Mega rant - showing days may well be over

HiPo'sHuman

HiPo'sHuman

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God does anyone ever get to the point where they're well and truly fed up of showing? I'm biased in the respect that I adore my pony but I can be totally objective and I'm never disappointed with a low placing if that's all he deserves on the day. Been out today, pony went foot perfect, totally deserved a top three placing. What did he get - nothing :-| Apprently my jockey was too big on him, nope, she definitely isn't...both were weighed last week and she's easily within 20% of his weight. Went under the same judge earlier in the season and he didn't comment on size then? The overall picture is lovely and well respected people have also backed this up, it's not just me, lol. Got the mark sheet and he had the lowest confo score and second to last ride mark, i just don't get it? It's so frustrating when you've put in so much hard work to not get any acknowledgement for it. Yes this is only one judges opinion but I'm so fed up of the bias in showing...really tempted to call it a day!
 
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Showing is the judges opinion on the day, the pony may have been foot perfect but others may have also been just as perfect in the eyes of the judge, there is always another day and another judge, you know to avoid this one in future as he didn't like your pony and may have felt the picture is not as good as it could be, being within 20% of his weight suggests the rider is close to 20% and that is pushing towards what may be a less than ideal impression.
If it is a Highland I am sure he can easily carry more but today the judge would have seen others that gave a nicer picture in his eyes, is that being biased I am not sure it is, if he had put it down because he didn't like the breed, the colour or the riders jacket then that would be biased but to give low confo and ride marks does not prove he was biased just that he preferred other ponies today, it is all part of showing there will be judges that like your pony, ones that don't and a few that mark them up one day and down the next, I have done enough showing over the years to know that if the animal is good enough there is always another day and no reason to give up after one bad outing.
 
Oh crikey! MARKS! When will they do away with those ruddy things! People get so strung up about a blomin number! It means NOTHING! Well Ok it means your placing on the day but in the grand scheme of things they mean jack all! If you didn't have a set of numbers in front of you would you really be as peeved at your placings? No! You'd put those judges down as not liking your type of pony and will know not to show under them again.

I went out showing today with 3 homebreds. Some of the judging was just laughable but it actually wasn't in my classes so it didn't affect me. Showing is what showing is - someone elses opinion of your pony on 1 single day of a year of 365 days!

Suck it up, forget the day and move on!
 
I absolutely get where you are coming from. I was -very- please with my second place at a big show this year, my horse went beautiful for me and the 1st place was stunning. I did get quite annoyed at another show though where my conformationally, showing ability etc were superior but judge picked a horse that has come last in EVERY show for 1st and champion...but we all had to laugh because it was a donkey judge...and the horse that won looked like a donkey! I absolutely didn't mind not winning that one hahahah
 
EKW said:
Oh crikey! MARKS! When will they do away with those ruddy things! People get so strung up about a blomin number! It means NOTHING! Well Ok it means your placing on the day but in the grand scheme of things they mean jack all! If you didn't have a set of numbers in front of you would you really be as peeved at your placings? No! You'd put those judges down as not liking your type of pony and will know not to show under them again.

I went out showing today with 3 homebreds. Some of the judging was just laughable but it actually wasn't in my classes so it didn't affect me. Showing is what showing is - someone elses opinion of your pony on 1 single day of a year of 365 days!

Suck it up, forget the day and move on!
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I agree about the marks, I never go and look, it serves no purpose whether you have come first or last as it cannot be changed and is pointless, the only time would be if I was doing WH and wanted to check they had given correct jumping marks, it has been known for them to miss a knockdown.
Showing was so much better when the go round counted for something now it can be a badly behaved pony gets placed that in the old days would have remained at the bottom of the line for good reason, in a big class it may be forgotten that it failed to perform correctly in company.
 
My pity party has finished now - the gin may have helped �� I'm not new to showing by any means, I know what it's like, just really bothered me today. This was our A, jockey is about 5'2" and a tiny size 6/8, I honestly don't think she even looks near the 20% mark. Especially in comparison to others I've seen! Was quite looking forward to going under this judge again, pony did very well last time despite a wrong leg (he's a novice). Pony is still young and relatively narrow in front, we've discussed selling him as a FR/junior hoys or even LR, hopefully this will suit him better...We'll do a bit of dressage over winter and I'm considering taking next year off from showing, hasn't really been fun lately. Probably good to have a break when you're feeling so disillusioned with it!
 
That's showing for you ! saw some not so good judging at equifest last week but that's just what it is someone's opinion I think you just have to try not to take it so seriously.
 
I show county level and have days likes that too, esp with marks how can one judge give me 25 for confo but another 40+ it must be the day I put the wrong legs on him 😉
I just have to give myself a kick up the bottom or get someone else to do it.
I have just been to the Dublin horse show (can highly recommend a visit) and it was refreshing to have judges that are not on the Irish scene (so were not judging the riders) judging what was actually in front of them not just preconceived results.
I love my showing but it is hard to keep the motivation sometimes.
 
We have spottys, no one likes a spotty in the show ring.
My sister is taking her two year old out for experience, he has done five shows since may.
First one judge did actually like him but marked her down because he wasn't running fully, the ground was full of ruts and the lovely fell that won the owner sprained her ankle running over the ruts.

The second/third and forth he came last, the judges in those bres Welshs, so the chunky native types came first even though they were playing up kicking out and rearing. The baby spotty in all of his shows is foot perfect.

The one today he came fifth out of seven, must have liked him today and. A friends wb mare came third and that was well deserved as she moved beautifully.

We get a bit disappointed but this is for his education at seeing things.
When he is all grown up he will hopefully be a rc/event spotty 😍 if he ever stops growing 15'3 at the withers at two 😂
 
I have full respect for people that do showing full-time and still have their sanity. it just seems like the most heartbreaking, random judging system. There was a big conference here with showing experts and a lot of people in the crowd asked why could there not be a judging sheet like dressage with sections like rideability, presence, conformation, paces, turnout etc. The argument back was that people would be rushing up to judges afterwards to query their marks. I'm baffled why that system can work in dressage but not showing? I don't see dressage judges having to face a queue of people asking why they got a six.

I am not a showing person at all, but I do wonder why it cannot be transparent like dressage is?
 
paddi22 said:
I have full respect for people that do showing full-time and still have their sanity. it just seems like the most heartbreaking, random judging system. There was a big conference here with showing experts and a lot of people in the crowd asked why could there not be a judging sheet like dressage with sections like rideability, presence, conformation, paces, turnout etc. The argument back was that people would be rushing up to judges afterwards to query their marks. I'm baffled why that system can work in dressage but not showing? I don't see dressage judges having to face a queue of people asking why they got a six.

I am not a showing person at all, but I do wonder why it cannot be transparent like dressage is?
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One reason this is not done is the sheer logistics of it, the judge in the ring is not looking at one animal at a time, dos not have the luxury of sitting with a writer (getting the number of stewards to run horse classes at agri shows is nigh on impossible!) Showing is not dressage, is not run on the same lines and will change out of all recognition if you get what you are asking for.
 
In dressage you are competing against an agreed standard, so the marks seem to be pretty standard, I often know before the judge has said the mark when I am writing.
I showing it more that horse/pony is better than that one, and you are directly comparing the two. You also supposed in dressage to concentrate of the pony for the whole of the test, with about fifteen animal's in the ring I think some judges get muddled in showing.
This is the best show faux par, I of heard of in ages.

''At an affiliated show some years ago I was very pleased to be pulled in second in a very big class , after the go around , on my Fell mare .The pony did a foot perfect show with a stonking gallop and I was therefore somewhat mystified to be pulled in last in the final selection .The rosettes were awarded and the steward was duly dispatched to make the long walk down to the end of the line .Coming to a halt about 5 yards in front of me he announced , in a very loud and officious voice , that the judge had asked him to inform me that heart bar shoes were not allowed in affiliated showing classes .
I thanked him very much for sharing his wisdom with me and assured him that were I ever to have my pony shod I would certainly bear it in mind .I then suggested that he might now like to share this nugget of information with the rider of the black welsh cob that was currently stood in first place .There was a prolonged silence whilst steward , judge,spectators and entire line up contemplated my pony's bare feet and the D's shiny bar shoes .Somewhat pink faces on judge and steward but the line up stayed as it was .

Read more: http://horsegossip.proboards.com/thread/170185/judges-individual-feedback-class-hear#ixzz4pesUt0Dk
 
splash30 said:
I show county level and have days likes that too, esp with marks how can one judge give me 25 for confo but another 40+ it must be the day I put the wrong legs on him 😉
I just have to give myself a kick up the bottom or get someone else to do it.
I have just been to the Dublin horse show (can highly recommend a visit) and it was refreshing to have judges that are not on the Irish scene (so were not judging the riders) judging what was actually in front of them not just preconceived results.
I love my showing but it is hard to keep the motivation sometimes.
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Conformation marks are dependant on what you are up against on the day.
Oftwn judges will give the first horse they see a mark and then use that as a bench mark.
Also some judges mark down certain faults more than other judges or are just better at spotting things.
 
YorksG said:
One reason this is not done is the sheer logistics of it, the judge in the ring is not looking at one animal at a time, dos not have the luxury of sitting with a writer (getting the number of stewards to run horse classes at agri shows is nigh on impossible!) Showing is not dressage, is not run on the same lines and will change out of all recognition if you get what you are asking for.
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Why would it change out of recognition though, I'm genuinely curious? i used to do racehorse to riding horse classes that judges multiple horses and they still gave out a sheet with marks out of ten for each pace, control, obedience, manners etc. It only takes a second to write down a figure. I would be curious why they couldn't implement a better system that was more transparent.
 
That anecdote is brilliant honetpot :D

Paddi - because it's showing and it would lose some of its secret society glamour if you made it transparent :p
 
DabDab said:
That anecdote is brilliant honetpot :D

Paddi - because it's showing and it would lose some of its secret society glamour if you made it transparent :p
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The OP was given marks but didn't like that they were low as in their opinion the pony was "foot perfect" , giving marks is common in most classes now but as I said earlier it does make some parts of the class fairly pointless from the marking point of view and many are more of a dressage test with set shows, the go round counting for nothing, some judges penalising certain things more strongly than others, it doesn't really make it any more transparent but does cause plenty of debate, complaints about the judges, moans because the judge gave a low mark for something the ringside judges couldn't see.

From a judging point of view it would be impossible to give a go round mark for each pony/ horse in a big class full of similar animals, it is so easy to miss something or forget to penalise a blip at the time because you cannot see the number and there are several bays with nothing to distinguish them.
honeypots anecdote is an example of confusing two animals when the judge is under time pressures, they probably made a mental note of a dark hairy they noticed had bar shoes on but forgot to double check or make a note, human error does come into play but without every class taking twice as long I don't see how the judging can ever be perfect or suit everyone all of the time.
 
TBH, when you enter a class you know perfectly well that all you are doing is asking for the judge's opinion of your horse in comparison to the others in the class *on that day*. If you don't want to accept that, it is best that you don't enter.
By the way, foot perfect doesn't really count for much, unless there is a mark, as in WH, for manners, conformation tends to be more important.
 
Orangehorse said:
Which is more important between two ponies - an incorrect strike off at canter, corrected, or the other one back at the knee?
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The correct confo should win over the incorrect pony, a minor blip can be corrected with schooling, even major issues can be but you cannot make the limb any different, hence one with good confo will often go over a pony with less good confo that has done a perfect show, although a series of wrong legs strike offs may be heavily penalised, at a county show recently a pony went from first to last because it went wrong on every change of leg ending with a wrong leg gallop but the top of the line were correctly put together.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
By the way, foot perfect doesn't really count for much, unless there is a mark, as in WH, for manners, conformation tends to be more important.
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I had an ID win a class who misbehaved all through it. Tried to run over me, then wouldn't trot up (first show). He won as he was a strapping big hunter type in a hunter class, the rest were much finer and lacked presence.

Showing is such a funny thing we put ourselves through when you step back and think about it! We wouldn't do it if we thought our horses were ugly ducklings, but are essentially paying for someone to point out your faults :p
 
alainax said:
I had an ID win a class who misbehaved all through it. Tried to run over me, then wouldn't trot up (first show). He won as he was a strapping big hunter type in a hunter class, the rest were much finer and lacked presence.

Showing is such a funny thing we put ourselves through when you step back and think about it! We wouldn't do it if we thought our horses were ugly ducklings, but are essentially paying for someone to point out your faults :p
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Manners are not really taken into account in hand, obviously it helps if they behave well enough to show their paces at their best but a good judge can soon assess movement, confo and type will be everything in a youngstock class, plenty of time to teach them manners by the time they come out under saddle.
 
Not only do judges opinions vary on what they particularly like in a horse/pony they also have differing opinions on what is well schooled and foot perfect!

Your Well schooled, foot perfect show might have looked to the judge over bent, leaning on one rein, front end heavy and not coming through from behind - there's more to a well schooled pony than having it's head in the right place. Some breeds and types naturally look on the forehand, some might feel light in the hand but slop along with their feet.

There are many hundreds of points that could be made.

As for marking showing like dressage! Pft! Nay danger! Its bad enough giving people scores - 50/50 or 60/40 depending on the class! I stewarded today and had a sports horse class which had a marks sheet. Marks were to be awarded as follows - Walk (out of 20) Trot (20) Limbs (15) Head, Neck & Body (15) Attitude (15) Athletisism (15) By heck that took a lot of adding up and I only had 5 in the class! It takes ages to add up and I was doing it as I went then double checking at the end! Showing classes take long enough without adding up bloomin numbers!
 
be positive said:
Manners are not really taken into account in hand, obviously it helps if they behave well enough to show their paces at their best but a good judge can soon assess movement, confo and type will be everything in a youngstock class, plenty of time to teach them manners by the time they come out under saddle.
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Depends on the class as to whether manners play a role or not. A hack, hunter, riding horse, cob, childs show pony, SHP etc. would be expected to be mannerly at all times once they hit the age of 3yo up. Younger they can get away with a wee bit more but not too OTT. Natives and coloureds get away with a little bit more but I don't see why they should! Especially the older animals!
 
EKW said:
Depends on the class as to whether manners play a role or not. A hack, hunter, riding horse, cob, childs show pony, SHP etc. would be expected to be mannerly at all times once they hit the age of 3yo up. Younger they can get away with a wee bit more but not too OTT. Natives and coloureds get away with a little bit more but I don't see why they should! Especially the older animals!
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I meant in in hand classes not when stripped off in a ridden class, I responded to the post about a youngster misbehaving throughout yet still winning, I would expect any ridden horse to be mannerly in the trot up, yes ideally they would all be well mannered but I would forgive a correct 2 year old pretty much anything as long as I could see enough to judge it over a poor quality animal that behaved perfectly.
 
be positive said:
The OP was given marks but didn't like that they were low as in their opinion the pony was "foot perfect" , giving marks is common in most classes now but as I said earlier it does make some parts of the class fairly pointless from the marking point of view and many are more of a dressage test with set shows, the go round counting for nothing, some judges penalising certain things more strongly than others, it doesn't really make it any more transparent but does cause plenty of debate, complaints about the judges, moans because the judge gave a low mark for something the ringside judges couldn't see.

From a judging point of view it would be impossible to give a go round mark for each pony/ horse in a big class full of similar animals, it is so easy to miss something or forget to penalise a blip at the time because you cannot see the number and there are several bays with nothing to distinguish them.
honeypots anecdote is an example of confusing two animals when the judge is under time pressures, they probably made a mental note of a dark hairy they noticed had bar shoes on but forgot to double check or make a note, human error does come into play but without every class taking twice as long I don't see how the judging can ever be perfect or suit everyone all of the time.
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Oh, I wasn't commenting on the scores issue, just on transparency. And the amount of panic what do I wear/do/is my horse OK threads on here, along with the threads from experience showing competitors who are frustrated and baffled is I think testament to the fact that it is a bit of a secret society.

If you enjoy someone telling you that yes you do have a nice horse and that is why you do it then fine, but realistically it is a very strange and curious world and you cannot expect it to make sense to people who spend their time in other disciplines. Other than being useful for young horse life experience it's a fairly emotionally punishing activity to be involved in, and I've certainly never gleaned any notion that those in the showing world wish to improve that in any way.
 
DabDab said:
along with the threads from experience showing competitors who are frustrated and baffled is I think testament to the fact that it is a bit of a secret society.

If you enjoy someone telling you that yes you do have a nice horse and that is why you do it then fine, but realistically it is a very strange and curious world and you cannot expect it to make sense to people who spend their time in other disciplines.
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😂😂😂 try showing a standard Shetland that isn't black 😂😂😂 and if you dare to have something that isn't black it had better be chestnut 😂😂😂😂😂
 
EKW said:
������ try showing a standard Shetland that isn't black ������ and if you dare to have something that isn't black it had better be chestnut ����������
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Haha, yes one of the joys of HHO is learning random things that I would never find out for myself and discovering about Shetland colour faux pas from your posts is one of my favourites
 
be positive said:
The correct confo should win over the incorrect pony, a minor blip can be corrected with schooling, even major issues can be but you cannot make the limb any different, hence one with good confo will often go over a pony with less good confo that has done a perfect show, although a series of wrong legs strike offs may be heavily penalised, at a county show recently a pony went from first to last because it went wrong on every change of leg ending with a wrong leg gallop but the top of the line were correctly put together.
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Yes, I agree. I would put correct conformation above, on balance - depending on everything else of course. Being a judge is not easy, as you are not just looking for "the best one" but then 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc.
 
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