Mildly lame, didn't pass vet check

sandi_84

sandi_84

Well-Known Member
Joined
22 November 2011
Messages
4,124
Visit site
Had the vet check for my mum's second horse out (yes she's bought him already, different story but if all fails she can return him) and the vet decided that he was mildly lame on his left hind :(
The YO and her sister couldn't see it so asked the vet to stay and everyone have a look as I trotted up and down, up and down. YO and sis still disagreed with vet but vet stayed firm - tbh I couldn't see it myself either but I'm not very good at noticing subtle lameness, it has to be pretty obvious for me to see it properly.
Anyway the vet won't sign off on him and we'll have to get her out again another time (another £126) to check again. YO is getting another vet out herself for a second opinion as her and some other experienced people had me trot him up again after the vet had left and none of them could see this mild lameness.
YO isn't a fan of this particular vet and she says that when my boy was vet checked (same vet) it was her first time on her own and there was a bit of a kerfuffle trying to take bloods where she seemed quite nervous (my lad has needle phobia :rolleyes:) where as the other vet that the YO uses was perfectly calm giving him his 2 jabs over the last few months.
Just as a wee aside about the vet today, she is a lovely girl but as I'm a first time owner I just am not the best judge on vet checks/ vets themselves.
The problem is that we have no other vets nearby that can do equine checks and the other vet lady (who is brilliant) can't sign off on vet checks - can't remember why tho :o
I know it's difficult to say having not seen for yourself but what do you guys think?
 
TBH, even if people on the yard can't see the lameness, I'd be inclined to stick with the vets opinion anyway, and assume the horse is lame. Hindlimb lamenesses are difficult to spot, the lameness has to be moderate-severe before it produces a head nod, which is probably the thing that most owners look for. Mild HL lameness can be nothing more than a shortening of stride/uneven footfall and a slight hip hike. Despite having grown up with horses, I wasn't confident at spotting mild (1 or 2/10) hindlimb lameness until my final years of vet school - developing this skill takes hours watching horses trotting up; I spent 2 weeks at an Australian racing practice and watched 20-50 racehorses trotted up daily, and by the end was just starting to get confident with my 1/10 HL lamenesses, the vet I was with was very experienced and picked up the tiniest of gait abnormalities within a few strides.
 
There was no head nodding, shortening of strides, he still tracked up and there was no difference between hips at lowest or highest point. I don't know, usually I'd take any vet advice as gospel but the people who were watching are all pretty experienced and have no vested interest in whether or not he is lame.
Paint me confused and confuddled :confused:
 
Difficult to see hind leg lameness unless you are very experienced. Did you notice anything getting worse after the flexion tests? Did she try lunging on hard ground (this is a bit risky as the horse may slip but if it can be done in a controlled manner it can exacerbate a lameness). Also, did the vet try 'markers' to help you see the lameness? (this is where the vet sticks little bits of sticky white tape standing up on points of the horse's back end and that way it's easier to see if there is uneveness).
 
Booboos said:
Difficult to see hind leg lameness unless you are very experienced. Did you notice anything getting worse after the flexion tests? Did she try lunging on hard ground (this is a bit risky as the horse may slip but if it can be done in a controlled manner it can exacerbate a lameness). Also, did the vet try 'markers' to help you see the lameness? (this is where the vet sticks little bits of sticky white tape standing up on points of the horse's back end and that way it's easier to see if there is uneveness).
Click to expand...

She didn't try lunging on hard ground although we did offer to do this and she didn't put markers on him. She just stood her ground that it was very mild but she couldn't sign off on him.
She did the flexion tests on both hinds but the YO feels she "cranked" his left hind up higher than the right - as I was doing the trotting up I couldn't really see for myself.
On both sides after flexion he had two slightly dodgey strides before he trotted it out, but as I understand (please correct me if I've got this wrong, like to learn things correctly) it that's pretty normal as it's like inducing a cramp and seeing how long it takes to go back to normal kind of thing, but after those 2 strides he was back to trotting the way he was before flexion.
 
By all means get a second opinion but I would be inclined to trust the vet over your YO as already said above; they have had the necessary training. Your farrier might be a good one to ask too as I believe they also have to watch many horses trot up for thier training. Also...the cost of another vetting is nothing compared to the vet bills buying a lame horse may bring.
 
The lunging on hard ground can sometimes be helpful as it exacerbates the problem and it becomes more evident. The markers can make it easier for non-specialists to see slight hind lamenesses, my vet had used them before to show me 1/10th lameness in the left hind and they were very helpful.

To be honest failing these two things I think the only thing you can do now is get another vet out or walk away from the sale. I would not go ahead and buy a lame horse. He may well have a costly vet bill in his future and I think that many insurance companies won't insure without a vet certificate.
 
Persephone said:
Why have the vet if you are not going to listen to her?
Click to expand...

It also sounds as if the YO is trying to undermine this vet for some reason re the injection comment, it is totally different to give a flu jab intramuscularly to getting a blood sample when they need to get the needle into a vein, nowhere near as easy, especially with a difficult horse.
 
If you're quite convinced the vet is wrong, get a second opinion. But please don't just trust other people because they're experienced. Experienced doesn't actually mean knowledgable, nor good at lameness. Afterall, I've known a horse for over 10 years who hasn't had a lame day in her life...

Many very experienced horse people told me my old mare was sound, yet when riding she just didn't feel right. I eventually discovered my instincts were right and she had been slightly lame.

It's so easy to miss.
 
Was the horse ridden? If so, did the rider feel that the horse was unsound? Sometimes it can be easier to feel lameness than to see it.
If you like the horse, I'd think it was worth getting a 2nd opinion. TBH, flexion tests are very controversial. They were introduced to try to spot 'doping'. If the horse didn't show a few uneven strides, after the 'flexion', it was probably 'doped'. So why it has now become a test of soundness, that the horse is supposed to pass, I really don't know.
 
You don't study for years at Uni for nothing. Sorry but I'd be 110% with the Vet. Forget "experienced" people , the vet is who my money would be on.
 
Persephone said:
Why have the vet if you are not going to listen to her?
Click to expand...

^ That sounded a bit grumpy. I did listen to her, it was my YO who disagreed with her. I was only asking for opinions because vet lady said one thing and a couple of people say another. Like I said before usually I would take what the vet says as gospel but as this was a very mild lameness issue and because I haven't got the experienced eye to be able to see it I just wanted to talk to other HHOers because they give pretty good advice.

Booboos said:
To be honest failing these two things I think the only thing you can do now is get another vet out or walk away from the sale. I would not go ahead and buy a lame horse. He may well have a costly vet bill in his future and I think that many insurance companies won't insure without a vet certificate.
Click to expand...

Ah but mum has already paid for him you see :o She's hoping to get vet out again in a few days/week and a bit to see if there is any change and if not she may have to take him back.

be positive said:
It also sounds as if the YO is trying to undermine this vet for some reason re the injection comment, it is totally different to give a flu jab intramuscularly to getting a blood sample when they need to get the needle into a vein, nowhere near as easy, especially with a difficult horse.
Click to expand...

I know what you mean about it being a lot easier to get jabs done than take blood but it was my opinion that the vet seemed really nervous. Felt a bit sorry for her because at one point she almost ran all the way out of the stable because he shifted round a bit (not much and just to get away not to kick) quite fast :o I can understand why she was nervous because he was being difficult but I think the other vet lady is a bit calmer and more experienced. Not that todays vet isn't a lovely girl tho!

MissSBird said:
If you're quite convinced the vet is wrong, get a second opinion. But please don't just trust other people because they're experienced. Experienced doesn't actually mean knowledgable, nor good at lameness. Afterall, I've known a horse for over 10 years who hasn't had a lame day in her life...

Many very experienced horse people told me my old mare was sound, yet when riding she just didn't feel right. I eventually discovered my instincts were right and she had been slightly lame.

It's so easy to miss.
Click to expand...

Mum will definately be getting the vet out again, don't worry :D

Pearlsasinger said:
Was the horse ridden? If so, did the rider feel that the horse was unsound? Sometimes it can be easier to feel lameness than to see it.
If you like the horse, I'd think it was worth getting a 2nd opinion. TBH, flexion tests are very controversial. They were introduced to try to spot 'doping'. If the horse didn't show a few uneven strides, after the 'flexion', it was probably 'doped'. So why it has now become a test of soundness, that the horse is supposed to pass, I really don't know.
Click to expand...

He was ridden by the YO, crash test dummy, one of the ladies who loans a horse at the yard, my mum rode him and I had a very quick ride the day she bought him. YO and crash test dummy had no problems with him, nor did the lady who had a lesson on him. My mum and I didn't feel anything amiss when we rode but again that could be down to lack of experience and the mildness of the lameness maybe?
 
Goldenstar said:
Aggree with this you paid the vet for inspection that what's she's trained to do not the , subtle lameness is difficult to see
Click to expand...

Please read the very top of my last post.
I am only looking for peoples opinions because I couldn't see it and we are getting the vet out again in a wee while. I did take on board what she said and was happy to leave it at that but the YO disagreed with her, NOT me.
 
Presumably you had this particular vet for a reason...... And as others say, hind limb lameness can be difficult to spot.

Give the horse a week and have it re-checked. And of course it shouldn't cost any where near £126. But even if it did, it's not a lot of money in the big scheme of things.

As for your YO. Ignore. It's not their money or horse. The vet is the professional here.
 
At the end of an endurance ride we often have to trot up infront of 3 vets (We call it the 3 card trick) all we need is 2 of the vets to say that the horse is sound ,to pass. many occations it is the opinion.

I would never let a vet do a flex test this is not a true diagnosis of slight lameness. Try bending your own leg up and then run as soon as you unbend your leg. How often do you then run a couple of strides lame,see what I mean.

I would check also incase there is a small cut or a small amount of mud fever that is making the horse sore. This happened to a friend of mine who went to buy a horse, the vet stopped the vetting at stage 2 because the mare was very slightly lame. After the mare had been in for a week and the very small amount of mud fever was sorted they lunged her and did a lameness work up (Owner works at a vet collage) the horse is 100% sound.

There can be a number of reasons for lameness.

A vetting is only as good as the vet and like the MOT on a car it is at that moment the vetting is done. Again I went with a friend to buy a horse and it failed on mild lameness. One week later the same horse did an endurance ride and got a Grade one with no sign of lameness at all. It was believed that the horse either got kicked or knocked itself the day before.
 
Last edited:
Persephone said:
Why have the vet if you are not going to listen to her?
Click to expand...
I realise that you are correct in this advise, but sometimes one draws a short straw, it is not until one has used a vet that one knows if you have doubts.
I had to complain to a senior vet about his lady vet, who was asked to come out to my foal, she banged on for quite a long time about checking the afterbirth, in the end I had to point out that the foal was three days old, not 10 hours as she seemed to think, this threw her and she then pronounced that the foals should not go out [what ever?] because its was down on its fetlocks, I have worked in a public stud and seen plenty of foals, this was a very mild case and would have sorted itself out without bandaging or anything.
I once presented a 24 hour foal [I missed it when I did my rounds in the field], to my stud manager as a 12 hour foal, he was none to impressed, I can tell you.
To get back to this vetting, there is no reason not to lunge on the hard, and try to make the lameness more evident by a second flexion test, but once the vet has "pronounced" there is no going back.
A second opinion is required.
 
I realise that you are correct in this advice, but sometimes one draws a short straw, it is not until one has used a vet that one knows if you have doubts.
Click to expand...

Common sense dictates that if you're using you're own practice you request a specific vet - one that you have used before, and whose judgement you trust.

And whilst I agree with you that there is no reason not to lunge on the hard, it's a pretty awful thing to do to a horse. And of course, once the vet has 'pronounced' the vetting stops, and there is plenty of going back, and no second opinion is required (unless it is evident that the vet is stumped). You simply give the horse a week's rest, and re-inspect.
 
Ludoctro said:
You don't study for years at Uni for nothing. Sorry but I'd be 110% with the Vet. Forget "experienced" people , the vet is who my money would be on.
Click to expand...

TBH i know some very experienced people who couldnt spot a mild hl lameness and a few who couldnt spot a 3 legged horse !!!
Your vet has done their job, if you trust the vet why would you ignore their advice ?
 
Persephone said:
Why have the vet if you are not going to listen to her?
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly....and horses don't nod when they're lame on the back? well atleast my old TB didn't and he had hock spavin!

ETS - there are plenty of sound horses - hock problems are not worth the heart ache or money.....
 
As far as I know front leg lameness can be seen with the nodding head. For hind limb lameness you need to compare the action of one hind leg to the other, personally I look at the hip movement from behind, but I do find it tough to spot hind limb lameness. The little tape markers make it easier to compare the two hind limbs as they give you a point of reference for differences of level. Bilateral hind limb lameness can be tough to spot.

I am a bit unsure whether your mother owns the horse and had it vetted for her own purposes, or whether she agreed to buy subject to vetting which it has now failed. If it's the latter I think your mum needs to contact the owner asap and let them know what has happened. Then they can decide what to do, i.e. return horse for refund, re-examine, etc. If she owns the horse then she can field rest him for a couple of weeks and get another vet out for a lameness exam to get to the bottom of the problem if there is one.
 
This horse, I just re read the OP, has already been paid for so where is the owner in all this they need to be in the loop and have an opinion on the next thing to do.
Lame or not I would be furious if not informed that a vetting was taking place and I was not told about it, to then have a lame horse returned several weeks later after a second inspection. If any thing does show up I hope they have kept the insurance going otherwise it could prove expensive for someone.
 
Not much would get past me with any type of lameness, sometimes on a good concrete surface the trick is to listen to the footfalls, any difference in pitch can indicate lameness. If you are then concerned lunging on the hard is a useful diagnostic test as it puts more pressure on the bad leg. Flexions will only tell you if the horse is stiff through the hock or fetlock, not any sort of minor soft tissue injury. I flexion only to get a further idea of where lameness could be. Get the farrier out, there could be a tiny amount of bruising to the foot or something else going on. A large percentage of lameness is foot or balance related (esp in cases where horse is very mildly lame. It could just be a mild knock. If the vet returns and still sees a mild lameness then if your still keen on the horse pay to have it nerve blocked and scanned.
 
I have seen head nod on a horse with HLL through degenerative joint disease it was evident on a slight incline, although he was fairly obviously lame anayway, but sorer still when on the incline
 
amymay said:
This. Unless the lameness is severe - then it's obvious to all;)
Click to expand...

My experience is that bilateral hind limb lameness can be very difficult to spot even if severe because there is nothing to compare it to. I've had three vets including specialist ortho, look at a bilaterally hind lame horse and not see anything, in desperation they nerve blocked (to figure out why his patela kept locking) and he was 3/5ths and 4/5ths lame on both legs. When he was nerve blocked on one leg you immediately saw that he was entirely crippled poor chap.

Anyway, back to the OP. Sorry I am still confused. Normally horses are vetted PRIOR to purchase. If this was a buy and then get the horse vetted agreement it's a bit odd, but since the horse has failed it should be returned asap. The owner may well refuse to take it back if weeks and weeks have passed and I don't blame them! If the horse has been sold it's original insurance won't be valid anymore it will need to be re-insured by the new owner (OP's mum if I understand this right) but most insurance companies would require a vet certificate and exclude pre-existing conditions (which is what I would imagine any insurance would say this is).
 
amymay said:
Common sense dictates that if you're using you're own practice you request a specific vet - one that you have used before, and whose judgement you trust.

You simply give the horse a week's rest, and re-inspect.
Click to expand...


She's the only equine vet nearby.
There doesn't seem to be any nicks or grazes on his legs and they aren't hot or swollen. I can't find any signs of mud fever either. He may just have tweaked something out in the field.
Anyhooo ladies and gents Mum is getting the vet out again hopefully next week and with any luck whatever is causing it will have passed.
Thank you!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top