Mental Welfare.

AndySpooner

AndySpooner

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Following on from a recent thread about the mental welfare of horses when kept barefoot, it became apparent that a number of people cited the fact that they could not keep their horses as they would like to, or in a way that they felt would benefit the mental health of their horse, because they were on livery.

It made me think that perhaps, livery yards, although approved, might not be the best place to keep horses, if the systems, controls, restrictions imposed on horses by yard owners, and horse owners are subjecting the horses to some forms of stress.

When one sees a livery yard, composed of lines of well maintained boxes, and surrounded by lush green fields, are we impressed, or does it hide elements detrimental to our horse?

Are the restrictions imposed by yard owners for their own benefit, the benefit of the horse owner or the benefit of the horse?

When these yards are 'approved' does the approving body have any knowledge of the horses mental requirements and are they taken into account?

What do people feel is the best way to keep horses, and with increased awareness of how horses live and inter act without human interference, have the traditional livery yard systems and practises been left behind?
 
Thats not really a black and white topic though is it?
A beautifully presented yard with well kept fields is likely to have good staff, a good routine and meet and exceed a horses basic needs i.e, food, water, shelter and exercise.
However there is always going to be horses that dont fit with that system, I like to do my horses including riding in the morning, but one of mine isn't really a morning 'person', I would like my retired mare to be out in the field all day, but she wants to come in after an hour or so.
My point being that in an ideal world yards would cater for each individual horse and owner, but it is simply not possible to do when there are more than say 3 horses per staff member.
IME the horses are easy to deal with, its the owners that are difficult!
 
Baggybreeches said:
Thats not really a black and white topic though is it?
A beautifully presented yard with well kept fields is likely to have good staff, a good routine and meet and exceed a horses basic needs i.e, food, water, shelter and exercise.
However there is always going to be horses that dont fit with that system, I like to do my horses including riding in the morning, but one of mine isn't really a morning 'person', I would like my retired mare to be out in the field all day, but she wants to come in after an hour or so.
My point being that in an ideal world yards would cater for each individual horse and owner, but it is simply not possible to do when there are more than say 3 horses per staff member.
IME the horses are easy to deal with, its the owners that are difficult!
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My questions are based on the assumption that on a conventionally well run yard the horses physical needs are catered for. Are the behavioural traits exhibited by the horses you describe, conditioned by the system?
 
Baggybreeches said:
IME the horses are easy to deal with, its the owners that are difficult!
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Soooo agree with this!

I'm lucky to be able to turn mine out in a herd now but I used to have to keep him seperated in postage stamp paddocks. Awful. Hated it - he kept jumping over into others paddocks for company so we had to leave. Lucky no injuries occurred but there had been a serious one a year before I arrived. I'm glad we did as he was clearly stressed being on his own.

A yard full of horses and no-one to have a scratch with.

However, some horses don't seem to mind and seem happy with the routine so maybe it's a question of: Should there be different types of livery yards? To cater for different needs...
 
I've liveried at lovely yards with great facilities and staff but I choose to use a yard that is scruffy and basic, but it enables my horses to have access to large areas of grazing in a herd without restricted turnout.
The horses in this herd display none of the characteristics that were not uncommon in yards with restricted turnout. The horses are easy to handle bringing in to the yard, they are the same to ride in winter as in summer and they look really well. We've had some 'problem' horses come here who's issues were changed quite dramatically by just letting them live in this environment. I'm told by the YO that in the 25 years she's had this land, no horse has ever failed to settle. I'm inclined to believe her as my horse was described as a pyscho on a traditional yard. Vet can't believe the change in her in the year I've owned her.
 
I think most restrictions are imposed for a degree of each of those reasons.

I'd like my horse to live out. However as a fence jumper my YO said no - as he is her responsibility too and her only live-out field borders a road.

So that's for her, mine and my horses good.

Although the answer I would have liked was : fence a paddock yourself and he can live out! :D
 
I think what keeps horses happy is a good atmosphere, consistency and routine. Hence why you can have the nicest or the shabbiest of yards but if you have those things the horses will be happy. Oh and also catering for individual needs of the animals xx
 
This is why I've ended up with a little field and barn that I rent all on my own. It gives me as much control as I can over how my horses are handled and kept. It's not my ideal, but I do appreciate not having to fit into someone else's view of how they need to be looked after.
 
As said above, it depends on the horse.

I had to move my horse from what I felt was our perfect yard - he could live out all year round in a herd of horses who were so happy and chilled and we had a stable if we needed it, and a school and fab hacking.

Then he injured himself out in the field, was on boxrest for a long time and then needed restricted individual turnout which the perfect yard couldn't really provide. We had to move to find somewhere where he could have individual turnout, something which I'd have previously avoided, but we've luckily found somewhere where he can have his own paddock but when the time is right he'll be able to live out again.

I once visited a livery yard which on the surface seemed lovely - great stables, school, daily turnout in small groups. But I have never seen so many unhappy horses in one place in my life!!! I don't know why they were unhappy as all their basic needs were met but something wasn't right.

My horse thrives on routine. In the past I've kept him turned out 24/7 in a lovely big field with a couple of companions. We had no stables or shelter but the field had natural shelter. Whilst he seemed happy turned out, whenever I tried to do anything with him, i.e., catch him and groom him/tack up, etc, he was a nightmare. When we moved to the perfect yard descirbed above, he still lived out but his behaviour improved and I think he enjoyed having a stable to go into for an hour or so each day to munch hay.
 
Given how many different ways people like to keep their animals then it's unlikely that any livery yard will be able to cope with the demands of all it's customers to do exactly as they wish.

That's why I run my own place although even then I can't do exactly as I'd like due to weather conditions, grass quality and the individual animals requirements.
 
I have always been diy.

One of the biggest issues at the yard I am about to leave for me was that although the horses were in herds they were in mixed needs herds. So when you have good doers and lamanitics sharing the same field as poor doers straight away there is a conflict on how to manage that field. All the owners want the best for their own horse but when it conflicts with others sharing the same peice of land then that causes so many problems.

A major issue was some people thinking rules do not apply to them along with YO not enforcing any rules but telling liveries to "sort it out themselves". Communal jobs like poo picking for some reason there will always be those that do their share and those that don't.

Another issue for me is people with no experience or knowlege of horses running a yard.
 
Horses for Courses.

OP, what would you consider a viable alternative to livery yards? I doubt that many horse owners would be able to keep their horses at home (although I'm sure my lad would love to curl up on the sofa with me in the evening :D)
 
Bit of both really.Our yard is good with turnout but at the moment its alternate days only to conserve the grazing for the spring and summer.This only lasts for about 6 to 10mweeks depending on weather etc.On their day out they get about 5 to 6 hours.Small same sex groups but quite decent sized paddocks.In summer mine will go out all night.They do seem to cope and on their day in they get a leg stretch on the horse walker.During the VERY bad weather there was not turnout at all for both horse/staff safety.Not IDEAL but then very little is in this world.Fancy yards are there to impress owners rather than horses I think.One of the best I knew was very rough and ready but the horses were very happy.I rang one yard and was told 2 hours turnout in the summer NOTHING in the winter! Land is expensive though and especially so near towns/cities and livery yards have to make a profit so they probably overstock. Another thing is how much are people prepared to pay.To run an ideal yard would be quite expensive and outside of many peoples budgets.Owners are a BIG problem and I speak as one.
 
Flicker said:
Horses for Courses.

OP, what would you consider a viable alternative to livery yards? I doubt that many horse owners would be able to keep their horses at home (although I'm sure my lad would love to curl up on the sofa with me in the evening :D)
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I've never been on a yard, always been lucky enough to keep my horses as I have wanted to. However, I have to say that my systems have changed over the years, from a stable each to giving the horses more choice themselves.

If I was to look at having liveries I would probably want to keep horses in compatable groups, with shelters etc, rather than individual stables.

I don't think that there is a viable alternative to livery yards, but perhaps greater flexibility within yards would help in providing a more horse friendly environment.
 
AndySpooner said:
I don't think that there is a viable alternative to livery yards, but perhaps greater flexibility within yards would help in providing a more horse friendly environment.
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I belive the onus should be on the owner to find the best yard for their particular horse, rather than a yard try to cater for every different horse. I appreciate that this isn't always possible and sacrifices have to be made but in my experience, yards that have tried to please everybody have failed and the yards that operate to a particular regime do better.

Yards that offer 2 hours turnout in summer and nothing in winter are unacceptable. In my opinion, all yards should be able to offer 24/7 turnout to those who want it in the summer and at least daily turnout for 6 hours or so in the winter.
 
I think part of the problem is that some horse carers, whether owners, yard staff or other actually have no idea whether their horses are stressed or not.
 
I like having the horses at home as I see them every day, all the time so I can observe what is going on and react to it before it becomes a problem and I feel I have more flexibility in making alternative arrangements for horses that are not happy with what is available. However, restrictions do apply at home as well as I am not made of money, nor do I have the 'perfect' set-up. Worse still, if something doesn't work at home it's much more difficult to solve it by moving house, whereas with a livery yard there are usually other options. We all have to made do with what is available!
 
AshTay said:
I belive the onus should be on the owner to find the best yard for their particular horse, rather than a yard try to cater for every different horse. I appreciate that this isn't always possible and sacrifices have to be made but in my experience, yards that have tried to please everybody have failed and the yards that operate to a particular regime do better.
.
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I totally agree - what works very well on a yard for one horse is useless for another. For example, my horse has fairly restricted turnout. A few hours a day is all he wants and when the weather is really grotty he is far happier not going out at all. My yard is perfect for him - small, individual paddocks, close to the barn, excellent indoor and outdoor riding facilities and lots going on during the day to keep him entertained. But those very features that make it ideal for this horse, made it a nightmare for my previous mare who wanted 24/7 turnout with a herd and needed real peace and quiet when she did come into the stable or she got very, very wound up. She is now in a home with 4 other horses on 6 acres with continuous turnout and field shelters - an environment that would not only make my current horse totally miserable but which would also be extremely detrimental to his health.

So yes, I believe that it is up to the individual owner to determine what is best for the horse and find a yard that is run accordingly (and when I say 'best for the horse' I don't mean what's most convenient for the owner...)
 
I don't think enough attention is paid to a horse's social needs - for friends. Individual turnout paddocks, while they suit some anti-social individuals :p don't suit most.
I have an older mare, and two youngish horses who have been together for about 5/6 years - and the amount of time they spend touching each other is quite noticeable.
They are stabled at night now (I'd rather they lived out all year) and they make me take their rugs off, and let them mutually groom each other in the corridor outside their boxes.
I don't think I've ever seen any other horse at this yard mutually grooming another.
S :D
 
1. Has to be out all the time. She would rather be left in the field on her own than come in. When I bring her in for the farrier, she shakes, poos, cribs and is really distressed and she knows that once her hooves are done, she's going straight back out. She then charges around like she's never seen a field before. She is old, retired and amazingly this is an improvement on how she was when I first had her as she would rear as you tried to lead her in and her shaking is alot less now.

Having said that, she'd cope with grass (out 24 hours) livery.



2. Is fine as long as she's not alone. So if the horses are all turned out or brought in together, she'd be fine with that. However she cannot cope with lots of different people. She has been hit in the past and has serious trust issues. I did have her on working livery for a short time, then tried part livery but she just couldn't cope, so I moved her to DIY. She is even happer now as I have moved the horses to my parent's field so she only really sees people that she knows well.

The main problem she had on livery was that the grooms just didn't have the time to give her to gain her trust, there were also quite a few grooms plus the YO so she never had the same person.



3. She's the 'baby' at 2 yo, but she is the easiest to deal with. She is fine in the field as long as she has company and she's fine stabled as long as she has company. She's happy to see everyone as no-one has done anything bad to her and I want to keep it that way.
 
Anyone been to Horseworld in Bristol?

I think that is a good example of how to keep large numbers of horses in relatively small places!! :) and they get the extremes of equine examples from skinnies to fatties and according to veterinary opinion, they are advanced for the UK. They even adopt the Jamie Jackson 'system' for the obese to encourage natural excercise using relatively small spaces to do so.

They have even gone to the lengths of reconditioning the land for fat natives so only timothy and fescue are grazed and have put in drainage and sand.

Ok, I know they get plenty of public money but I think large livery yards could invest in environment more than they do. I know in America large yards do cater for more...

...then again, they do have much more land than we do here.
 
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