mild lameness/collapsed heels?/doesn't want to move *pics* help!

JackDaniels1

JackDaniels1

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11yo TB (ex-racer to be precise) just does not want to go forward when ridden...even walking is a struggle. Infact, there are slight marks on her side from where i have to keep nagging. On the road, i have to wear spurs as she is so backward (she is also a bit nappy).

I have tried all the usual thoughts....juggling her workload/keeping it exciting. Her teeth have been done - no change, her saddle fitted - no change, different bit - no change, different pads under saddle - no change, feed - no change. I have had an instructor out who is concerned as she says a TB of this age should not be like this. She asked me if the horse is lame - she is not obviously lame no but i am not an expert, there are times when working on a tight circle that i wonder whether she is. Instructor thinks she may have collapsed heels? I have also just hacked her out on the road and i felt she was slightly lame but maybe i am just over-reacting because someone has dared to suggest it.

Farrier comes out every 6 weeks and she has shoes on the front and barefoot on the backs. She is flat footed and has always been. She loses shoes easily and has cracks over them. When the shoes falls off, she is very foot sore - when on hardstanding, she stands on a funny stance (looks like she either has an abcess or is laminitic - best way of describing it!) hence why she has to be shod on the front.

She has just been shod - the photo quality isn't very good but can anyone spare any light:

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You will get some very good advise on here via oberon and some others and please listen, I did and now have a sound horse.
From what I see the shoeing is dreadful and is offering no support to the back off the foot ( heel area)
if he was mine I would be looking at diet now with the plan of going barefoot with boots/pads. Maybe ask for x rays to see where the pedal bone lies
 
Mine is shod in front and not on the back feet. He isn't a tb and has 'good' feet.
He sometimes feels like he's not tracking up, being lazy etc - often when he's been ridden a lot or there has been wet weather and his feet are 'soft'. Farrier keeps an eye on the back feet and says they are fine. Just have to use hoofboots from time to time to give them a rest.
Your horse's back feet look quite flat to me, flatter than my horses' feet. Have you tried hoof boots to see if it is sore feet? I would rule that out first. How about in an arena/ on soft grass? Does horse go forward more on softer ground? If horse is still lame then I would start looking elsewhere.
My friend's tb x is 17 and starting with navicular, his front feet are quite long in the toe like yours, but I am no expert so don't know if that's a factor.
 
Oh dear... I spy the tell tale, upturned over-reach boot that shows that all is not well. :( :( :( Long toes, low, under-run heels and no heel support from the shoes. :( :( :( It all reminds me of my mare before it snowballed even further and she was nearly PTS.

Make the change now, please don't wait as long as I did. There are some very helpful and knowledgeable people on this forum.

There is hope, those hooves can get better and a TB can have wonderful, strong hooves just like any other breed.
 
The shoes are very short, not supporting the heel, although there is hardly any there to support. I am not surprised she is lacking enthusiasm to move forward on the roads if she finds just standing on hard ground uncomfortable. If you lunged her in trot on a hard surface she would most likely show to be lame on both fronts.

Where you go from here will depend on finding a good person to help get her feet supported properly, either barefoot or remedial farriery, diet will need some addressing, x rays may be useful to find out what is going on inside.
 
Tbh the first thing I would do is get the vet out and do a lameness workout, you may be surprised how well your horse moves under nerve blocks!!

Where's Oberon when you need her???? HELLO WHERE ARE YOU?? ; ) your not allowed time off.
 
I agree these shoes are appalling and offering no support to the heels. TBH the ski jump shape of the hoof is a clear indicator your farrier is crap!!
I also agree in thinking mare is probably bilaterally lame on front hence the difficulties you are having.
If you can't entertain barefoot at least change your farrier, get vet out for xrays and feed for feet to improve these :(
 
She has similar feet to my last TB. Flat feet, no heel or support and can you see how her feet are splayed out. Flat feet = bruise soles which can lead to abscesses. Also if you look at the hoof from side on, the line from front of coronet band to toe should be the same angle as the line from back of coronet band to bottom of heel. Also the angle at the toe should be 45 degrees I think. Definitely get a farrier who has experience with remedial shoeing, he needs to sort the angles and get that heel off the floor! Good luck! x
 
Shoeing job not helping - but this looks like a management issue.

Lots of TB start out like this but they can be hugely improved by sorting the diet, getting the shoes off and booting with decent pads.

Doesn't have to take that long to get them much better; if you can make the required changes.

I don't think your horse is backward, nappy or lazy, feet that look like this tend to hurt.
 
Personally if this was my horse I'd take shoes off completely, look at her diet and turn her away for 6 months. Also I'd sack the farrier!
 
I'd be looking at your management too, OP. I'm not sure that taking the shoes off is the way forward, but certainly sorting out your shoeing regimen is.

My own view is that 6 weeks between shoeing is too long. I would also think about having a remedial farrier shoe the horse - and shoe the back. Also have a think about putting pads on the front feet. The feet as they are terrible.

It's concerning that you're riding a horse that is indicating a problem to you so clearly. And I would stop until the vet has done a lameness workup - including x-raying the feet - so that you know the best way forward.
 
Wagtail said:
I think she has some pedal bone rotation in the first two hooves. I would start by getting xrays.
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badgermyers said:
I was going to suggest maybe reverse rotation of the pedal bone?
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What makes you suggest that ?

Not a dig but a genuine question. Having nearly lost my previous horse to a bad farrier (Farrier sacked and new farrier found PDQ) I find these types of threads very interesting :)
 
I agree with AmyMay, except i would take shoes off!

Those feet are awful but i'm sure with vets help, a decent farrier & good diet you will be able to turn them around.

Stop ridden work & call your vet. Do LOTS of research on he about barefoot diet, i think that your horse will need this even if you put shoes back on.

Six weeks is too long between farrier visits for a lot of horses & it does vary at different times of the year.

Good luck, let us know how you get on.
 
badgermyers said:
I was going to suggest maybe reverse rotation of the pedal bone?
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I personally would suspect navicular - as the feet are a typical 'shape' for it.

But it's all summation at the end of the day. The OP needs some serious help - and the vet is the first place to start.
 
carefreegirl said:
What makes you suggest that ?

Not a dig but a genuine question. Having nearly lost my previous horse to a bad farrier (Farrier sacked and new farrier found PDQ) I find these types of threads very interesting :)
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In the second picture you can clearly see a change in angle of the hoof wall. This would suggest that the white line has become stretched as the pedal bone's connection has become weak. The angle at the top of the hoof is the angle that the hoof is trying to grow in. But the weak connection is indicated where the hoof pulls away from the bone at the lower part of the hoof.
 
Her feet are similar to what my horses were like and he was lame on stoney ground. He now has natural balance shoes and have improved massively. I know a lot of people like bare foot but its not practical where I live as our yard and all the bridle paths are made of large stones and my horse is up for loan / sale so I don't have the time to wait for his feet to get used to no shoes.
 
amymay said:
I personally would suspect navicular - as the feet are a typical 'shape' for it.

But it's all summation at the end of the day. The OP needs some serious help - and the vet is the first place to start.
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That did cross my mind too, but I didnt really want to say it. I have been with a vet this summer and most of the xrays showing upward rotation the feet looks just like these with collapsed heels and long toe (even if the toe had been trimmed back, flat feet ect). I am also doing my dissertation on foot balance, no way an expert but from what ive found so far, plus the vets experience that was what I could suggest.
 
I second what Amymay has said in that I am very concerned that you are still riding this horse, OP. I am especially worried when you say you are using spurs to hack out, and that you have left marks on your horse's sides. Stop working her until you find out what is wrong. No horse, let lone a TB should be this 'backwards'. Poor thing is probably in a lot of pain, and it says a lot about her lovely nature that she has not 'exploded' with you.
 
Wagtail said:
In the second picture you can clearly see a change in angle of the hoof wall. This would suggest that the white line has become stretched as the pedal bone's connection has become weak. The angle at the top of the hoof is the angle that the hoof is trying to grow in. But the weak connection is indicated where the hoof pulls away from the bone at the lower part of the hoof.
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I agree with this, but 'rotation' is relative. I would be surprised if p3 had reverse rotated, as the foot is not the typical shape associated with a negative palmar angle.

I would address diet and remove the shoes. The back feet look better than the fronts amymay, so why risk them going the same way by shoeing them too?

The feet are desperately trying to improve - you can see this by the new angle of growth Wagtail mentioned. The poor shoeing is preventing this, however.

I also agree that you should not be working this horse.
 
The back feet look better than the fronts amymay, so why risk them going the same way by shoeing them too?
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Despite what others may think, shoeing is rarely a bad option. However, some people do prefer to have their horses unshod which I totally respect.

My personal view is that taking the shoes off would be the wrong thing for this horse, and I would want a full set of shoes on after veterinary and remedial farriery consultation.

However, the only person that can really advice the op is obviously their vet.
 
Regarding whether to shoe or not, I would suspect this horse would be painfully lame wthout shoes for an unacceptable amount of time. However, I also think that driving nails through an obviously already compromised hoof wall, would be detrimental. If this horse is insured then I would use glue on shoes such as imprints on the fronts. I would then, a few months down the line, take the shoes off all together and buy some boots for working her in.
 
HazyXmas said:
I agree with AmyMay, except i would take shoes off!

Those feet are awful but i'm sure with vets help, a decent farrier & good diet you will be able to turn them around.

Stop ridden work & call your vet. Do LOTS of research on he about barefoot diet, i think that your horse will need this even if you put shoes back on.

Six weeks is too long between farrier visits for a lot of horses & it does vary at different times of the year.

Good luck, let us know how you get on.
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I agree with most of this too.
 
amymay said:
Despite what others may think, shoeing is rarely a bad option. However, some people do prefer to have their horses unshod which I totally respect.

My personal view is that taking the shoes off would be the wrong thing for this horse, and I would want a full set of shoes on after veterinary and remedial farriery consultation.

However, the only person that can really advice the op is obviously their vet.
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I didn't mean to imply that shoeing will always cause problems, however the OP's farrier has not done a good job in this instance imo, so I would be wary of letting him loose on the hinds as well.
 
TwoStroke said:
I didn't mean to imply that shoeing will always cause problems, however the OP's farrier has not done a good job in this instance imo, so I would be wary of letting him loose on the hinds as well.
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Oh, God no - not this farrier.

As in my initial post - a good remedial farrier who actually knows what he's doing.
 
TwoStroke said:
I agree with this, but 'rotation' is relative. I would be surprised if p3 had reverse rotated, as the foot is not the typical shape associated with a negative palmar angle.

I would address diet and remove the shoes. The back feet look better than the fronts amymay, so why risk them going the same way by shoeing them too?

The feet are desperately trying to improve - you can see this by the new angle of growth Wagtail mentioned. The poor shoeing is preventing this, however.

I also agree that you should not be working this horse.
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I agree, the hoof shape is not like one that has reverse rotated. I would say it has a positive rotation if anything. I am wondering about the condition score of this horse. It may have had laminitis.
 
Is this the same mare that's ridden in a Waterford dutch gag but not strong?!
I am also wondering why the op hasn't come back seeing as she wanted help and went to the trouble to post pics?
 
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