*hic*
village idiot :D
Can anyone tell me if their greys have melanomas on black skin or pink skin? My Section A has melanomas under her tail but they are all on black skin.
Melanomas in grey horses?
- Thread starter welshponylover
- Start date
Happy Horse
Well-Known Member
Having lost a horse to internal Melanomas at just 18, I'd never buy another one. It's not the ones you can see that cause the problems but any you can't see growing inside and by the time they manifest themselves through outward symptoms then it is unlikely anything can be done. Having said this there are hundreds of grey horses that live to a good long age with or without Melanomas, I just wouldn't want to go through the experience again.
galaxy
Well-Known Member
Mine had his on black skin.
His 1st appeared when he was 10. The summer he was 16 they did multiply a bit, but the summer he was 17 they went mad. The last few days even they mulitplied extremely which was the reason I had him PTS. They blocked him up so he couldnt pass anything. On post mortem he was riddled with them inside.
The only thing predictable about melanomas is that they are unpredictable. They can be dormant for years and then mulitply ridiculously.
His 1st appeared when he was 10. The summer he was 16 they did multiply a bit, but the summer he was 17 they went mad. The last few days even they mulitplied extremely which was the reason I had him PTS. They blocked him up so he couldnt pass anything. On post mortem he was riddled with them inside.
The only thing predictable about melanomas is that they are unpredictable. They can be dormant for years and then mulitply ridiculously.
noblesteed
Well-Known Member
My grey has 2 under his dock. I bought him at 9 years old and they developed at around 10 or 11. He is a black-skinned grey.
I haven't noticed them growing any larger over the past 2 or 3 years, I do keep an eye on them though. But I don't let them worry me. Yes they may spread, or they may stay as they are. There are SO many other things that can take a horse from you. I wouldn't change him, he is a good horse and he suits me fine, so I am willing to live with a couple of bumps!
I haven't noticed them growing any larger over the past 2 or 3 years, I do keep an eye on them though. But I don't let them worry me. Yes they may spread, or they may stay as they are. There are SO many other things that can take a horse from you. I wouldn't change him, he is a good horse and he suits me fine, so I am willing to live with a couple of bumps!
Fransurrey
Well-Known Member
It's years since I worked in gene transcription, so hopefully I get this right...
I worked in the next lab to a leading researcher on melanocytes and gleaned all my knowledge from his group. The reason greys arise is due to a Mitf mutation. Mitf is a regulator of melanocyte (the cells which produce melanin) stem cell renewal. No stem cells = no melanocytes. Stem cells are very slow dividing cells (slower than other cells in the skin/follicle and so with the mutation comes a progressive loss of melanocyte stem cells, which reside in the hair follicle. The result is that the animal goes grey over a few months, through moulting cycles.
Mitf is also one of the factors responsible for the quality of melanin produced, so horses with certain mutations of this factor (there are numerous types) are not afforded the same protection that good melanin provides, although they are pigmented (as opposed to albinos). Depending on other mutations present either through inheritance or development, greys with melanomas may/may not have them inside, particularly the GI tract, which has a very rapid turnover of cells, which contain proteins which interact with Mitf (I forget how).
So, my understanding is that Cremellos are BORN cremello and do not progressively become this colour as greys do. Have I got that right? If so, they are NOT more susceptible to melanomas in the way that greys are. I just did a quick read on Wiki and there was no mention of melanoma there.
One thing I do remember is that the mice in the Mitf experiments were black skinned and did not start out chestnut like some grey horses. I never looked into it properly, but chestnuts produce pheomelanin, rather than eumelanin, so maybe the MitF influence is not so critical. Dunno!
So, in answer to the OPs question, I would have one removed if possible and get it biopsied to see if it's malignant or not. I know very little about cremellos, but as others have implied, many of the melanomas in greys are benign, it's their obstruction of either tack or the intestine that causes the problem. Hence, most people don't worry about them.
I worked in the next lab to a leading researcher on melanocytes and gleaned all my knowledge from his group. The reason greys arise is due to a Mitf mutation. Mitf is a regulator of melanocyte (the cells which produce melanin) stem cell renewal. No stem cells = no melanocytes. Stem cells are very slow dividing cells (slower than other cells in the skin/follicle and so with the mutation comes a progressive loss of melanocyte stem cells, which reside in the hair follicle. The result is that the animal goes grey over a few months, through moulting cycles.
Mitf is also one of the factors responsible for the quality of melanin produced, so horses with certain mutations of this factor (there are numerous types) are not afforded the same protection that good melanin provides, although they are pigmented (as opposed to albinos). Depending on other mutations present either through inheritance or development, greys with melanomas may/may not have them inside, particularly the GI tract, which has a very rapid turnover of cells, which contain proteins which interact with Mitf (I forget how).
So, my understanding is that Cremellos are BORN cremello and do not progressively become this colour as greys do. Have I got that right? If so, they are NOT more susceptible to melanomas in the way that greys are. I just did a quick read on Wiki and there was no mention of melanoma there.
One thing I do remember is that the mice in the Mitf experiments were black skinned and did not start out chestnut like some grey horses. I never looked into it properly, but chestnuts produce pheomelanin, rather than eumelanin, so maybe the MitF influence is not so critical. Dunno!
So, in answer to the OPs question, I would have one removed if possible and get it biopsied to see if it's malignant or not. I know very little about cremellos, but as others have implied, many of the melanomas in greys are benign, it's their obstruction of either tack or the intestine that causes the problem. Hence, most people don't worry about them.
Fransurrey
Well-Known Member
Just another quick question - does the pony have blue eyes? If not, then he is not a cremello, but a pale palomino. The above still applies, though!
*hic*
village idiot :D
Thank you Fransurrey! You are right, Cremellos are not greyed out anything else, they are born pretty much the colour they stay AFAIK. OPs pony appears, from the pictures, to have blue eyes.
OP if your pony definitely has melanomas then you should really get them properly checked out. As he is not grey not predisposed to them so any that are there are unusual. I'm not trying to be horrible about him, I'm just worried for you and him.
OP if your pony definitely has melanomas then you should really get them properly checked out. As he is not grey not predisposed to them so any that are there are unusual. I'm not trying to be horrible about him, I'm just worried for you and him.
Spring Feather
Well-Known Member
Black skin.
OP to compare cremellos to greys makes no sense. We're talking about completely different genes at play and AFAIK cremellos are not at risk of melanomas whereas greys are mutant and almost certainly will develop them in their lives so if this cremello has melanomas you should proceed with caution.
alesea
Well-Known Member
As the horse in question is a cremello, I'd want a biopsy to be taken of the lesion(s).
Below is a quote from this page: http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/SIVE/2003/lectures/knottenbelt4.pdf
"Melanomas occurring in non-grey horses tend to be more dangerous than the more common form in grey horses. Usually the former are single and isolated while in grey horses they are usually present in large numbers (although single lesions can be encountered) and may occur in clusters. The condition in non-grey horses can be highly malignant."
Below is a quote from this page: http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/SIVE/2003/lectures/knottenbelt4.pdf
"Melanomas occurring in non-grey horses tend to be more dangerous than the more common form in grey horses. Usually the former are single and isolated while in grey horses they are usually present in large numbers (although single lesions can be encountered) and may occur in clusters. The condition in non-grey horses can be highly malignant."
Fransurrey
Well-Known Member
Thought I understood it right! I think the vet in question is very wrong to dismiss this as being something that 80% of GREYS get. To even confuse cremello with grey as an equine vet would have be running for the hills (or another vet!).
Regardless of how it turns out, OP, if he's a special horse, then enjoy him. Worst case scenario is that you will have fun and every horse teaches you a lot. Just be sure to get it checked out, if only so that you can manage them and monitor them accordingly
Regardless of how it turns out, OP, if he's a special horse, then enjoy him. Worst case scenario is that you will have fun and every horse teaches you a lot. Just be sure to get it checked out, if only so that you can manage them and monitor them accordingly
*hic*
village idiot :D
Oh thank goodness! At last others have seen what I saw and was worried about and had been trying to rase awareness of.
Hopefully the OP will see these last comments and tell her father in order that something can be sorted out re checking these melanomas.
Hopefully the OP will see these last comments and tell her father in order that something can be sorted out re checking these melanomas.
welshponylover
Well-Known Member
sorry for late replies been bogged down with school work and not on here for a while -- we are going ahead with the sale, but will get a vet check them out over the holidays, as vet who vetted him reckons they could be removed at any time (on the yard, its that simple) and he is definately the right horse for me and we are willing to take the risk...some will agree and some wont but i have got advice from well trusted horse people (not that i dont trust all of you! ) and i think its a case of it may be a problem or it wont at all...
) and i think its a case of it may be a problem or it wont at all...
*hic*
village idiot :D
The main thing is that he's the right horse for you of course but you did ring some alarm bells with the horse being vetted by the owner's vet and then between them the two vets not seeming to understand the difference between grey horses and Cremellos.
Hope he's fine when you get the lumps checked out.
Hope he's fine when you get the lumps checked out.
Fransurrey
Well-Known Member
I agree with you, OP. If this horse can teach you a lot and you can provide the love and care, then do it. Better a year with the most amazing horse than 10 with the wrong one.
I once took on a cat with liver failure and cared for her until it was time. It IS heartbreaking, but I will never regret it. She gave me 5 months of pleasure and was a real cutie.
I once took on a cat with liver failure and cared for her until it was time. It IS heartbreaking, but I will never regret it. She gave me 5 months of pleasure and was a real cutie.
flowersgirl
Active Member
Hey
My 31 yr old gelding has melanomas under his dock and 1 in his mouth but I also bought him knowing that he had the melanomas and wouldn't change a thing. He's simply the best and has taught me so much.
I obviously keep a regular check on them. If they look a little dry/scabby I put aloe veera or sudacrem on them. Over the years they have grown but not to a great extent.
He was prescribed some medication from the vet which helped in reducing the size of them. They can only stay on the tablets for up to 2 months. My horse has had a couple of doses over the years and some of the melanomas had shrunk so it may be a route you could try. The medication was called Cimetidine.
Hope this helps
My 31 yr old gelding has melanomas under his dock and 1 in his mouth but I also bought him knowing that he had the melanomas and wouldn't change a thing. He's simply the best and has taught me so much.
I obviously keep a regular check on them. If they look a little dry/scabby I put aloe veera or sudacrem on them. Over the years they have grown but not to a great extent.
He was prescribed some medication from the vet which helped in reducing the size of them. They can only stay on the tablets for up to 2 months. My horse has had a couple of doses over the years and some of the melanomas had shrunk so it may be a route you could try. The medication was called Cimetidine.
Hope this helps
*hic*
village idiot :D
What colour is your gelding flowersgirl and what colour skin are his melanomas on?
flowersgirl
Active Member
Sorry for the late reply *hic*.
He's a white grey with black skin.
He's a white grey with black skin.
Clippy
Well-Known Member
Don't let all the negative replies get you down, OP. Everyones experiences will be different and nothing to do with your horse. You've done everything right by getting him vetted and your instructor has approved him too. He's obviously the right horse for you, so just enjoy him instead of worrying about things that may or may never happen to him.
Black_Horse_White
Well-Known Member
I agree with Fransurry, I had my last horse only 11 months before he was PTS, although heartbreaking he was the perfect horse for me. Unfortunately I didn't know of his condition so couldn't say if i'd still gone ahead with the sale if I'd known. So in a way I was glad I didn't as I wouldn't have had the chance to own such a lovely, kind horse however short it was for. Good luck and I hope you have many many happy years together.
_April_
Well-Known Member
I have had 3 greys. 2 lasted til very late 20's and both had melanomas.
My current (grey) horse is in her early teens and she has melanomas.
They were picked up in her vetting and as a result theres an exclusion on them in her insurance policy (just those lumps though not colic or anything else).
It was a decision I made to buy her even though she had them. I would be more wary of a non-grey horse with them.
They havent changed (externally!) in 3 years.
I have now had 3 perfect years with her and I don't regret buying her at all no matter what happens now. She has been worth the risk.
Ironically its been my darker - non melanoma - horses that have had more issues. One was PTS with grass sickness at 7 and the other developed navicular at 14 (she is 27 now lol!).
You never know whats coming with horses - buying a grey with a melanoma was a risk but it was a calculated one for me.
My current (grey) horse is in her early teens and she has melanomas.
They were picked up in her vetting and as a result theres an exclusion on them in her insurance policy (just those lumps though not colic or anything else).
It was a decision I made to buy her even though she had them. I would be more wary of a non-grey horse with them.
They havent changed (externally!) in 3 years.
I have now had 3 perfect years with her and I don't regret buying her at all no matter what happens now. She has been worth the risk.
Ironically its been my darker - non melanoma - horses that have had more issues. One was PTS with grass sickness at 7 and the other developed navicular at 14 (she is 27 now lol!).
You never know whats coming with horses - buying a grey with a melanoma was a risk but it was a calculated one for me.