Misbehaving foal!

[carolineg]

Any ideas gratefully received! My 12 week old filly has been really well behaved until now...she leads pretty well, picks up feet politely (until 2 days ago!) and is generally sweet. However I pushed her away from me in the field as she was being pushy and she turned her bum on me and kicked me! She has also started kicking out when I do her back feet. What do I do? I'm trying to be calm and consistent. Do I make sure I keep doing feet every day? What should I do when she kicks out (other than not get kicked!) When she kicks out at her mum, her mum ignores her! I really want my little girl to be a well adjusted polite horse and I want to do it right! Help please...

 

[Clodagh]

Hit her with whatever you have got to hand! Her mum should be disciplining her and if shes not you have to be Aunt Mare! If you have a trug or brush or something chuck it at her, think what a mare would do to a youngster that got ideas above its station. It needs to be an instant reaction.

 

[JillA]

Don't actually hit a foal (I don't think that is what you meant Clodagh but in case of misinterpretation). She is testing boundaries and hitting her will only make her fearful - not good for a life with people. If pushed her mum would chase her out of her space so if she kicks at you in the field make yourself big and threatening until she moves away from you. Young foals in a herd are allowed to transgress until they are 6 months old, then the herd do discipline them, swift and sharp, that is why the mare is ignoring for the moment.
Keep doing her feet - pick them up and quietly just hang on if she doesn't co-operate and struggles. She will soon learn it gets her nowhere. If you don't have the strength or technique but do have a quiet kind farrier let him do that every time he visits - they know how to do it. I always let mine do them and never had a problem with picking up feet.
I think leading and handling all over is more important as a foundation for quiet polite behaviour at that stage, and I began the weaning process by removing them for a small feed and then taking back to mum - you can gradually extend that until she is happy on her own for a few minutes.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Don't actually hit a foal (I don't think that is what you meant Clodagh but in case of misinterpretation). She is testing boundaries and hitting her will only make her fearful - not good for a life with people. If pushed her mum would chase her out of her space so if she kicks at you in the field make yourself big and threatening until she moves away from you. Young foals in a herd are allowed to transgress until they are 6 months old, then the herd do discipline them, swift and sharp, that is why the mare is ignoring for the moment.
Keep doing her feet - pick them up and quietly just hang on if she doesn't co-operate and struggles. She will soon learn it gets her nowhere. If you don't have the strength or technique but do have a quiet kind farrier let him do that every time he visits - they know how to do it. I always let mine do them and never had a problem with picking up feet.
I think leading and handling all over is more important as a foundation for quiet polite behaviour at that stage, and I began the weaning process by removing them for a small feed and then taking back to mum - you can gradually extend that until she is happy on her own for a few minutes.

Wise advice especially the feet. I had the same problem with Alice, she had a boxy front foot and needed remedial/physio attention from 4 weeks of age. She objected and my farrier advised I just hang on until she gave over. I found that difficult, even at such a young age they are strong, so my farrier dealt with her and within minutes she gave up on all four limbs. She soon became very biddable with her feet and remains that way to date, she is 2 now. It is a crucial lesson and best left to a knowledgeable farrier if you are really struggling.

 

[Brightbay]

"Young foals in a herd are allowed to transgress until they are 6 months old," - so the horses allow foals to be foals, but we need to hit or chase them?

It is better - in terms of your long term relationship with the foal, and with their long term opinion of humans - to think about how you want them to behave, and to teach them, than it is to punish them for responding to something they don't like when you've never actually taught them how you want them to respond (and when their dam also hasn't taught this).

If, of course, you have been through a process of teaching "keep a safe distance, do not crowd me, do not barge" in a low key way that has not bothered the foal and the foal chooses to ignore this, then by all means growl a bit and give them a "mare stare"

It is possible to train very young foals without wrestling with them or chasing them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye0mVSZ_u2U&feature=youtu.be

 

[GinnieRedwings]

Brightbay, I had seen that video before as its been doing the rounds on fb for a while. Whilst it is lovely and essentially this girl is doing the all the right things right, there are several problems with the video itself.

I have to add here that I am talking from the viewpoint of someone who routinely uses clicker training and learning theory with all the horses I train, the majority are youngsters and I also occasionally breed sports horses.

Problem number 1 - Clicker training is a great tool, but it does require an amount of knowledgeable conditioning with horses, much more so that with dogs, and also a real understanding of how it works, especially in relation to timing (both of clicking and delivery of reward). using this video alone, people without that understanding will undoubtedly produce, not the delightfully polite foal this lady's knowledgeable use of those tools has, but a bolshy monster climbing all over them and mugging them for attention at every opportunity.

Which leads me neatly to Problem number 2 - Inevitably, at one point of the clicker training process, EVERY horse has the following thought: why should I have to work for reward when I could just take it/mug my human for it/train her to give it to me/kick/bite/barge instead? How this happens depends entirely on the horse's personality and how to deal with it so that the horse understands that will lead him nowhere, without pain or fear, requires skill, as it has the very real potential of training "loops". Example: OP picks baby's foot. Baby tries to shake her off. OP hangs on. Baby gives up. OP clicks and rewards. What has she just taught baby? That is ok to try and shake her off as long as she stops eventually - NOT that she should be picking her feet up quietly every time OP asks her to.... Which you can teach very easily using clicker training, but not that way!

Problem number 3 - where is mum? Filly is 1 month old and should not be comfortable being without mum in sight. Now I guess mum was being held behind the camera, but realistically, most of us do not have the extra pair of hands to deal with mum, who if she is even slightly foal proud will be calling baby as soon as she gets more than a few feet away. Distractions, including mum calling and/or other horses in the herd coming to see what's going on, have to be factored in.

Context and knowledge, as well as how to deal with the inevitable hiccups are MISSING from this video and I'm prepared to bet that people without that lady's skill and understanding attempting to do what she does on the basis of this video alone will run into serious trouble.

OP, my personal opinion is that if your filly is confident enough to react to being told not to climb all over you (perfectly reasonable request) by attempting to kick you, chucking something at her (preferably something clangy, so it surprises her without actually hurting her) is probably the best way to deal with it and is VERY unlikely to make her fearful of you (I would never do that with a timid foal who kicked out of fear - it is very important to read the context well when training animals). You have to plan the whole thing very carefully so you can react immediately and aim well!

Now that doesn't apply to her reaction to having her back feet picked. I agree with others here, you need to hang on until she gives up, then as soon as she stops struggling, put her foot down. Don't make a fuss of her at this point (remember to be careful not to train a "loop"). Give her at least 20 seconds to think this over. She must not be distracted at this point. She needs time and quiet to think it over. Then ask for her to pick up the foot again and repeat the process until she doesn't struggle and picks up her foot quietly. At that point, and at that point only, make a real fuss of her... the biggest scratch of her itchiest spot. And repeat the other side. You have to train each side separately and thoroughly. You might have to do it all over again the day after. But I can guarantee it will be less the next day. Keep sessions short. If it's taken you more than 15 minutes to get quiet pick up of one foot, leave the other for tomorrow.

Remain quiet, firm and consistent, BUT if you don't feel you can hang on to the foot yourself, get someone else to do it. Your filly must not be allowed to free her foot by shaking r kicking, otherwise she'll try harder next time.

Good luck. I disagree with people who say foals should not be made to be polite this young. Some mares never discipline their foals. I have one such softy and with her first foal, I kept waiting for her to sort the little monster out, and it never happened. And as she was as vicious with the rest of the herd, proper alpha mare she is, as she was lenient with her baby, we had a very bold bolshy filly on our hands, that had to be managed tightly. I decided to make sure this didn't happen with foal number 2, who is the most polite 3 year old I've ever seen (he'll finish at 17th, so I'm glad for that!). And he certainly isn't fearful of me!

Ginnie

 

[fburton]

GinnieRedwings, you make some really good points. Doesn't this all point to the simple fact that training foals requires additional skill and experience to ensure a high chances of success with no mess-ups? (Not that there are any guarantees that things won't go awry at some stage when it comes to handling horses - they almost certainly will - but a skilled handler will stand a better chance of recovering gracefully.)

It is my opinion, based on what foal experience I've had over the years, that it is possible to train good behaviour without hitting, 'wrestling' or chasing them. I don't use positive reinforcement exclusively, but recognize the value of well-timed rubs and of quiet presence, which I believe horses, and especially foals, find comfort (and hence reward) in. I have never used clicker training with foals (only adult horses), preferring direct positive reinforcement - and to be honest haven't ever missed the additional efficacy and finesse afforded by the bridging signal when it comes to teaching foals good manners.

I don't rule out punishing unwanted behaviours too, but only using what's judged, in the spur of the moment, to be the least amount of force or vigour needed to be effective - which for foals is often pretty mild. Any action that arouses fear is obviously too much. Of course, this is easier said than done, but if handler is sensitive she can adjust her responses 'on the fly'.

OP, I think your wish to be able to pick up feet and do them every day is entirely reasonable. It's behaviour worth getting. You don't want your filly to learn that she can shake her foot free, but nor do you want to escalate into a big battle with her. The key is persistence (being quiet and firm as GR has suggested), and aiming for small victories - not being too ambitious to begin with - and building up from those, rather than attempting to impose the 'finished product' on the foal in one go. I think there has to be some give and take along the way, otherwise one does risk engaging in a potentially damaging tussle. The important thing is that you don't repeatedly reward wrong behaviours and keep things moving in the right direction. End on a good note. Practice makes perfect, but don't overdo it - short sessions can be more effective than longer ones. Often less is more when it comes to horses. I would say that even a 10 minute session can frazzle a foal's mind.

I wouldn't read too much into the fact that her mum ignores her foal's kicking. How YOU act towards your filly is what you can control and what will make the difference in the end.

 

[elijahasgal]

"Young foals in a herd are allowed to transgress until they are 6 months old," - so the horses allow foals to be foals, but we need to hit or chase them?


What a load of Tosh

My foals fun in a mixed herd, and believe me they get disciplined both by myself and the herd
Everything I do with my foals is aimed for the future of that horse, but i start with a simple one, they get fussed, but not when their bums are presented, it is amazing how quickly a foal will learn to stand with his side presented for scratches, rather than bums.
I was in the wrong place the other day when my little lad thought he would nip my very very patient old lad, who waved a leg hard at him, it wouldnt have crippled him, but would have disciplined him.
If they get too boisterous and pushy, the mares refuse attention. Dams nip the foals when they get too rough suckling, not always with warning
I saw a mare nip a foal less than 12 hours old for standing in a poo in the field.
So sorry it annoys me when people say that foals are not disciplined by mares. They do discipline and teach them. As should we, nicely, but also remember that they are foals, and dont do too much with them

 

[fburton]

"Young foals in a herd are allowed to transgress until they are 6 months old," - so the horses allow foals to be foals, but we need to hit or chase them?

What a load of Tosh

I agree there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to herd behaviour, because horses are individuals and how they are kept varies. You'll find exceptions to the "rules" everywhere you look. So I find it's not useful to be dogmatic about how we should handle different situations, but rather retain flexibility while following general principles.

So I don't think it's useful to say something like "a horse would never allow another horse to do x and would immediately reprimand them for that, so we should do that too". I prefer to decide for myself the behaviours I want and those I don't want that go into my personal ideal or standard for "good manners". For me, training is about continually encouraging the wanted behaviours and discouraging the unwanted behaviours, rather than blindly following a set of pre-ordained rules. That means being adaptable and treating each horse as an individual. This process starts from our very first contact with a foal.

Foals are amazingly quick to learn, and there's no reason why we shouldn't teach them 'nicely' using measured actions from the get go, and reprimand / correct / discourage (take your pick) any behaviour that you consider to be a problem, or likely to develop into a problem as the foal gets older. This can be achieved without hitting, chasing or wrestling.

When it comes to behaviours that aren't taught by the dam or other herd members - such as allowing feet to be handled - we can't take our lead from watching what horses do, whether we wish to or not. In these cases we must rely on our own methods.

OP - good luck with your foal. I do think kicking at people in general needs to be nipped in the bud, but this shouldn't require a spectacular kerfuffle or anything that makes the foal fearful. However, in the specific case of kicking when picking up feet, the suggestion of getting someone who has the experience to do this for you is the best advice imo. Then you can back to doing her feet every day as before.

 

[fburton]

It is possible to train very young foals without wrestling with them or chasing them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye0mVSZ_u2U&feature=youtu.be

Nice video, btw (only just watched it) - shows what's possible using rubs as reward. I especially like the line "Teach them as though they are horse-sized".

The foal does kick out towards the person at 6:04, but I would consider this unremarkable and quite different from a direct kick attempt in response to something the person did.

Problem number 3 - where is mum? Filly is 1 month old and should not be comfortable being without mum in sight. Now I guess mum was being held behind the camera, but realistically, most of us do not have the extra pair of hands to deal with mum, who if she is even slightly foal proud will be calling baby as soon as she gets more than a few feet away. Distractions, including mum calling and/or other horses in the herd coming to see what's going on, have to be factored in.

I assume the mare was out of shot but in sight of the foal. Maybe the mare was being held, maybe not. All I can say is I've done useful work by myself with foals at comparable distance from the dam, and within weeks rather than months of birth (though this obviously depends on how 'clingy' the foal and/or foal-proud mum is), in a field with other mares and foals - so it is doable.

 

[carolineg]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I will definitely be prepared for next time! Filly is v confident and I agree with those who said I need to discipline (carefully) . Unfortunately I have to go through her field to get to the muckheap and don't like the way she wants to play as I try to walk wheelbarrows through! Mum is still v laid back with her and tolerates her trying to mount her. We are persevering with the picking up of feet and things are improving. She is not clingy to mum and socialises with the other ponies over the fence.