Michael Peace - horse trainer, thoughts?

YourValentine said:
If

If that comment is aimed at me, having read everyone else's comments I'm wondering if I had the same person out...
Because I got no explanation of what he did or what I should do/shouldn't do, so that I could repeat and re-enforce by myself afterwards. I wasn't ignoring advice I wasn't given any.

I'm glad so many people have had great success with him. I was just spectacularly disappointed for the sum of money I forked out on someone with otherwise good reviews.
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No it was a general comment, if anything in response to poiuytrewq’s experience. I’d have quoted you if I’d been replying to you.
 
I guess even great trainers can have a really bad day. There’s a trainer I won’t name who I recommended to a friend. I had personal experience of him and he was great. With a very good reputation. She asked him for help with a young horse and paid a fortune but was bitterly disappointed. He seemed scared of her horse, was grumpy and uncommunicative and didn’t give her any tools to build on what he did. Which wasn’t a lot anyway. She had specifically wanted to work on leading/ manners as he dragged her round a bit but he never got him out of a small pen. She was left thinking wtf was that all about. I have no idea what went wrong that day. I did hear that he took a break from training for a while soon after that. Though he’s working again now and hopefully has his mojo back.
 
I saw Michael at a demmo a few years back now at a local Christmas Equine Fair which used to happen down 'ere (Exeter, Devon).

I was very impressed with him and would use him for a problem - if I could afford him (which I seriously doubt).

Another avenue might be to find someone local who has a good reputation and who people have used; personally I would seek out someone from the "Intelligent Horsemanship" school of training who might be in the locality - and would be a lot cheaper than having Michael come.

Good luck!
 
Not what you’re asking, but I highly recommend Grant Bazin, Grant Bazin Practical Horsemanship for these issues.

My mare was an absolute nightmare to load following a bad experience in the box, he used no force. Just calm, quiet confidence and had her loading herself in no time.

8 years on and she’s still completely trouble free to load- even if it’s been 6 months since she last saw the box.

He’s a lovely guy and was very reasonably priced when he came to me. I cannot recommend him highly enough!
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
I would seek out someone from the "Intelligent Horsemanship" school of training who might be in the locality - and would be a lot cheaper than having Michael come.
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Intelligent Horsemanship based on Monty Roberts' behaviourism is not at all the same as the Michael Peace approach. IH often involves driving the horse away and the use of a Dually (pressure) halter. Neither of these feature in Peace's work and indeed might be seen as the opposite.
 
Skib said:
Intelligent Horsemanship based on Monty Roberts' behaviourism is not at all the same as the Michael Peace approach. IH often involves driving the horse away and the use of a Dually (pressure) halter. Neither of these feature in Peace's work and indeed might be seen as the opposite.
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Agree. Wouldn't touch a MR person (again) with a bargepole.

I used a MR "trainer" after doing a lot of homework and it's one of the worst decisions I ever made. My horse ended up totally traumatised in the 11 days she had him before I brought him straight home. Last I heard she was working for MR at his ranch. Bargepole is putting it politely.

Michael P is nothing like MR and their ilk
 
I'd agree with that. The whole 'drive them away' or be the herd leader has been debunked. Horses often comply, but not for the reason the theory says they will.

Slightly off track but read this. It sounds clear that all the other trainers in the colt starting comp were using versions of 'join up' which is actually more accurately called 'drive off'!

It works up to a point. I have sometimes use this sort of thing to put a bargy dominant horse in his place. But I'd only drive a horse away for a clearly wrong/dangerous response. Not as a 'technique'. It also does not then translate to other tasks the way that approaches focusing on clarity of communication and trust do. It might be the starting point to get a horse more interesting in listening in the first place but is not something I'd ever do routinely, or with a fearful horse.

The G H C

www.goodhorsemanshipchannel.com www.goodhorsemanshipchannel.com
 
Ambers Echo said:
I'd agree with that. The whole 'drive them away' or be the herd leader has been debunked. Horses often comply, but not for the reason the theory says they will.

Slightly off track but read this. It sounds clear that all the other trainers in the colt starting comp were using versions of 'join up' which is actually more accurately called 'drive off'!

It works up to a point. I have sometimes use this sort of thing to put a bargy dominant horse in his place. But I'd only drive a horse away for a clearly wrong/dangerous response. Not as a 'technique'. It also does not then translate to other tasks the way that approaches focusing on clarity of communication and trust do. It might be the starting point to get a horse more interesting in listening in the first place but is not something I'd ever do routinely, or with a fearful horse.

The G H C

www.goodhorsemanshipchannel.com www.goodhorsemanshipchannel.com
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I was about to post the same link!

It's worth remembering that the vast majority of Monty Roberts' contemporaries view him as a showman and nothing more, and were fairly horrified when he launched himself on the global scene back in the day. There was a thread on here a few years back about him doing a clinic at Cavan EC and his handling of one of the horses brought to the demo by a horse charity that was local to me at the time. It was appalling.

Michael Peace is nothing like a MR practitioner.
 
Using a well known horseman/woman is normally extremely pricey & most of the time they are not necessary & you can find someone local to you who can do the job. We have a marvellous horsewoman in a yard across the road from us. I know she has the ability to sort out horses with issues & she would be much cheaper than a well known person. I used a professional rider to sort out an issue years ago with a show jumper. Ted Edgar put me onto him, he took my horse for a week & when I collected him he was sorted, & he wasn't vastly expensive either,
 
There was no driving away when desensitising Woody, just a calm, take all the time in the world attitude with an in depth knowledge of how to handle possible triggers. The whole experience boosted both my and the pony's confidence to the point where he was taking me into the lorry and kept camly eating while being shut in and being driven away. He then travelled in a completely relaxed manner in total contrast to his furious rearing, breaking ropes and pounding the inside of the lorry with his front feet. Perhaps there are Intelligent Horsemanship people who know what they are doing?
 
planete said:
Perhaps there are Intelligent Horsemanship people who know what they are doing?
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I am sure there are. I imagine plenty of very exprienced and open minded horse people are attracted to any new approach that adds to their overall understanding of horses. And they can then adapt the approach as needed. Like my friend who was a UK Parelli instructor but parted ways with the Ps very quickly. Fab horsewoman though, and learned a lot from her training.
 
planete said:
Perhaps there are Intelligent Horsemanship people who know what they are doing?
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A friend of mine (who trained with Harry Whitney) once said to me "it shouldn't be called Natural Horsemanship, it should be called Common sense Horsemanship". She's right, but unfortunately common sense isn't that common 🙂
 
Green Bean said:
Michael came out to help me with my (non)loading issues with my horse last year. I was at the point of giving up as nothing I did made any difference. As I am sure many other people have done, I stood back, folded my arms and thought 'he will never get my horse to load'. It took all of 5 minutes, I was shocked that he made it look so easy. He got her on and off several times and then handed the lead rope over to me. Horse would of course not load for me, but Michael worked with me and showed me what I was doing wrong and how to correct it. By the end of it, she was loading like she had never had a problem.
However, you cannot sit on your laurels and think the horse will be fixed forever more. I did loading practice everyday for quite a while. Boxed to a good hacking spot, took half an hour to load - realised that we can't have any distractions - in this case it was cars driving in to park around us. Continued with loading practice. Went to my first dressage show in 3 years - horse loaded perfectly on the way there but took 2 hours to load on the way back, and only did this when I dragged across some crowd barriers to put behind her to force her on. I was livid. I went back to practicing and the first attempt took half an hour.
The end of the story - I accepted that I had not followed Michael's way during the 2 hour saga, reverting, out of frustration, back to my 'old ways' of loading. I now follow Michael's way by the book and will get my horse to load through patience and love while being quite firm about telling her I know she can load and she knows what to do.
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Can you explain some more what his technique is please?
 
bubsqueaks said:
Can you explain some more what his technique is please?
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It's not a technique per se. He's very good at reading the horse's cues and emotions, and applying the right amount of pressure at the right moment. There are some videos on his website that you can watch, which includes how he uses a lunge line when needed (as an earlier post says, he can spot when it would be useful and when it's not necessary - it wasn't necessary with my horse).
 
j1ffy said:
It's not a technique per se. He's very good at reading the horse's cues and emotions, and applying the right amount of pressure at the right moment. There are some videos on his website that you can watch, which includes how he uses a lunge line when needed (as an earlier post says, he can spot when it would be useful and when it's not necessary - it wasn't necessary with my horse).
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Thank you - yes Ive watched a few of his videos - he makes it look so simple & easy just wondered what we're all doing wrong!
I imagine there's also the fact he has no emotional stress attached to the fact the horse wont load!
Its such a common issue & one that Ive experienced several times - wouldnt hesitate if there's a next time to getting him out.
 
I was told the timing, quality and degree of the pressure exerted on the lead rope is key to cooperation. I was taught the feel of it by holding one end of a rope while the expert was holding the other end and being given verbal feedback. Another person who had got Woody to load after five minutes previously said it was the timing of the release when the horse showed the smallest sign of cooperation that was key to success. This last one did not however stop him panicking once inside the lorry. It took desensitisation to do that.
 
I really like MP and have used him over the years on diff horses for napping/rearing/loading issues and general help with long reining/starting young horses and for getting my own confidence back after a bad fall. He’s a really nice chap and just has a way of reading the situation and calmly sorting it out. I couldn’t really explain a technique as such as it’s been diff for diff horses but it’s worked for me every time. Also, on a couple of occasions when I was struggling with specifics things that I haven’t been able to sort myself, (eg one horse bucking into canter, and another dramatically running/napping through left shoulder) he has ridden the horse for 30-45 mins, and then the horse never did it again, even with me! Genius!

He’s the only one I would use too, and a few professionals I really admire also use him. And you don’t have to buy any ‘essential’ ropes or pressure halters. He just used head collars and normal tack.
 
j1ffy said:
It's not a technique per se. He's very good at reading the horse's cues and emotions, and applying the right amount of pressure at the right moment. There are some videos on his website that you can watch, which includes how he uses a lunge line when needed (as an earlier post says, he can spot when it would be useful and when it's not necessary - it wasn't necessary with my horse).
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And I imagine it's an attitude thing too. Like taking young kids to the supermarket and knowing they will behave. This Michael Peace sounds very good.
 
I had him out for my mare and he was very good! He allowed us freedom again 😊 he was kind and patient and taught me what to do when she says no. I thought it would be much better to go straight to the best, rather than messing about with cheaper people that might have made the issue worse.

However, I have just discovered my horse has got some physical issues that might have contributed to the reluctance to load. I don’t want to scare you but it’s something to consider.
 
Re techniques. You need to establish the issue. A petrified horse won't load. Some horses will need work around the trailer before you even try get in because they won't go near it. But many horses are taught not to load by owners inadvertently releasing at the wrong time.

Eg: Horse gets partway in, Horse then backs away. Handler hangs on, pressure tightens considerably, horse panics and breaks free. From horse's POV: pressure applied then briefly increased then went away completely when he pulled back harder. Ie pulling back harder earns a release. NOT what you want. Instead set things up so pressure is off when horse is moving or thinking forward, and on gently when horse is moving or thinking backwards, not so tight it triggers a defensive repsonse but tight enough that the horse would like to get rid of it. So if the horse pulls back, let the horse back out but keep the pressure even. Just walk with him till he stops. Maintain even pressure till he moves forward again, at which point release completely and let him walk forward on a loose lead rein. This only works on a horse who gives to pressure and leads well. If they don't, work on that first.

Another common evasion/learned reponse is for the horse to swing bum sideways. Typically handler leads them round in a circle to get them straight again. Horses POV - if I swing butt sideways then I get a break. (Not conscious - just a conditioned response). So you need to maintain even pressure and use a flag or something to tap bum over straight again. Similar to training a horse to pick you up from a mounting block. Again they first need to learn how to move their bum over in response to pressure. If they don't know how, teach that first.

Many loading issues arise from gaps elsewhere in horse's education and understanding.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Re techniques. You need to establish the issue. A petrified horse won't load. Some horses will need work around the trailer before you even try get in because they won't go near it. But many horses are taught not to load by owners inadvertently releasing at the wrong time.

Eg: Horse gets partway in, Horse then backs away. Handler hangs on, pressure tightens considerably, horse panics and breaks free. From horse's POV: pressure applied then briefly increased then went away completely when he pulled back harder. Ie pulling back harder earns a release. NOT what you want. Instead set things up so pressure is off when horse is moving or thinking forward, and on gently when horse is moving or thinking backwards, not so tight it triggers a defensive repsonse but tight enough that the horse would like to get rid of it. So if the horse pulls back, let the horse back out but keep the pressure even. Just walk with him till he stops. Maintain even pressure till he moves forward again, at which point release completely and let him walk forward on a loose lead rein. This only works on a horse who gives to pressure and leads well. If they don't, work on that first.

Another common evasion/learned reponse is for the horse to swing bum sideways. Typically handler leads them round in a circle to get them straight again. Horses POV - if I swing butt sideways then I get a break. (Not conscious - just a conditioned response). So you need to maintain even pressure and use a flag or something to tap bum over straight again. Similar to training a horse to pick you up from a mounting block. Again they first need to learn how to move their bum over in response to pressure. If they don't know how, teach that first.

Many loading issues arise from gaps elsewhere in horse's education and understanding.
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Completely agree. In our case, horse will happily load and stand to eat hay but will back off as soon as the back bar is about to be hooked up. If we manage to get it on, he accepts it and stands quietly, no panicking and eats hay. Closing up rest of trailer is not an issue and he travels perfectly. Is mannerly and calm to unload too. We have managed to *sort of* overcome it using various little tricks or timing etc but everything we try is obviously not going deep enough and we ultimately end up back at this stage. Hence hoping MP might be able to show us how to solidify this more permanently. We have got to this stage from a pony that wouldn't even entertain the idea of going anywhere near the trailer - so an achievement in itself but we have been stuck at this stage for ~ a year now and not progressing it seems

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts and experiences - all very much appreciated. Trying to get together the funds to have him out.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Re techniques. You need to establish the issue. A petrified horse won't load. Some horses will need work around the trailer before you even try get in because they won't go near it. But many horses are taught not to load by owners inadvertently releasing at the wrong time.

Eg: Horse gets partway in, Horse then backs away. Handler hangs on, pressure tightens considerably, horse panics and breaks free. From horse's POV: pressure applied then briefly increased then went away completely when he pulled back harder. Ie pulling back harder earns a release. NOT what you want. Instead set things up so pressure is off when horse is moving or thinking forward, and on gently when horse is moving or thinking backwards, not so tight it triggers a defensive repsonse but tight enough that the horse would like to get rid of it. So if the horse pulls back, let the horse back out but keep the pressure even. Just walk with him till he stops. Maintain even pressure till he moves forward again, at which point release completely and let him walk forward on a loose lead rein. This only works on a horse who gives to pressure and leads well. If they don't, work on that first.

Another common evasion/learned reponse is for the horse to swing bum sideways. Typically handler leads them round in a circle to get them straight again. Horses POV - if I swing butt sideways then I get a break. (Not conscious - just a conditioned response). So you need to maintain even pressure and use a flag or something to tap bum over straight again. Similar to training a horse to pick you up from a mounting block. Again they first need to learn how to move their bum over in response to pressure. If they don't know how, teach that first.

Many loading issues arise from gaps elsewhere in horse's education and understanding.
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Very well put.
 
Love said:
Completely agree. In our case, horse will happily load and stand to eat hay but will back off as soon as the back bar is about to be hooked up. If we manage to get it on, he accepts it and stands quietly, no panicking and eats hay. Closing up rest of trailer is not an issue and he travels perfectly. Is mannerly and calm to unload too. We have managed to *sort of* overcome it using various little tricks or timing etc but everything we try is obviously not going deep enough and we ultimately end up back at this stage. Hence hoping MP might be able to show us how to solidify this more permanently. We have got to this stage from a pony that wouldn't even entertain the idea of going anywhere near the trailer - so an achievement in itself but we have been stuck at this stage for ~ a year now and not progressing it seems

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts and experiences - all very much appreciated. Trying to get together the funds to have him out.
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It's almost like it's the sudden motion of the bar going up behind that's unsettling.

Do you think it's worth, loading him and just getting him used to the bar going up by breaking the action into small, but repetitive motions?

As in lifting it a little, then back down, then a little, then down, just to desensitize him to the action gradually. Also get him used to someone just being there, and walking up the ramp, then down again, and adding extra movements to get him used to sounds behind.

I've not heard bad about MP, so in sure he will be very helpful and kind.
 
Someone at my old yard had him out, unfortunately in this case he couldn’t help and did actually advice PTS (he believed the Horse had a neurological issue) but he was completely upfront and honest and wasn’t just trying to take the owners money for greed. Horse was Pts not long after.
 
I havnt had chance to read all replies, sorry!! Do you travel with a partition? If so, could you tie a lunge line or such like to the back bar. Leave it on the floor. You walk him on but go in the opposite side to him. I assume you travel him on right, so you go up and into the left, picking up the lunge line as you go so as he gets to the front the back bar is up behind his bum.?
 
Love said:
Completely agree. In our case, horse will happily load and stand to eat hay but will back off as soon as the back bar is about to be hooked up. If we manage to get it on, he accepts it and stands quietly, no panicking and eats hay. Closing up rest of trailer is not an issue and he travels perfectly. Is mannerly and calm to unload too. We have managed to *sort of* overcome it using various little tricks or timing etc but everything we try is obviously not going deep enough and we ultimately end up back at this stage. Hence hoping MP might be able to show us how to solidify this more permanently. We have got to this stage from a pony that wouldn't even entertain the idea of going anywhere near the trailer - so an achievement in itself but we have been stuck at this stage for ~ a year now and not progressing it seems

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts and experiences - all very much appreciated. Trying to get together the funds to have him out.
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I used to do loading issues when I taught. With a horse such as this, I would ensure that I could put part on, then reverse a bit, then change my mind and ask then to go back on. Starting at a bit on the ramp, almost off and back on, to half way onto the box, back onto the ramp and on, to 3/4 way on the box, reverse to two feet on the ramp and back on... Then all on, almost back to the ramp and back on.

It is you taking control of changing their mind about reversing, changing a reverse to a go forward, with a light touch. One foot back, then forward. All feet back, then forward, thinking back, then forward. It is all just and exercise.

I would also fiddle with the back bar randomly. Up, half way up, down, forward, back, forward. Take any emotion out of the decision to back, as you can easily turn the back to a forward thought, once you get it then it will just be a 'thought' backwards before you can change that thought. And change it back again, if that is what you desire. Then you take any emotion out of the back bar. Up, down, up again. TBH, I would not do it straight up for a loooong time, nor would I travel the first time it goes up. It would be up and fixed, a bot of hat, down again, a bit back, a bit forward.

In the end, the horse will lose the emotion surrounding the reverse or the bar and just thing, "leave me alone already, I want to eat my hay" as reversing is hard work! They will cease to care.


ETA- probably obvious, but I would ensure the horse can be manoeuvred by following the feel of the rope away from the box first!
 
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