Melanomas in grey horses?

[welshponylover]

So Rocky was vetted on friday, he passed, except for some melanomas around his eyes and his bum...spoke at length with the vet and he said that up to 80% of grey horses have them, and that there is rarely any problems with them and they they rarely turn into cancer, but its worth just keeping an eye on them. Spoke to my instructor and we've decided to go forward with the collection and transfer the rest of the money - we couldnt help think that it wouldnt be a problem with careful observation (vet says you can get them removed...)

Please dont say we've made the wrong decision, we didnt just go ahead and decide it for no reason, we spoke to instructor vet and owner at length but does anyone have a grey with them or has had previous experience?? are they usually a problem or are they just like fair haired people, who need to be careful in the sun and just be kept an eye on??



Love,
Issy & Rocky

 

[attheponies]

Hi when I bought my connie X dapple grey mare 5 years ago the vet pointed out that she had melanomas (under her dock) in the vetting. I wasn't too worried as I've known greys with melanomas going well into their twenties. Sadly my my mare's became quite aggressive about 18 months ago and although I managed them, I sadly lost her through mastitis (probably related) a couple of months ago. Would I still have bought her? Yes, she was fantastic and I loved her to bits. It's just worth keeping a very close eye & you may also find an exclusion in your insurance policy.

 

[welshponylover]

Hi when I bought my connie X dapple grey mare 5 years ago the vet pointed out that she had melanomas (under her dock) in the vetting. I wasn't too worried as I've known greys with melanomas going well into their twenties. Sadly my my mare's became quite aggressive about 18 months ago and although I managed them, I sadly lost her through mastitis (probably related) a couple of months ago. Would I still have bought her? Yes, she was fantastic and I loved her to bits. It's just worth keeping a very close eye & you may also find an exclusion in your insurance policy.

Thank you - i know its a risk, but he is a fab price and my dream horse and i think its worth it...the owner has another mare with them who have never caused any trouble. Sorry about your mare assume you can still insure for injury but just exclude that part?

 

[*hic*]

I thought he was cremello not grey. Has he got the melanomas on black skin or pink skin?

Was it a specialist equine vet that did the vetting?

 

[welshponylover]

he is a cremello, its just that greys are more common for people to relate to. i think on the pink bits but havent seen them so dont know!!

Yep, it was the owner's (who has about 3 of her own) vet who has done hers for years (but also spoke to our local vet)

 

[attheponies]

Hi Yes you can still insure for injury etc it's just that the insurance company might put an exclusion in your policy regarding the melanomas. Try not to worry and just enjoy your lovely new horse - he looks great and I think you will have a huge amount of fun. I wouldn't have swapped my mare for anything and was just unlucky that they became aggressive, my friends gelding had them everywhere but lived to a ripe old age.

 

[*hic*]

The OWNER's vet did the vetting! That would normally be a big no no.

There is a nasty little phrase running round the back of my mind that cremellos are NOT prone to melanomas and if they do occur they are usually malignant.


Sorry.

Has your instructor seen him?

 

[welshponylover]

assume it was owners vet BUT he came from staffordshire and shes in bedfordshire or something...dunno my dad and instructor sorted it out ive been at school!!

yep instructor seen him, spoken to vet, spoken to owner etc etc

also owner doesnt need to sell him, in fact she almost changed her mind cos she quite wanted to keep him for her yard helper to hunt on, so shes not really a dodgy dealer kind... x

 

[Ladylina83]

I've had my mare 9 years now and she had them on her dock on purchase they have increased in size but have presented no problems, my vets said you would be unlikely to find a grey over 10 that doesn't have them

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

MY mare in my sig was a dun started turning rose grey 3.1/2 she has melanomas under her tail they havent caused her any problems , she has had them for a few many years and they haven't changed allot to the naked eye.


She is the sweetest loving mare her temperament hasnt changed despite 5 months box rest . I would say go ahead with her

oh yes I bought her as 15 month old and she is 23 now

A Cremello or Perlino horse is simply a sorrel (cremello) or bay (perlino) horse that has recieved two copies of the "creme" gene. This gene, when in it's single form, makes what would have been a sorrel horse into a palomino, and what would have been a bay horse into a buckskin. Every time a palomino to palomino, buckskin to buckskin or palomino to buckskin cross is made, you have a 25% chance of getting this rare and beautiful coloration, but there's more! Aside from being extremely rare, this coloration makes a horse extremely valuable in the breeding shed. Because a Cremello or Perlino horse has two copies of the "creme" gene, making them homozygous, they can never produce a bay or sorrel foal no matter what they are bred to. Most foals that result from breedings with a Cremello or Perlino will be Palominos or Buckskins. A small precentage of black and gray foals can also be produced as these colors hide the palomino and buckskin coloration.

What a Cremello/Perlino horse is NOT:

Cremello and Perlino horses are NOT albinos. Science has not been able to find any albinos or even albino genes in the ivory champagne (creme and champagne dilutions) overo markings showing pink vs pigment free pinkequine world. Besides which, even though they can have very light colored (almost white) hair, and have pink looking skin, and blue eyes, horses of this coloration do not have the health problems associated with albinos, and their hair, skin and eyes DO contain pigment. The only TRUE white hair and pink skin will be where they have white markings if any. Graphically illustrated to the left, there IS a different between the Cremello/perlino pink and pigment free pink.

cue star and stripe cue sock lilsonofadun dorsal stripe

This SOLID COLORATION has markings like any other color- they can have stars and stripes, socks, and even dorsal stripes if they also happen to carry the dun factor. These horses even have pigment in their eyes. They are nothing like a "glass eye" seen in horses with paint characteristics.

This brings up the second myth about this coloration. As illustrated above, this coloration is different than an "all white" paint. Because of that, understanding that these horses are NOT more prone to sunburn and skin cancers is not hard to do. The rules that apply to bald faced white horses and paints simply do not apply to the Cremello/Perlino horse. To address the issue of cancers more in depth, much research has been done on the subject of skin cancers in horses. The studies show that Appaloosas, Draft Breeds, and Gray horses of any breed are the highest at risk for carcinomas and melanomas. In contrast, no mention was ever made about Cremello or Perlino horses in any study or literature the CPEA has ever been able to find about equine cancers.

Cremello/Perlino horses are NOT Lethal whites, and their coloration does not make them more prone to produce lethal whites either. Lethal whites are caused by one gene, LWO, which can produce the Overo color pattern, and is NOT connected to the "creme" gene. The only way a Cremello or Perlin horse could produce a lethal white would be if it ALSO carried the LWO gene, which is possible for a horse of any coloration. Fortunately, this gene can be tested for, and lethal white foals completely avoided by breeding only to horses that are negative for LWO.

In summary of what a Cremello or Perlino is and is not, aside from standing out from the croud, and the inability to produce a sorrel or bay foal, these horses are no different from any other colored horse. The conformation, performance ability, quality (or lack thereof) found in a horse is determined by its bloodlines and training, NOT by its coloration. A good horse is NEVER a bad color!

The Cremello Dilemma

"The Quarter Horse is a breed, and not a color breed either. But if you breed a Quarter Horse to a Quarter horse and get too much white, they say it's not a Quarter Horse. But if it's a solid color, with no class or conformation, it's still a Quarter Horse. I disagree..." ~~Hank Wiescamp 1979

The AQHA has in its books, the rule 227i (formerly rule 227j) that denies registration to horses with light or pink skin on the body, eyes of bluish cast, and white hair on the body. Because of this rule, any Cremello or Perlino offspring from two Quarter Horse parents are forced into the APHA registry as breeding stock (because the horses in question do not have high white markings, they do not qualify for the regular registry.) The CPEA is fighting to get the rule 227i removed so these horses may be registered with the AQHA where they belong. The AQHA is the last remaining breed registry where this color occurs naturally, that still denies them registration.

Last year the efforts of the CPEA were rewarded when the AQHA removed the "albino" line from rule 227j (now 227i) acknowledging there are no albinos in the equine. The CPEA will be at the AQHA convention again this coming March, and they need your support. If you would like to help, or would like to learn more about these colors, please visit www.doubledilute.com, or Email us. We would love to talk to you!

 

[Ladylina83]

Just to add that she coliced 2years ago and the vet said she had old blood in her passage , we think she has many more internally that were agrivated during pregnancy scans but she has been fine ever since and that is the only colic we've had touch wood she is 19 now d

 

[wattamus]

Talking to my vet about this the other day. She said (full qualified equine vet from a specialist vet practice) that almost all greys have melanomas by the time they are 8, majority of them inside the body. They normally arent mallignant but if your horse gets collic etc it makes it harder to treat, especially as they get older. But tbh i think if this horse is perfect for you then don't panic, every horse has it's drawbacks whether that be price/ conformation or in my case 3 legs that don't work don't not get him if thats the only reason not to I'm afraid it's inevitable with greys don't know about cremellos though. But if you are prepared to pay the vet fees SHOULD he need treatment (he may go through his life without a problem) then go for it!

 

[Clava]

Having known two grey horses die from colic from internal melanomas I would not buy a horse with any, and actually wouldn't buy a grey at all. Apparently non-greys which get melanomas are more likely to have malignant ones than greys. Still, I wouldn't buy a horse with any as there are plenty of good healthy horses out there.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Having known two grey horses die from colic from internal melanomas I would not buy a horse with any, and actually wouldn't buy a grey at all. Apparently non-greys which get melanomas are more likely to have malignant ones than greys. Still, I wouldn't buy a horse with any as there are plenty of good healthy horses out there.

Just because they have melonomas DOES NOT mean they are not healthy
and since most horses with melanomas develop them later in life and they dont cause an isssue I mean how often do you look under your horses taill at his a$$ .?

There are only a few horse colours I would buy .

The main colour is DUN I have only bought one grey pony who sadly isnt here anymore she was dark grey other than that all my horses I have bought are DUN or were .

Personally i would never buy chesnut or bay to me they are common in colour I prefer something more striking and unusual

 

[tasteofchristmaschaos]

I lost my last boy due to internal melanomas at 19, in 24 hours he went from being fine to having to PTS. TBH it would put me off getting a grey (or horse with melanomas) again myself as I found it so hard to go through.

 

[Jnhuk]

If you have a grey, they almost certainly will develop melanomas. I am on my third grey and had my first lad PTS at age 24 and he had melanomas for at least 12 years before they caused him any grief.

My current ISH (almost pure ID) developed several small melanomas at age 7 initially over his parotid gland and now has them round dock and several areas. I cannot see him living as long as my first lad. The parotid one has grown considerably over the last 6 years and will be (I suspect) what will end him when it involves the guttural pouch and other internal structures. We have had many discussions with vets re surgery and other possibly treatments and tried cimetidine and various herbal supplements but nothing has checked it. At the moment though, he gets no special treatment or supplements and is happy as larry. It doesn't seem to affect him but needed to get a special bridle made so not to pressurise the lump.

I would be wary of buying another grey personally but I have known greys with them without problems so depends on where the melanomas are, what age they develop etc..., what size they are already and how much I like the horse. I would be more wary of a horse under 10 with melanomas than a older horse. However, as you said this horse is your dream horse so maybe worth going ahead but please make sure that the vetting vet is NOT the seller's vet to avoid a conflict of interest. As other folks have said, melanomas (Sarcoids and other skin cancers) will be excluded on your insurance.

 

[Clava]

Just because they have melonomas DOES NOT mean they are not healthy
and since most horses with melanomas develop them later in life and they dont cause an isssue I mean how often do you look under your horses taill at his a$$ .?

There are only a few horse colours I would buy .

The main colour is DUN I have only bought one grey pony who sadly isnt here anymore she was dark grey other than that all my horses I have bought are DUN or were .

Personally i would never buy chesnut or bay to me they are common in colour I prefer something more striking and unusual

A melanoma is a tumour and yes they might be benign and slow growing, but still a tumour and with the potential to grow rapidly and spread, to that extent when buying a horse I would at least choose one that didn't have them from the start, there is so much potential for problems with horses so why start with a horse with a problem when you can buy on without any known problems (i.e healthy)

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Well for me not that i normally buy greys because dun is my colour..

It would not put me off if the horse has melonomas.


People and animals get disabilities/ amputations/ illnesses, its just as well people out there don't mind them or they would all be PTS even if they are healthy.


My mare before her lami attack

is 23 has done 3 sponsored rides this year the last being 8 miles a 10 mile and 11 miles One .


That's good enough for me .
.
I would rather buy a 100% sweet matured Grey mare
with melanomas than any bay- black or bay horse.


But that's just me Dun is my way forward

Your right in saying there is so many potential problems with horses.

which are more deadly that effect 1000 horses . look at Hickstead 15 had heart attack.

You can never be 100% sure that illnesses can strike anytime, an be more life threatening than melanomas
colic, broken leg , grass sickness.
You take a risk which ever horse you get .

 

[wattamus]

You take a risk which ever horse you get .

well said, even if i knew all of the problems my mare had and how much it would cosnt to fix before i got her, i would still have her

 

[galaxy]

I lost my horse of a lifetime at 17 to melanomas.

How old is the horse? If it was young with them I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. If he/she is older, possibly, but prepare yourself for possible heartbreak and your insurance may never cover you for colic etc as it would be difficult to prove without opening the horse up that melanomas are not causing it.

I will never buy another grey again. I couldn't go through it twice.

 

[*hic*]

OP basically as you can see you have asked the wrong question Greys and Cremellos are really as different as greys and duns. I am now interested so will try a slightly different thread!

(and will probably get no answers)

 

[Clava]

You take a risk which ever horse you get .

Exactly, which is why I wouldn't start by buying one with a problem as there are enough unknown ones without adding to them with the known ones as well.

Other than health risks I have no obsession with a horse's colour, to me is is rather superficial.

 

[figgy]

hiya , I had a horse vetted last year found out it had melanomas around his face , as i really didnt want to start with a problem horse my vet said to ask the owener if we could scope to see if they had spread inside and this horse had lumps inside aswell, so i just walked away , good luck xx

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

You take a risk which ever horse you get .

Well you can look at it this way at least if you know what the problem is you have it at the back of your mind you could lose him.

Where as with other things colic grass sickness etc for example nothing prepares you for the heartach you get when you loose them
My mare was 100% healthy when i bought her at 15. months old now she has a list of health issues .

Most horses get health issues along the way.

I go buy

temperament
size ( don't like bigger horses than 16.1 )
ability to do what i want
colour


the other risk is you dont know what the horse has done before you buy it , you have to take the previous owners word.

Seeing I love ID so much if hubby would ever let me ( i know he wont) have enough horses donkey already + one he doesn't know about

I would either breed from my mare which he wont let me or I DEF would get another ID ( mare of course ) as I only buy mares ( only gelding i have is palomino ) in my sig. And seeing Dun ID are hard to get I would def buy a grey even tho apart from Bonnie my pony I have only bought Duns.

 

[Jesstickle]

The theory is basically that all greys probably develop melanomas at some point but some don't get documented (horse dies of something unrelated before they are noticed or colics but no PM is done etc).

The genetics of grey horses are very interesting and when you look into it you can see why it is likely! I have read a few papers on the mutations which cause grey colouration so I know where I stand, more or less.

All that said, I still have a grey. If she colics and has to be PTS at 17 so be it. We'll have had *hopefully* 15 years together by then and I'll consider it worth while as I really like the filly.

OP, why not have a little chat with your own vet on Monday to put your mind at rest?

 

[ofcourseyoucan]

if the horse suits you, and does what you want it to do, and is at the right price, and you have taken prof advice from vet then i wouldnt let a couple of pea sized melanomas stop the sale. depends on what size the melanomas are. and they are best left alone. the perfect horse doesnt exist .. they all have something ... you have to weigh up the pros and cons (as melanomas have been noted on vetting this will be excluded on the insurance....) and make your own mind up! Best of luck.

 

[Ibblebibble]

my daughters pony that we sold earlier this year was grey, 15 yr's old and no melanomas!! my big girl who is 16 has had melanomas since before i had her 5 years ago, they have increased under her dock and on her dock, the only effect so far is to make her tail quite curly underneath! i trim the hair short where the melanomas are to stop it getting matted which it does easily. other than that they have not caused her any problems, i am fully aware that they might but it doesn't effect how i feel about her or what we do together
If you are happy with your vets and instructors opinion on the horse you are buying then that's all that matters

 

[Charlie77]

Hello. My old mare had her first melinoma aged 7 she was PTS 3 years ago this month aged 33! Just through old age nothing more...i have known far more go through collic etc. Misfit was an angel the horse of a life time, i was 13 when i was offered her age 14 a v good horse woman warned me off because of the melinoma and her age.

 

[jeeve]

my understanding is that tumours seem to grow slower in horses than people most of the time. So a tumour may not cause an issue for many years or not at all. I have a grey mare with a tumour under tail. We have had her 5-6 years and no issues. I have had friends that have lost grey ponies to tumours, one was aged about 15 years, the other about 30 years old. I would still buy a pony that was grey, it is a risk, but so many with horses. What does put me off with grey horses is washing them constantly to keep them clean.

 

[OldNag]

The kids' pony has some small melanomas under the dock. She's 16 so my view was that it was pretty normal for a grey to have them at that age. I did have her 2 stage vetted and the vet passed her but noted the melanomas and checked that I wasn't overly concerned about them.

I figured that her joints etc all seemed in good nick so it was worth the risk.

I might be wrong, but for us it was the right decision. She's a smashing pony and the perfect one for my kids, she is teaching them a lot!