been trained on a very hard surface had much denser bone and stayed sounder.
However, my horses are kept on water meadows with light sandy soil, and I have never had a sniff of OCD in anything I've bred. Mine are all Welsh or Welsh/TB, so possibly genetic? When I took my foals to the BEF Futuity at Writtle, I noticed that the warmblood bred foal before mine had very enlarged fetlock joints. The vet there, Jane Nixon asked me what ground mine were turned out on, as she had seen so many big jointed foals that day. She had put it done to the very dry hard ground, but I wasn't convinced by that. I agree that a lot of it is feed related, BUT more so a vitamin/mineral imbalance due possibly to soil deficiency. If any of you are interested, there is a fascinating book by Pat Coleby called Natural Horse Health (or something like it). She considers that a lot of the modern horse problems including vices are due to this inbalance. I have been feeding seaweed meal ad lib to mine this summer, and they all looked fantastic in their coats unlike a lot of "bleached" coats that I saw that were blamed on all the sun! As both of my foals scored the highest vet score of the Futurity, I'd like to think I'm doing something right!!

 

[Alexart]

Great post, so sorry about the loss of your horse.
I have bred friesians and partbred friesians for 10yrs now, this breed is very prone to OCD like all the draft/warmblood types - the majority of friesian stallions going to the keurings fail on x-rays showing it up - but what I think is stupid is that most of these horses are broken in at 2 sometimes younger, kept in show condition and stabled, because it is a stallion, so taking them out of the gene pool just because of that isn't a great idea. I do think it is genetic to some extent - ie. just the size of a horse.
We have had it on our website for years that feeding/exercise and general management are all factors that contribute to a horse getting OCD - do people listen - sometimes!!

I think it is on the increase now more than ever not just because it is being recognised more but because of our management/training and what is expected of our horses has changed and also more so than the rest I think is the type of horses we are breeding and favoring to use now has changed.
More large ie. 16.2Hh+ horses are being bred now as people have got taller and heavier so require bigger animals, they are often started young as everyone is in such a hurry and they LOOK mature. I know with friesians and warmbloods that can be as young as 2, to see if they are worth spending money on to train etc and to get the fastest return on their investment, you see jumping competitions for 3 and 4 yr old animals - when really they should only just have started under saddle and then people wonder why they are knackered at 10!!
Or they are put in foal at 2 or 3 which is a pet peeve of mine - they often wouldn't consider riding them at that age but are happy to have them carry the equivalent of a heavy rider 24/7 and feed that rider from it's own resources!!

Of course all these big heavy warmbloods/friesians etc have alot of growing to do and muscling up so they can support their own weight let alone that of a rider, and under heavy exercise routines, but are rarely given the chance to finish growing before being sat on and pushed. We always tell anyone we sell to not to break in youngsters under 4yrs old, yet you hear some owners saying their 2 or 3yr old horse really likes being ridden - and other such stupid excuses - as if a horse has the brains to realise the damage it's doing to it's joints!!

Also I think we have seen an explosion in the last 20yrs or so of feed companies producing massive amounts of different feeds in shiny eye catching bags etc. for every type of horse and marketing them very well - making the owner guilty that they are not feeding the latest supplement! Some of the recommended amounts you feed are huuuge - I only feed my broodmares stud mix for the last 3 months, they do have vitamins though, at half or less what they say on the tin as they would be super morbidly obese if I did - I hate to think if someone did feed what they say to a good doer!!!
We do understand nutrition better now more than ever and people, especially top riders who have an enormous amount of influence, are realising actually horses need to be kept the way they have evolved to ie. fibre, fibre and more fibre!! But what people forget is the feed company is there to make money - they don't care if you stuff your horse full of their product and 3yrs down the line it's crippled.
I've seen so many people - especially on livery yards, where there is plenty of peer pressure, feeding horses that really don't need to be on hard feed purely because they are seen as cruel if they don't and because they have been advised to do so by a feed company or their friends. I saw one morbidly obese 3yr old appaloosa being fed tons of hard feed with one haynet - 'he is a bit fat don't ya know!' - as he was now being long lined for 20mins a day so she thought that was hard work so needed feeding - he was also rugged - in spring!!:O
Horses are designed to loose weight in the winter and put it on in the summer - how many people now actually do that?, it's seen as a bad thing if you can see a few ribs on a youngster at the end of winter!! How many horses do you see in lovely shiny show condition all year round, then the owner is struggling with grazing muzzles and strip grazing etc all summer trying to keep the weight off an already good condition horse - purely because we see these fat shiny horses in magazines/shows etc all year round so that is what people expect to see.

The rug industry has also boomed - how many people think it's cruel to have a horse in a field in frosty weather with no rug on? - the RSPCA saying on the news this week about masses of well meaning public ringing them up after seeing a horse without a rug on in the snow says it all!! People expect to see a horse wearing a rug outside and now even inside as this is portrayed by magazines as the norm - you don't see cows with rugs on and yet they have the same length coat as a horse and manage just fine as long as they have fibre to keep them warm internally - I can't see farmers off out to buy the latest purple sparkly wug for their herd of beef cows!!! - now there's an image!!!
I've personally never used rugs on youngsters as I feel it restricts their movements at a time when they are growing the most and need to use their muscles/joints to the full extent if they need to - it's like us putting a child in a full suit of armor for years and then expecting them to be able to move properly when it's taken off! - not a great analogy but I couldn't think of a better one!! OK if you have no shelter and live in an exposed location a light rain sheet in the worst of weather is fine as it's only short term but some keep rugs on perfectly fluffy youngsters all winter!

Then there's lunging - peoples lives are more busy than ever before so gone are the days when you long lined a youngster for weeks - lunging is quick, easy requiring little skill if done badly, and requires very little physical fitness on the part of the rider - yet how many unbalanced still growing babies do you see doing seriously tight circles for 20 mins or more, or on a horse walker - alot?!!

In all the horses we have sold only one friesian developed OCD - he was rugged to the eyeballs, stuffed with hard feed, stabled for long periods of time especially in the winter as it was cold and he is only a baby! - sigh!! And sure enough at 3 he was diagnosed with OCD and will now be a pasture pet, upon speaking with the owner repeatedly trying to tell her to leave the horse be a horse she wouldn't listen, turns out this was her 4th horse with OCD - the others ranged in breed from irish sport horse, cob and a TB - all kept the same way from youngsters. I asked her if she thought it was her management that had done it - certainly not she replied they have always been kept like royalty and have never wanted for anything!! - sigh - sadly she's by far not the only one who thinks like this!!!

I think more facts need to be brought to peoples attention and not swept under the carpet so people realise what exactly they are doing to their animal on the inside so that their pet lasts as long as possible. I'm sure people are well meaning but I think people do personify their well loved pet too much when they stick the 3rd duvet with full neck cover on, in it's 12 x 12 cage, kept in it 24/7 with fully banked shavings bed - because there has been a touch of frost, 1 haynet and a bucket of fat and shiny supergrow mix, thinking they are doing the best for Fluffyfrufru who is only a yearling but must be cold because we are - and he's so cuuute in his purple wug!!
I think though the horse industry is a very slow one to change its ways - people do things because they have always done so, and maybe got away with it so therefore it's fine and why change. For example I've listed all the genetic problems I can find - requires alot of digging as they are never mentioned, of the friesian horse on my website - went down like a lead balloon and people in the breed start to slag you off - I couldn't care less personally - but you can see why people don't stick their hand up and question things - it's not what they want to hear!!! I've found the ones that do listen are more often than not people who are new to horses and are coming from outside the industry - they are far more open to new ideas - so maybe that is the way forward for change?
Mention money though and you may get more people pricking their ears up!!!

 

[Rollin]

Sorry to hear about your horse, it's so devastating isn't it. My vet at the time was Neal Ashton from Gibsons in Leicestershire, he is a very well known vet and use to write a column in some of the horse magazines. I can remember thinking she would probably have navicular or something similar and then was surprised when he told me she had OCD and it was in her elbow. I hadn't even heard of it and didn't know anything about it. I can definitely remember clearly that he showed me her X-Rays. Saucy didn't have anything else done to diagnose this. I remember seeing the lesions (OCD Cysts) on the bad elbow compared to her good one.
I think it can be hard to detect in the early stages of OCD. Perhaps my mares lesions were visible due to it's location or severity, I don't know?

I had my CB filly x-rayed at 13 months for my own peace of mind. I sent the x-rays to a well known Equine Hospital in East Anglia for a second opinion. No problems. I am sure if x-rays were not sufficient they would have advised me. I also have x-rays for her sire and dam. We will be x-raying our Shagya and ShagyaxCB fillies early next year after weaning.

 

[Holly831]

More large ie. 16.2Hh+ horses are being bred now as people have got taller and heavier so require bigger animals, they are often started young as everyone is in such a hurry and they LOOK mature. I know with friesians and warmbloods that can be as young as 2, to see if they are worth spending money on to train etc and to get the fastest return on their investment, you see jumping competitions for 3 and 4 yr old animals - when really they should only just have started under saddle and then people wonder why they are knackered at 10!!
Or they are put in foal at 2 or 3 which is a pet peeve of mine - they often wouldn't consider riding them at that age but are happy to have them carry the equivalent of a heavy rider 24/7 and feed that rider from it's own resources!!
Agree totally!!

Of course all these big heavy warmbloods/friesians etc have alot of growing to do and muscling up so they can support their own weight let alone that of a rider, and under heavy exercise routines, but are rarely given the chance to finish growing before being sat on and pushed. We always tell anyone we sell to not to break in youngsters under 4yrs old, yet you hear some owners saying their 2 or 3yr old horse really likes being ridden - and other such stupid excuses - as if a horse has the brains to realise the damage it's doing to it's joints!!

IMO the bigger the horse the MORE time they need to mature.
Also I think we have seen an explosion in the last 20yrs or so of feed companies producing massive amounts of different feeds in shiny eye catching bags etc. for every type of horse and marketing them very well - making the owner guilty that they are not feeding the latest supplement! Some of the recommended amounts you feed are huuuge - I only feed my broodmares stud mix for the last 3 months, they do have vitamins though, at half or less what they say on the tin as they would be super morbidly obese if I did - I hate to think if someone did feed what they say to a good doer!!!
We do understand nutrition better now more than ever and people, especially top riders who have an enormous amount of influence, are realising actually horses need to be kept the way they have evolved to ie. fibre, fibre and more fibre!! But what people forget is the feed company is there to make money - they don't care if you stuff your horse full of their product and 3yrs down the line it's crippled.
I've seen so many people - especially on livery yards, where there is plenty of peer pressure, feeding horses that really don't need to be on hard feed purely because they are seen as cruel if they don't and because they have been advised to do so by a feed company or their friends. I saw one morbidly obese 3yr old appaloosa being fed tons of hard feed with one haynet - 'he is a bit fat don't ya know!' - as he was now being long lined for 20mins a day so she thought that was hard work so needed feeding - he was also rugged - in spring!!:O
Horses are designed to loose weight in the winter and put it on in the summer - how many people now actually do that?, it's seen as a bad thing if you can see a few ribs on a youngster at the end of winter!! How many horses do you see in lovely shiny show condition all year round, then the owner is struggling with grazing muzzles and strip grazing etc all summer trying to keep the weight off an already good condition horse - purely because we see these fat shiny horses in magazines/shows etc all year round so that is what people expect to see.

The rug industry has also boomed - how many people think it's cruel to have a horse in a field in frosty weather with no rug on? - the RSPCA saying on the news this week about masses of well meaning public ringing them up after seeing a horse without a rug on in the snow says it all!! People expect to see a horse wearing a rug outside and now even inside as this is portrayed by magazines as the norm - you don't see cows with rugs on and yet they have the same length coat as a horse and manage just fine as long as they have fibre to keep them warm internally - I can't see farmers off out to buy the latest purple sparkly wug for their herd of beef cows!!! - now there's an image!!!

Well we can get cow print rugs for horses so why not horse print rugs forcows!!

I've personally never used rugs on youngsters as I feel it restricts their movements at a time when they are growing the most and need to use their muscles/joints to the full extent if they need to - it's like us putting a child in a full suit of armor for years and then expecting them to be able to move properly when it's taken off! - not a great analogy but I couldn't think of a better one!! OK if you have no shelter and live in an exposed location a light rain sheet in the worst of weather is fine as it's only short term but some keep rugs on perfectly fluffy youngsters all winter!

I totally agree! I have been called cruel so far this year as I have a 6 month old colt and a yearling filly out 24/7 UNRUGGED in the snow!! Although their coats get covered they are warm, just shows what a good job their coats do! Mine do have access to a field shelter and plenty of natural screening too and ad lib hay/haylage I have 2 horses that are rugged both ridden horses and both clipped so the rug is replacing what I have taken off

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=475290794850&set=a.475284964850.261547.567509850

Then there's lunging - peoples lives are more busy than ever before so gone are the days when you long lined a youngster for weeks - lunging is quick, easy requiring little skill if done badly, and requires very little physical fitness on the part of the rider - yet how many unbalanced still growing babies do you see doing seriously tight circles for 20 mins or more, or on a horse walker - alot?!!

Another pet hate of mine! Ideally I like my youngsters to be 4+ before they are touched. They are handled, taught to lead etc as youngsters and then allowed to be what they are...and that is babies. Having just sold a rising 4 year old the yard she has gone to cannot believe how chilled and well behaved she is. They asked if she was a one off but ALL my youngsters are similar. I know gentetics plays a part but I do believe that nuture plays a huge part in the life of a young horse and the correct handling (ie little!!) as youngsters seems to give a much nicer horse in the long term and hopefully one with a long and sound career

I think more facts need to be brought to peoples attention and not swept under the carpet so people realise what exactly they are doing to their animal on the inside so that their pet lasts as long as possible. I'm sure people are well meaning but I think people do personify their well loved pet too much when they stick the 3rd duvet with full neck cover on, in it's 12 x 12 cage, kept in it 24/7 with fully banked shavings bed - because there has been a touch of frost, 1 haynet and a bucket of fat and shiny supergrow mix, thinking they are doing the best for Fluffyfrufru who is only a yearling but must be cold because we are - and he's so cuuute in his purple wug!!

Not saying babies don't look very cute in their little rugs or that rugs don't have there place ( I had a very sick foal this year that needed the extra warmth for the first few weeks) but generally allowing them to be 'free' of the weight of rugs and unrestricted movement has to be a good thing, sadly I sold this foal at 6 months to what I thought was a knowleadgable home to now be told that he is in 24/7 and rugged as it is too cold for him and that when he is allowed turnout he is on his own because they didn't want to risk him getting hurt

So sorry to the OP for the loss of Saucy. It is an awful thing to lose any horse but so sad to lose one so young.
Sorry to go off topic but I do believe the whole way we now keep horses, especially youngsters needs looking at if we are to move forward as British Breeders turning out quality horses that have long and sound careers ahead of them.

 

[Rollin]

Alexart I really like your post. Lots of good sense.

I was told by one feed company that I was not feeding my CB's enough hard feed!!! I would never dream of feeding them what they recommend.

In France breeders who want to obtain financial rewards from the French National Stud HAVE to compete their horses at 3yo under saddle. I recently watched the French Championships for 3YO SF what a variation in the quality and ability at that age - not for me.

As well as CB's I breed Shagya Arabs, Shagya France think 3years old is too young as does the foundation stud for the breed in Hungary.

Tall horses - again I totally agree with your comments. It took a million years for the horse to evolve from a forest dweller to a 13hh horse/pony ridden by Romans and Greeks.

In the middle ages the Cleveland Bay was a pack horse which stood at about 15hh. Today many stand at 17hh or even bigger. I actually set out to buy small CB's - a bit unusual and all stand at 15.2hh/15.3hh.

 

[milo'n'molly]

He is x rayed and has one chip. We did nothing with it because it was in an OK place and has clearly not affected his performance.

To my knowledge out of about 80 foals he has had two with OCD. One had the chip removed and is competing very successfully. The other I only heard about 2nd hand so I don't know yet. Like other big breeders I am not too concerned about OCD as it would be like being Canute with the waves. If you are going to breed you are going to get some of it.

It would be great if Germany released their study of OCD in bloodlines but of course they wont because it is everywhere and for a time it would kill the big brand horses few of whom have perfect x rays.

I am glad you like Rocky with Maria. I think it is going well towards Grand Prix and they are training hard together for some Small Tour stuff abroad next year.

In the end, breeding horses is like family genetics. My husbands family has arthritis, high blood pressure and migraine. His father died at 60 from high blood pressure but had not been to the doctor until the week before, for over twenty years! Armed with this information, the family have been able to take protective and corrective action. On my side, we have strokes, cancer and kidney problems. Our children would appear to have none of these issues at this point but have a couple of new ones. There are few 100% perfect examples of any species so the trick is to manage what you think could be there. Genetic engineering would improve a lot of these issues and maybe later there will be time to invest in engineering away the predisposition for OCD.

How refreshing for someone to be so open about a stallion they are standing