Missold a horse advice please

[Jessie234]

Hello all,

Looking for some advice as I’m sure many have been in this situation.
I’ve bought a horse sold as a confidence giver, all rounder type. Was great in the viewing.
First time getting on he bucked me straight off and I couldn’t get back on. Old owners came up to ride him but I noticed a long period of lunging and leaning over him prior to mounting although apparently had never bronked anyone off before. He was fine that day after this and took him a gentle hack the next day. After this I have tried to get on him multiple times and even pressing with my hand on saddle or stirrup is too much for him and he goes up and kicks out and bites. I cannot mount the horse. Friend tried and professional instructor told me not to get on him. Vets thinking ulcers or possibly needing Xrays and physio definitely thinks ulcers but can’t say anything else. Old owner is refusing to take him back although have told her I want to return him within the 14 days. Says she’ll take him back and not refund him and sell him for me but will not refund me at all.
What would yous do? Going to try and speak to a solicitor tomorrow. This is a small time dealer posing as a private seller but can clearly see she isn’t.

 

[AdorableAlice]

What a difficult situation you have. How was the horse during the vetting and did you take blood.

 

[Starzaan]

What was shown when you had him vetted and have you had the bloods run that were taken at the time of vetting?

 

[AmyMay]

Sounds like a difficult situation. You definitely need a solicitor by the sounds of it.

 

[BatHorse]

It definitely sounds like this horse is in pain somewhere. If bloods were taken at the vetting you should have them run to see if there were any painkillers in his system. I would try your hardest to return him, if they are a dealer you should be covered by the sale of good act.

 

[shortstuff99]

If she is a dealer then she will come under the sales of goods act and a good lawyer should be able to advise you.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Did you buy the tack with the horse? Or have you bought new tack? If you bought it with him, are you sure it's the same saddle?

 

[Jessie234]

Yes I have the tack on loan which is going back. I didn’t vet him (please don’t tell me off I feel stupid enough as is). She’s pretending to be a private seller but have got proof that’s she’s sold a lot of horses.

 

[AdorableAlice]

How is your receipt worded ?

 

[Shay]

It is possible to prove that a private seller is acting as a dealer. But it is also possible for a private individual to simply have a number of horses for sale. There is no statutory defanition of a seller - the closest that we can come is someone who buys and sells horses in the course of a buisness. If they are not running a buisness - perhaps becuase it is an informal rescue type operation, they won't be a dealer.

Getting legal advice is great. You might be able to establish that they are legally a dealer. With the delays in court hearings which were happening anyway, massively compounded by covid, I would expect depending on area your case might come to the first instance court in something like 12 - 18 months. Perhaps longer. And of course they may appeal. The lead case in who is a dealer and who isn't took 8 years. You may recover legal costs - you may not.

What are you going to do with the horse in the meantime?

Have you approached them to take the horse back? Have you spoken to trading standards?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this - which will be sorted out through a court at significant cost and over a number of years - you have a living breathing animal in your care now. You have to decide what to do.

That will, to a degree, be advised by the lawyer. You might need one or more formal professional assessments that the horse is unrideable. You may then be able to PTS and hope that a court will agree. You absolutely can't sell on. If the previous owner will not take him back (and they may well not if they had an inkling he would be difficult sale) then you have a lot of vets bills and a lot of livery ahead of you.

IMO - you best bet is to try to zvengali them into taking the horse back. Against the threat of legal action, legal costs, trading standards etc. They may well stand firm - if they are in fact a dodgy dealer they will have faced this before and know how reluctant owners are to pursue this through the courts. And how few can afford the extensive investigations, livery bills etc before the animal can finally be destroyed.

I am really sorry - and more sorry for the horse. Whatever the legality of it - he is your problem now. Your first step has to be to get a full vet workup and see what you are dealing with. Then, with legal support, you can weigh the costs of what your next actions will be.

This isn't, I'm afraid, going to be happy.

 

[Michen]

Send a letter before action. May be enough to spur her in to action. If not, get two professionals to assess the horses ASAP and file a small claims court procedure. In the mean time turn the horse away.

 

[Shay]

In the mean time turn the horse away

You need speciliast legal advice on that. It could be argued that in changing the horse's workload you adversely affected behaviour and it could impact your ability to bring a claim if you decide to do so.

Actually on that topic - keep anything you were told about what he is fed, how he is worked etc. And perhaps get early stage statements from staff at your livery yard. A common defence to these challenegs is that the new owner did not adjust the feed to workload correctly. Tbh it sounds like more than that - but that is an avenue of challenge.

The comment about two independant professional assesments by vets who understand this is for the purposes of a legal claim so they may have to provide expert witness evidence is spot on. You may have to have one that you choose and one that they choose. Go with what your lawyer suggests.

 

[Michen]

You need speciliast legal advice on that. It could be argued that in changing the horse's workload you adversely affected behaviour and it could impact your ability to bring a claim if you decide to do so.

Actually on that topic - keep anything you were told about what he is fed, how he is worked etc. And perhaps get early stage statements from staff at your livery yard. A common defence to these challenegs is that the new owner did not adjust the feed to workload correctly. Tbh it sounds like more than that - but that is an avenue of challenge.

The comment about two independant professional assesments by vets who understand this is for the purposes of a legal claim so they may have to provide expert witness evidence is spot on. You may have to have one that you choose and one that they choose. Go with what your lawyer suggests.

Well given they can't mount the horse, what else are they supposed to do other than turn away...

 

[Merry neddy man]

Someone who sells 5 or 6 cars a year is classed as a dealer and liable to pay tax on profits, a similar system may apply with horses, if you are a BHS gold member ring their legal dept. It's free and ask for advice, not exactly safe but how does he behave if sat on bareback, give us all a bit more info on him, age how long backed number of owners on passport amount of work he gets food given turnout etc.

 

[Jessie234]

He’s 10, I wouldn’t be able to get on him bareback and wouldn’t ask anyone else to either to be honest. He gets a scoop of chaff with balancer in per day and his weight has been consistent since he arrived so have managed that. I could keep lunging him so he remains fit as he is great on the lunge. I’ve got some legal cover with my insurance so I’m going to give that a try tomorrow. Failing possibly offer back but for less money as I’m just at a loss at the moment. Of course he will remain well looked after while he’s with me but cannot keep him indefinitely or 18 months for small claims court ?

 

[[131452]]

Small claims court only takes a few months. That's the process anyway , getting money out of them might take a lot longer.

 

[PeterNatt]

If you are a BHS Gold member then you can get free legal advice.

Firstly keep copies of the original adverts, conversations you had with the seller or their agent and also a copy of the receipt.

If a private sale then you need copies of the original adverts to demonstrate what was stated in the advert as this will help to demonstrate the difference to what what characteristics the horse had in practice.

If they were a dealer then if the horse was mis-sold then they are obliged to give you a full refund.

To demonstrate they are a dealer get copies of as many adverts for horses that they have sold/are selling.

As a customer you enter into a contract with a retailer when you buy a product.
Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (if entered into or after 1 October 2015) or the Sales of Goods Act 1979 (if entered before then) the retailer of the product has to ensure it is of satisfactory quality at the time of sale.
This means it should be fit for its purpose, free from minor defects, safe and durable.
As a result of this, the retailer is in breach of the contract and under the 2015 Act the purchaser is entitled to a repair or replacement.
The retailer should do this within a reasonable amount of time, without causing any significant inconvenience and it should cover all the associated costs.
One can enforce this right for up to six years from the date of the breach, regardless of whether you have a warranty.
It is also an offence to give consumers misleading information about their legal rights.
Covers all goods including horses, livery yards, riding lessons and horsebox repairs.
Buyers have the right to a 30 day refund for faulty, not as described (always keep advert) or not fit for purpose goods bought from a business such as dealers.
Even after 30 days have passed the buyer can still be entitled to a refund - full if under 6 months, or partial if over 6 months but must allow the trader to repair or replace the item first.

Get advice from a specialist Equine Solicitors and below is a list:
Deborah Hargreaves
Edmondson Hall Solicitors and Sports Lawyers
25 Exeter Road
Newmarket
Suffolk
CB8 8AR
Tel: 01638 560556
Tel: 01638 564483
E: solicitors@edmondsonhall.com
E: ah@edmondsonhall.com
www.edmondsonhall.com/page/1r6ef/Home/partner.html

Actons
Tel: 0115 91002200 Caroline Bowler

Mark Carter
White Bowker Solicitors
Tel: 01962 844440
www.wandb.co.uk
mark.carter@wandb.co.uk

Helen Niebuhr
Darbys Solicitors
52 New Inn Hall Street
Oxford
OX1 2QD
Tel: 01865 811 7000
01865 811712
Fax: 01865 811 777

www.equine-law.net
E: equine@darbys.co.uk

Jaqcui Fulton Equine Law
Tel: 0121 308 5915
jf@equinelawuk.co.uk
www.equinelawuk.co.uk

Hannah Campbell (Specialise in compensation cases)
Tel: 01446 794196 (Specialises in traffic accidents involving horses)
www.horsesolicitor.co.uk
info@horse solicitor

Hanna Campbell
Horse Solicitors

Elizabeth Simpson Senior Solicitor at law firm Andrew M Jackson
Tel: 01482 325242
www.andrewjackson.co.uk
enquiries@andrewjackson.co.uk

David Forbes or Belinda Walkinshaw
Pickworths Solicitors
6 Victoria Street
St Albans
Hertfordshire
AL1 3JB
01727 844511

Mark de-villamar Roberts
Langleys Solicitors Equine Law Group
Tel: 01904 683051
E: mark.Roberts@langleys.com
www.equinelawyers.co.uk

Elizabeth Simpson
Senior Solicitor
Andrew Jackson
Yorkshire
Tel: 01482 325242
www.andrewjackson.co.uk

Richmond Solicitors
13-15 High Street
Keynsham
Bristol
BS31 1DP
Tel: 0117 986 9555
Fax: 0117 986 8680
enquiries@richmonssolicitorsco.uk

Jacqui Fulton
Giselle Robinson Solicitors

Inderjit Gill
Jacksons Specialist Equine Solicitor

Knights Solicitors
Tunbridge Wells
Tel: 01892 537311
www.knights-solicitors.co.uk
Senior partner very good on equine matters

Horse Solicitor
Tel: 01446 794 196
info@horsesolicitor.co.uk
www.horsesolicitor.com

www.laytons.com

Mary Ann Reay Charles or Chris Shaw
Shaw and Co Solicitors
Equine Law Specialists
Tel: 0800 019 1248
info@shawandco.com
www.shawandco.com

Arnold Thomson
205 Watling Street West
Towcester
Northants
NN12 6BX
Tel: 01327 350266
www.arnoldthomson.com
enquiries@arnoldthomson.com

Tozers www.tozers.co.uk

 

[paddy555]

when the old owner came to ride him why allow a period for them to lunge and lean over? why not say here is the horse "get on" if he is easily rideable? did they explain why all this performance was needed?
also the following day he was fine but then went back to his old ways? how? did they give him something to calm/relieve pain/sedate him? which then wore off?

have a look on FB on the dodgy dealers site. You may find the dealer and if not if you post someone may have heard of them/ have already gone through all this and may know how to provoke them into action.

presumably you have the passport, how long did they own him, is there a previous owner? If so try and get hold of them and try and get some history, that may explain what is going wrong.

 

[Jessie234]

Yes no idea why there was such a fuss over leaning over. My gut is saying they knew something was up.
I can easily prove they are dealers thankfully although they are denying it I’ve got a lot of proof of this.
Only one owner before them in Ireland so can’t contact really.
Thanks everyone, I’ll try a solicitor. I know I’m in the right here I’m just worried about how long it’ll take and how much it’ll cost and also the affect that it’s going to have on me personally too.

 

[ester]

Even if private sale the horse has to be as described by them (the diff with dealers is that it has to be fit for purpose) so do you still have copies of the advert/communcations.
I would then be sending a legalese letter (post legal advice) to them.

 

[Jessie234]

I have the communications. I sent them my ad which is of course a rideable horse with all the info and they said they have one that would suit perfectly, that the other two for sale are out my my price range (proving being a dealer right there!) it’s not even as if it’s slightly off you know maybe I buy a horse thinking it will do a course of 1m but is only clearing 90! I genuinely cannot even mount the thing! ?

 

[Wishfilly]

Selling three horses at once doesn't in itself make the seller a dealer. If that's your "proof" then unfortunately I think it will be difficult to prove.

However, even if you can't prove they are a dealer, you do have some rights. I agree with the other posters that you should get legal advice, ideally from a specialist, and take things from there. Hopefully some initial action will persuade them to take the horse back and refund you.

I don't suppose you have any film of them when they came to visit? Could you ask them to visit again?

 

[S.AAnderson]

This is a tough situation! Sometimes the threat of legal action is enough to make a private seller change their tune, so that would be my first plan of action.

I presume (based off what you've said) you aren't keen to spend more money with the vet and potentially treat the suspected ulcers, in the hope that he comes good for you?

 

[Red-1]

Some tack came on loan with the horse, are you sure it fits?

To be fair, if I sold a horse which then bucked someone off as soon as their backside hit the saddle, I too would lunge and lean before leaping into the saddle! Besides, a lunge and lean would not negate a serious problem, plus the horse was fine the next day too.

I would send to a proper pro. As in someone who professionally starts a number of horses. They will be able to assess tack, decide if a vet is required, etc. You have 30 days to return.

I think you will find returning harder than you think, however a tip I learned was to get the actual small claims court papers, fill them in but don't register them. This much is free. Then post a photocopy 'signed for' so they can see that you are serious abut getting your money back.

While you are doing this, the pro will either have sorted the problem or will give you further evidence that the horse is not suitable.

 

[MiniMilton]

It can be very easy to contact a previous owner even if in Ireland. If a previous owner can confirm the horse was problematic then this could make things much easier for you. Do you have name and address of previous owner on passport?

Two horses that I've sold that have ended up in the UK I have recieved a letter from a current owner looking for history (out of curiosity rather that there being a problem!) and I've always been happy to give them as much info as I can.

There is Facebook groups for "do you recognise my horse" sort of thing specifically. You could also put that up leaving out the problematic part....

 

[Ownedby4horses]

I also dont see an issue with lunging and leaning over if i came to see a horse I knew that had bucked off its orevious owner, its just a sensible move.

Im afraid having three horses up for sale, doesnt prove they're a dealer. You need legal advice, present them with all the hard evidence.

Has the vet been out to see the horse? Regardless of what you are planning on doing eith the horse, it is currently under your ownership and you have a duty of care, get it vet checked and then you will know what you are dealing with and if something is found, then it gives you more evidence to give to your legal bods.

Im afraid its a lesson learnt, always get vetted unless you are willing to take the risk/are experienced enough and have the money to deal with the issues.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Selling three horses at once doesn't in itself make the seller a dealer. If that's your "proof" then unfortunately I think it will be difficult to prove.

However, even if you can't prove they are a dealer, you do have some rights. I agree with the other posters that you should get legal advice, ideally from a specialist, and take things from there. Hopefully some initial action will persuade them to take the horse back and refund you.

I don't suppose you have any film of them when they came to visit? Could you ask them to visit again?

I suppose every case is different - but the last time I acted as 'expert witness' in a case against a dealer, it was more than enough - 3 horses sold in one year. It made me aware that - as a breeder - the Courts would see me as a 'dealer'. But then, I have always taken back horses I sold, even after 6 months when the reason ws obviously a management 'fault' of the new owner.

There are two very likely reasons for this horse's change in behaviour IF it hadn't 'behaved' for the dealer: one is a back problem, exacerbated by an ill-fitting saddle, and the 2nd is hind gut ulcers. Both were VERY obvious in 2 mares I took back - one after 6 months - the other after 2 years! In both cases they were quite easily cured, and then sold to intelligent buyers!

But in this horse's case, I would think it is more likely to be bad memories - of being ridden - and of the consequences of objecting to the dealer. FAR harder to prove, or to cure. In fact, I think it would be close to impossible to prove in court (unless you were lucky enough to get a Judge who was an experienced horse-person. TBH, the only advice I can give you is to arrange for the dealer to take it back, for a reduced price. VERY annoying, I know, but the alternatives would add to your costs - and your worry and distress.

The onlyother possibility would be to send him to a VERY good trainer for 2-3 weeks - and see what happens. It is possible that a move to a new stables MIGHT over-ride the problems he has. But of course that wouldn't help when/if he came home.

 

[Widgeon]

Send a letter before action. May be enough to spur her in to action. If not, get two professionals to assess the horses ASAP and file a small claims court procedure. In the mean time turn the horse away.

Just from my experience - this is probably what I would do too; phone trading standards and have a look on their website for a template letter before action. Lawyers can cost an absolute fortune and if you didn't vet this horse I would assume you didn't pay more than a few thousand for him? So getting them involved may not be cost effective. The letter before action doesn't tie you into anything and if you think you may proceed with this, you need to send it ASAP.

You can send the letter before action yourself, although it will have more fear-factor if sent by a lawyer - but again, this is expensive. So get some lawyers' quotes to send this letter, see if it could be cost effective, and if not, do it yourself. See if that gets you anywhere. Look up the small claims court procedure on the Gvt website; there's lots of information there and if both you and the seller are in England, everything can be done online, and it's relatively cheap. Red-1's suggestion of filling out the papers and sending a copy to the seller, but not actually filing the claim, is a clever one.

I would also say that spending the money on getting a couple of professional assessments of the horse would be worth it. Maybe a vet and a professional rider / instructor with plenty of letters after their name and a competition record - if this kind of thing goes to court, the person ruling on it is likely to be non-horsey so you need to be able to show to an outsider, so to speak, that these professionals are worth listening to.

The other thing to bear in mind is that if it does go to court, you still have to keep the horse until your case comes up - I have no idea what the backlog due to Covid will be. I believe you can claim those expenses, but it's a risk, as if for whatever reason you don't win, you've lost even more money.

Sorry to hear you're in this situation. Get on the Gvt website, familiarize yourself with the small claims procedure, get the horse formally assessed by a couple of well chosen professionals, and get some lawyers' quotes (find specialist equine lawyers) before deciding how far you want to, and can afford to, push this. If all else fails then some professional schooling for the horse and a full vet / tack / teeth etc assessment would be how I'd go. God luck.

 

[ycbm]

This was also the judgement in a case a friend of mine took, JG. The fact that the woman could be proved to have sold 3 horses in a year classified her as a dealer.
.

 

[Widgeon]

But in this horse's case, I would think it is more likely to be bad memories - of being ridden - and of the consequences of objecting to the dealer. FAR harder to prove, or to cure. In fact, I think it would be close to impossible to prove in court (unless you were lucky enough to get a Judge who was an experienced horse-person. TBH, the only advice I can give you is to arrange for the dealer to take it back, for a reduced price. VERY annoying, I know, but the alternatives would add to your costs - and your worry and distress. .

Unfortunately realistically this is probably true. You need to get rid of the horse with the least financial damage to yourself, and if the dealer absolutely refuses to take it back, even when threatened with small claims etc., you may have to negotiate if you can.