Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
And me I need two one for each side
Mini-rant: Getting your horse to go "down on the bit"
- Thread starter Bee<3
- Start date
And me I need two one for each side
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
A bicycle?
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Tsk... A bit excessive. Moderation is the key. You don't want the judge to cotton on
tonitot
Well-Known Member
Sophiebailey, I have her on a long rein to start and try to let her work long and low although she uses this as an opportunity to stick her head up and whizz round. Sometimes though she will put her head right down and really stretch. I give her breaks from holding her head nicely through the session as she lets me know she's tired but it seems that once she's tired thats that, she doesnt want to work anymore. Same when we canter, when I get her back into trot she doesnt want to work properly at all, just goes fast with her head up though I work on her and eventually we get it back together.
Milliemoomie, I know, I hated jabbing her but at the time thought that it would stop her, though it was quickly apparent it didn't and I've never jabbed her again. That does make sense, I'll give it a go
Milliemoomie, I know, I hated jabbing her but at the time thought that it would stop her, though it was quickly apparent it didn't and I've never jabbed her again. That does make sense, I'll give it a go
tonitot
Well-Known Member
Faracat, you'll all think I'm a complete dope now but I'm always confused as to what lateral work is 
is it leg yeilding etc? If so then yes, I do leg yeilding to and away from the track and on circles but not much else. Polework results in a very excited Ethel as it obviously means jumping, the more I do it to try and get her to realise there will be no jumping, just poles, the more she gets excited thinking we must be jumping soon!
is it leg yeilding etc? If so then yes, I do leg yeilding to and away from the track and on circles but not much else. Polework results in a very excited Ethel as it obviously means jumping, the more I do it to try and get her to realise there will be no jumping, just poles, the more she gets excited thinking we must be jumping soon!
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Faracat, you'll all think I'm a complete dope now but I'm always confused as to what lateral work is
I don't think you're a dope.
Yes, I do mean leg yeilding etc... It's just that doing those two things have the added side effect of getting my mare to naturally lower her head, so I wondered if they would help you too.
It sounds like pole work is great for producing impulsion with Ethel...
Natch
Well-Known Member
A useful explanation I had was the toothpaste tube. You want to do enough with your legs to have a constant flow of toothpaste trying to flow out of the top, and do just enough with your hands to keep the lid of the toothpaste on so it doesn't squeeze out. Your legs encourage the horse's hind legs to be active and your seat encourages him to engage and step under. Meanwhile your hands are there gently saying that you're not asking for faster, and in the case of charliehands' horse they also need to say 'and carry the weight of your own head, please' 
There is no one right way with horses, it's whatever works for that horse, that day. Unfortunately there are many wrong ways, and chainsawing or holding a strong contact are both detrimental to the cause IMO because they are not going to teach the horse to accept and respond to a light yielding contact. Holding a strong contact would make many horses set their necks against you and ignore your rein aids; sawing on the mouth is too strong but probably the lesser if the two evils if I am honest, as long as she quits doing it when the horse yields (and probably goes overbent by the way).
A useful way that helps many horses understand is to start off moving forwards with impulsion at an even rhythm (If your horse can't do that, asking for a horse to come into a better outline is too advanced for him just yet). You also need to be working with your horse not leaning on your hands, and he needs to accept you using your hands, even if he doesn't understand it. If not, again, you need to establish that first. And that he is off the forehand. You see, it's true when they say that an outline is one of the final things to fall into place after you get everything else sorted. If everything else is sorted your horse will more than likely be in a reasonable outline without you having to do anything else. If you need to encourage him to move his head slightly, keeping a steady (NOT strong) contact on the outside rein and gently jiggling (NOT sawing) the inside one may encourage them to yield. On some horses I have ridden, jiggling at a different speed, alternate reins, in rhythm, out of rhythm have been more/ less successful, but always always stop when he does something a bit more like what you want him to do so that he knows that 'if she does this, I need to do that'.
If your horse is heavy in your hands, you and your instructor will need to work on his balance through transitions, turns and circles etc getting him up off the forehand working in self carriage. Give and retake the rein is useful to help them learn not to lean on your hands any more, and you may have to do some quite firm squeezes/excessive jiggling to get them to understand and change initially, but that can be refined.
A horse with his head in the air is unlikely to be balanced and is not accepting your bit contact. I would advise transitions, working on maintaining a steady rhythm in trot, lots of changes in direction and different schooling manoeuvres to keep his focus on you and improve lateral flexibility, and make sure your seat and hands are nice and light.
Remember an outline is so much more than 'on the bit'. It's your horse using his whole body from hindlegs through his back; the head is the final piece of the jigsaw puzzle.
Mary wanless' books are a good read, and I'm sure someone else can recommend some good classical dressage books too
There is no one right way with horses, it's whatever works for that horse, that day. Unfortunately there are many wrong ways, and chainsawing or holding a strong contact are both detrimental to the cause IMO because they are not going to teach the horse to accept and respond to a light yielding contact. Holding a strong contact would make many horses set their necks against you and ignore your rein aids; sawing on the mouth is too strong but probably the lesser if the two evils if I am honest, as long as she quits doing it when the horse yields (and probably goes overbent by the way).
A useful way that helps many horses understand is to start off moving forwards with impulsion at an even rhythm (If your horse can't do that, asking for a horse to come into a better outline is too advanced for him just yet). You also need to be working with your horse not leaning on your hands, and he needs to accept you using your hands, even if he doesn't understand it. If not, again, you need to establish that first. And that he is off the forehand. You see, it's true when they say that an outline is one of the final things to fall into place after you get everything else sorted. If everything else is sorted your horse will more than likely be in a reasonable outline without you having to do anything else. If you need to encourage him to move his head slightly, keeping a steady (NOT strong) contact on the outside rein and gently jiggling (NOT sawing) the inside one may encourage them to yield. On some horses I have ridden, jiggling at a different speed, alternate reins, in rhythm, out of rhythm have been more/ less successful, but always always stop when he does something a bit more like what you want him to do so that he knows that 'if she does this, I need to do that'.
If your horse is heavy in your hands, you and your instructor will need to work on his balance through transitions, turns and circles etc getting him up off the forehand working in self carriage. Give and retake the rein is useful to help them learn not to lean on your hands any more, and you may have to do some quite firm squeezes/excessive jiggling to get them to understand and change initially, but that can be refined.
A horse with his head in the air is unlikely to be balanced and is not accepting your bit contact. I would advise transitions, working on maintaining a steady rhythm in trot, lots of changes in direction and different schooling manoeuvres to keep his focus on you and improve lateral flexibility, and make sure your seat and hands are nice and light.
Remember an outline is so much more than 'on the bit'. It's your horse using his whole body from hindlegs through his back; the head is the final piece of the jigsaw puzzle.
Mary wanless' books are a good read, and I'm sure someone else can recommend some good classical dressage books too
ThereSheIs
Well-Known Member
This is how I have been taught. I hope this is the correct way! I had one lesson when it turned from a little wiggle to ask, into pretty much sawing and I wasn't very happy with that - it doesn't achieve the same thing at all - which is saying something for me to notice because I am a bit of a novice!!
Once I had a fantastic lesson where I did not ask, I was given (I know this because at the time an outline was that thing dressage horses did where they arch their necks
nor did I know how to ask anyway!). I think it must be the truest outline I've experienced riding. I had asked for some longer steps down the long sides (smaller on the short sides) and after a couple of goes, boom! It all just fell into place, completely unforced. The horse was quite experienced in dressage I think but the instructor did say he wouldn't have done it if I hadn't been riding well so I suppose I did something right!
I think that has helped because now I know what sort of feeling I'm looking for (forward and softness). It does get a bit confusing when people teach you different things though.
LittleBlackMule
Well-Known Member
Tsk... A bit excessive. Moderation is the key. You don't want the judge to cotton on
I would have thought two would be necessary for balance.
For those riding in more urban areas, pitbulls would probably do just as well, but don't let them overtake as that could cause the horse to go BTV.
tonitot
Well-Known Member
Faracat, thanks, I've always been confused by what lateral work is, I know the movements names but not if theyre a lateral movement or not
To be honest I haven't done polework in a long time with her, maybe I'll just go back to it and hope that as shes grown up a bit she'll realise it doesnt mean jumping
she loves her jumping, best thing ever to her!
Natch, thanks for that, it's all very interesting I'm going to ride her this evening (if it stops bloomin raining!) and really work on this. I do wonder if she needs a different bit though as she can also get strong when she leans, she currently has an eggbutt snaffle with a lozenge.
To be honest I haven't done polework in a long time with her, maybe I'll just go back to it and hope that as shes grown up a bit she'll realise it doesnt mean jumping
she loves her jumping, best thing ever to her!Natch, thanks for that, it's all very interesting
I'm going to ride her this evening (if it stops bloomin raining!) and really work on this. I do wonder if she needs a different bit though as she can also get strong when she leans, she currently has an eggbutt snaffle with a lozenge.sophiebailey
Well-Known Member
Tonitot, it sounds more like rushing than disobedience which can often mean a horse is uncomfortable. Speed can be a way of 'evading' pain. I found out my horses rushing was a result of an ill fitting saddle that was pinching him in trot. Had a new saddle and he didn't rush. Starting rushing again a year or so later, had saddle, teeth back etc checked, turned out it was arthritis. I would say if help from an instructor isn't correcting the rushing off maybe have your horses back etc checked to make sure it's not a pain reflex? Good luck
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Lateral just means sideways.
JillA
Well-Known Member
Still such an over emphass on the hands 
My horse puts himself in an outline in an american halter when he is being lunged. He does that because I encourage him to track up really well with the inside hind - and if he didn't balance himself with his neck rounded and his face just in front of the vertical he would fall flat on his front end! Go figure. Actually, try it yourself on all fours - if you need to get your legs further under you you have to counterbalance with your head to stop yourslef from falling fowards.
But I have seen the learners with the hands lower than the withers too - the fulcrum effect means that is most likely to raise the head, not lower it, and create a hollow neck and back. If you have any doubts, at walk take a contact (yes, little bird) and keeping that contact, lift your hands to above a point half way up the neck. Result? Head goes down, back no longer hollows and hind legs are free to engage.
My horse puts himself in an outline in an american halter when he is being lunged. He does that because I encourage him to track up really well with the inside hind - and if he didn't balance himself with his neck rounded and his face just in front of the vertical he would fall flat on his front end! Go figure. Actually, try it yourself on all fours - if you need to get your legs further under you you have to counterbalance with your head to stop yourslef from falling fowards.
But I have seen the learners with the hands lower than the withers too - the fulcrum effect means that is most likely to raise the head, not lower it, and create a hollow neck and back. If you have any doubts, at walk take a contact (yes, little bird) and keeping that contact, lift your hands to above a point half way up the neck. Result? Head goes down, back no longer hollows and hind legs are free to engage.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Just need to let some steam off.Girl at my stables gets her horse to go "down on the bit" by putting her hands right down below the withers and uses a 'chain-saw' action. She insists the horse is going lovely but I'm sure the horse isn't very comfortable. I've always been told to have a strong contact, push the horse forward and as soon as its hind legs start going forward properly, the horse will go into an outline. Opinions?
Rant over
Look at it this way. A strong contact is just another way of saying hang on to the mouth, which common sense says would encourage a horse to stop or go backwards. Then push it forward and tell it to move. It can't be right can it?
There's a living breathing creature at the end of those reins, with a mouth so delicate it can pick the flower off a thistle.
Elf On A Shelf
...
I thought you had to jack your stirrups up so that your thighs were vertical, sit like a sack of spuds on the back of your saddle, lock your hands behind your knees which are constantly wigging because you are forever niggling with yor feet?!?
Aarrghimpossiblepony
Well-Known Member
TrasaM
Well-Known Member
Readily available at most local shows... Can't guarantee pedigree but since only yap-factor is important, should be easy to secure a good specimen. They are definitely getting smaller as the years go by... You used to be able to see them years ago but now you only know you're near one when you've trodden on it.
Shame badminton is over. There were some delightful specimens on show
Ah hem .. Tallyho's feelings about small happy dogs is already on record. It would seem that she's come up with a useful purpose for these small annoying critters at last
Donkey66
Well-Known Member
Get your horse trotting on a circle, use an open rein with the inside hand (move it sideways towards the middle of the circle by a few inches) and then use your inside leg behind the girth. Use the outside rein if necessary to prevent going faster, and the outside leg to prevent the horses hindquarters swinging out.
What you are trying to achieve is for the horse to cross it's inside hind leg in front of the other a little, as it reaches under with it's hind leg it will build up muscles in its back so becoming better able to carry out the exercise. You will know when you are doing it correctly because the horses head will drop down where you want it to be.
What you are trying to achieve is for the horse to cross it's inside hind leg in front of the other a little, as it reaches under with it's hind leg it will build up muscles in its back so becoming better able to carry out the exercise. You will know when you are doing it correctly because the horses head will drop down where you want it to be.
SNORKEY
Well-Known Member
This is one of my biggest hates. You ride with your seat and leg. I can ride my horse on the bit with his reins loose in his neck.
Someone needs to pull her aside and tell her she's ruining her horses mouth and to get some lessons.
Someone needs to pull her aside and tell her she's ruining her horses mouth and to get some lessons.
ATrueClassAct
Well-Known Member
Or someone put the bit in her mouth and chain- saw on her mouth
Remember once when I first got my lady many many moons, my instructor at the time said if I was heavy with my hands with her one more time, she'd put the bridle in my mouth and do it to me and see how I liked the feel! She put fear of the bit into me But her point got through
Remember once when I first got my lady many many moons, my instructor at the time said if I was heavy with my hands with her one more time, she'd put the bridle in my mouth and do it to me and see how I liked the feel! She put fear of the bit into me
But her point got through
Cortez
Tough but Fair
The one thing this thread is doing for me is making me ask, again, who on earth is teaching this way? And where did they (the instructors) learn this stuff? It's HORRIFYING!
Dexter
Well-Known Member
I teach at a riding school and sometimes the kids just dont get about having soft hands. I take a spare snaffle bridle into the lesson, put their hand in the joint and apply gently pressure. They dont yank after that!
RoughcutDiamond
Well-Known Member
I used to be at a yard where this is the norm, and I was guilty of thinking this was OK until I took my lad on, came online to get some assistance/advice and then grew a backbone and refused to go down that route. A super visiting instructor came to the yard for a while and taught anyone from YO/YM to me and the Thelwell wannabe and she always stressed the need to deal with the "engine" first. I used to watch other more "advanced" lessons to see what I could pick up and usually her interpretation was 'horse looks 'pretty' but isn't working correctly' and she was forever trying to get folks out of the sawing hands action that was so prevalent. I learned such a lot from her and yet so many others didn't like her direct approach and the fact that she wouldn't praise something that clearly wasn't working, so they stopped booking, she was too far away to come for me alone and I had no transport. We progressed slowly but steadily under her tutelage and I miss that. Meanwhile my boy is asked to work rhythmically and in a forward manner and, once warmed up, will put himself in a correct position where I can really feel him driving forward from behind. Have since found someone else who teaches in much the same vein so hopefully our progress will resume soon.
Meanwhile, the sawing lessons go on......
Marydoll
Well-Known Member
If it was up to me all riders would learn first on a lunge with a neckstrap and until they got their balance and feel for what was going on underneath them they wouldnt get near a set of reins, just my opinion
MoonRiver
Well-Known Member
I don't get the whole hands down by the withers/shoulders thing either, all you are asking is for the horse to drag himself head first into a hole. It seems to have replaced the sawing action as the quick fix to tuck the head in, the only result being the head is tucked in .Hindquarters are still dragging along in the breeze behind them.
.Hindquarters are still dragging along in the breeze behind them.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
I guess the same sort of place I was taught to saw (many years ago) by a supposedly qualified "BHSAI" at a supposedly "reputable" equestrian centre which was supposedly "approved" and had badges and certificates proudly displayed EVERYWHERE. The hundreds of kids that went though there are easy to spot by their awkward horses and awkward hands... awful.
No matter where I go in the country, the same applies which only leads me to believe that it's the standards of training which are left desired. I made my feelings clear on the BHS thread.
p.s. I'm not tarring all instructors with the same brush but there has to be a gap in the training somewhere...
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Patterdale
Well-Known Member
I explain it to my pupils this way -
Contact should be like you're holding a toddlers hand to cross the road. If you're both happy then it need only be very light, more of a guide, but must still always be there.
If they are trying to pull away from you it needs to be stronger, but must never ever be uncomfortable as this will only make them pull harder away from you.
Contact should be like you're holding a toddlers hand to cross the road. If you're both happy then it need only be very light, more of a guide, but must still always be there.
If they are trying to pull away from you it needs to be stronger, but must never ever be uncomfortable as this will only make them pull harder away from you.
Elf On A Shelf
...
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Magic Hands will give you the ultimate feel of your horse. They will also convey exactly what you want of your horse at the merest thought. Whether your jumping, hacking, dressaging or beach donkeying Magic Hands are the way forward!
If you would like a pair please send you name and address to:
NoQuickFix@RideWell.Gifted.Com
You will also need to pay by Paypal to that address the sum of £1,000,000.01.
Thanks and I look forward to doing business with you!
Charem
Well-Known Member
Those who say that their horse goes on the bit without any contact/washing line reins surely your horse isn't 'on the bit' (god i hate that phrase!). You need a contact to have your horse connected and your hands need to be still otherwise the mouth can't be either. I hate all that wiggling fidgeting stuff some instructors seem to teach, the horse can never take a contact if their isn't a consistent one there!
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
Ditto
think contact is one of the most misunderstood concepts of riding.For me there must be a bit and there must be some rein tension for there to be true engagement and connection but if I wiggled, yanked or otherwise grabbed at CS's face, I'd be smeared along the ménage fence!!!