Mmm. Farrier article in BHS Mag

Goldenstar said:
Most [wild] horses where dead by seven

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Where does this come from Goldenstar, I am thinking about Mongolian ponies who presumable are not ridden till they are mature, so they would be expected to last a bit longer than age seven?
The Camargue Horses are semi wild, do they have short lives?
PS I love the calm quietness of the barefoot on road horse, plus security and I know the feet are not going to be damaged by shoes in the long term, ie a working lifetime can 10 to 20 years nowadays.
 
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My mare is barefoot at my farrier's recommendation because she can't grip well enough with shoes one (tried road nails and studs before I had the shoes off) - without shoes she grips perfectly on all surfaces; so much safer.
 
OldNag said:
The new BHS mag has an article by a farrier in which he states...

"There's a misconception that ... you can't ride a horse that hasn't got shoes on... That's not true. Obviously, your performance isn't as good as it could be because you haven't got the grip and some horses are uncomfortable without shoes so you have to look at your type of foot, but in most cases there's nothing wrong with leaving shoes off if you're not doing very much with your horse."

Really? I can only presume he doesn't have many barefoot customers.

<Goes to bash head against wall>
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I think it was quite brave of said farrier to go in to print on this subject, he should know it is emotive. Fortunately, or unfortunately it also exposes the lack of understanding of this farrier, and many others.
It is a good thing to get this out in the open, I hope the BHS take their heads out of the sand one day and accept that appropriate management is the key to good health and longevity. They are stuck in the 1890's in some respects.
 
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Bestdogdash said:
Is there much jumping on endurance riding ? Genuine question - it isnt a sport that I follow or know much about.

I do know that my horses couldn't get round a muddy 2, 3 or 4* event without shoes and a set of appropriate studs, and nor would we ask them.
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Have to agree with you on this one too! I wouldn't dream of attempting to go across country, at speed jumping solid obstacles, without the benefit of studs. That's just me though, I'm sure there are plenty of people who compete in XC and show jumping on grass, at a high level without shoes successfully, yes? I would love love love to be able to have mine barefoot it would save me a small fortune, but I do a lot of road work and fieldwork, and just couldn't contemplate going without. In the wild, horses cope very well barefoot, but isn't that because firstly, they don't have the weight of a rider and secondly, because they have the freedom to choose the type of terrain they travel over?? I once tried my mare without back shoes and she was crippled within a week?
 
Or perhaps he could be trying to promoteand protect the future of farriery and discourage people from using unqualified barefoot trimmers, sorry "Equine Podiatrists", and then wondering why their horse has gone lame
 
chrisritch said:
Or perhaps he could be trying to promoteand protect the future of farriery and discourage people from using unqualified barefoot trimmers, sorry "Equine Podiatrists", and then wondering why their horse has gone lame
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It's a difficult argument when their are qualified farriers just as capable of doing the same though. To research and take ownership of who they are using and not assume they know best would be good though ;).
 
chocolategirl said:
Have to agree with you on this one too! I wouldn't dream of attempting to go across country, at speed jumping solid obstacles, without the benefit of studs. That's just me though, I'm sure there are plenty of people who compete in XC and show jumping on grass, at a high level without shoes successfully, yes? I would love love love to be able to have mine barefoot it would save me a small fortune, but I do a lot of road work and fieldwork, and just couldn't contemplate going without. In the wild, horses cope very well barefoot, but isn't that because firstly, they don't have the weight of a rider and secondly, because they have the freedom to choose the type of terrain they travel over?? I once tried my mare without back shoes and she was crippled within a week?
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Enough to hunt and jump at speed without shoes/studs just fine, there was a certain amount of jealousy about me not having to worry about lost shoes when I went out when it was very wet before Christmas. I don't think roadwork or fieldwork necessarily has to be a problem either, roadwork is pretty good for unshod feet. If your mare was crippled within a week were you not worried there might be something else going on/she had poor feet that couldn't cope? - most of those that have done it would check diet and exercise quantity in the first instance, you can't expect them to just carry on as normal straight away although some will.
 
Mine do really well, the more work on the fields and roads the better the feet look.
one had v flat feet at first and slipped doing dr on grass so I had her shod again in the summer, but since I changed her diet her feet are not flat anymore....so she does fine.
We only do jumping for fun so im not doing fast turns etc, so cant comment on that.
 
ester said:
Enough to hunt and jump at speed without shoes/studs just fine, there was a certain amount of jealousy about me not having to worry about lost shoes when I went out when it was very wet before Christmas. I don't think roadwork or fieldwork necessarily has to be a problem either, roadwork is pretty good for unshod feet. If your mare was crippled within a week were you not worried there might be something else going on/she had poor feet that couldn't cope? - most of those that have done it would check diet and exercise quantity in the first instance, you can't expect them to just carry on as normal straight away although some will.
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No, it was 5 years ago and (touches wood) she has had a very successful competition life so far, albeit with shoes on, so I doubt there is anything 'wrong' with her. She is a coloured horse with stripey feet, they never crack or chip and my farrier says she has super feet. The track from our farm though is long and stony, so I didn't want to persevere with no shoes in case it caused bruising that's all.
 
Bonkers2 said:
Where does this come from Goldenstar, I am thinking about Mongolian ponies who presumable are not ridden till they are mature, so they would be expected to last a bit longer than age seven?
The Camargue Horses are semi wild, do they have short lives?
PS I love the calm quietness of the barefoot on road horse, plus security and I know the feet are not going to be damaged by shoes in the long term, ie a working lifetime can 10 to 20 years nowadays.
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If my memory serves me right it was research done on teeth from various places on the steppe .
Camargue horses are not predated so you cannot compare them to wild horses there are not really any proper wild horses living and coping with the predators anymore .
 
There wasn't much wild about the Camargue horses I saw when I lived in that area.

I think some horses are better barefoot, others aren't. Bare footers cope better in some conditions, shod horses in others. It's very rocky, stony bridle ways around here and not many cope well barefoot. I have tried it with a couple of mine. I wanted studs for XC too.
 
Interesting :) I'm currently working with my first BF horse, he's a young WB who came unshod, so I kept him like that! Even before hand, I'd done extensive research into BF, so was keen to leave him. I've evented to 2*, and if you'd asked me a few years ago, I would have said that I wouldn't have a horse in work unless it was shod! However, I honestly do believe, that if a horse is lame without shoes, there is a definite reason why, you just need to find it!

I have a friend who's horse is a much flashier mover than mine, however it's spoiled (IMO!) by the distinct toe landing. There is heaps of arena sand kicked up every time this horse puts a foot down. With the heel first landing of my horse, he's got a much 'lighter' looking movement, despite not being as big. When we hack in the mud/wet roads, my horse ploughs on without a hitch. I can work him in wet fields without any slipping, compared to a shod horse without stud!

I wish I knew back when I had my once in a lifetime horse, what I know now :( He was retired with navicular issues quite early in his career. I was paying a fortune for a master farrier, thinking I was doing the right thing! But know I can pick the long toe, under-run heels, bull-nosing and contracted heel which no doubt lead to his navicular syndrome. If I was eventing now, I do believe I would need shoes and studs during the season, but I would definitely be leaving big periods of time where the horse would be unshod, to return his hoof to better health. That said, I know several people who eventer to 2* and 1* level on un-shod horses (one of them a whopping 17.3hh monster!) so it can be done!! There some pretty nifty notches you can trim into the wall (if you leave it a little longer on purpose) to help with turning. But then, horses for courses. I'll manage mine how I believe is best, just as other people can chose their own methods.
 
Lyle said:
Interesting :) I'm currently working with my first BF horse, he's a young WB who came unshod, so I kept him like that! Even before hand, I'd done extensive research into BF, so was keen to leave him. I've evented to 2*, and if you'd asked me a few years ago, I would have said that I wouldn't have a horse in work unless it was shod! However, I honestly do believe, that if a horse is lame without shoes, there is a definite reason why, you just need to find it!

I have a friend who's horse is a much flashier mover than mine, however it's spoiled (IMO!) by the distinct toe landing. There is heaps of arena sand kicked up every time this horse puts a foot down. With the heel first landing of my horse, he's got a much 'lighter' looking movement, despite not being as big. When we hack in the mud/wet roads, my horse ploughs on without a hitch. I can work him in wet fields without any slipping, compared to a shod horse without stud!

I wish I knew back when I had my once in a lifetime horse, what I know now :( He was retired with navicular issues quite early in his career. I was paying a fortune for a master farrier, thinking I was doing the right thing! But know I can pick the long toe, under-run heels, bull-nosing and contracted heel which no doubt lead to his navicular syndrome. If I was eventing now, I do believe I would need shoes and studs during the season, but I would definitely be leaving big periods of time where the horse would be unshod, to return his hoof to better health. That said, I know several people who eventer to 2* and 1* level on un-shod horses (one of them a whopping 17.3hh monster!) so it can be done!! There some pretty nifty notches you can trim into the wall (if you leave it a little longer on purpose) to help with turning. But then, horses for courses. I'll manage mine how I believe is best, just as other people can chose their own methods.
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Many of us have been this journey .
I regret the ones I could have helped better before my BF journey started .I still shoe my horses when I feel the need but they work part of every year unshod .
 
Goldenstar said:
Wild horses did not carry people about ,they adjusted their movement to need if they eaten enough they rested if an area had abundant food they ate moved little then moved on searching for more .if their feet got sore they will have restricted themselves as much as they could .
If their feet where poor they died early , if they had abbceses they got caught when the herd was being predated and got eaten .
Most horses where dead by seven
Its a completely pointless comparison .
I do my horses both ways they spend time shod and unshod , this what I find
Wet grass , shod best no doubt .
Roads,no difference
Snow unshod much much the best .
Jumping shoes and studs make a significant improvement in performance on grass on surfaces no difference but shoes best when going fast .
Dressage I prefer the feel of them unshod riding an unshod horse on the flat is a great feeling .
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Agree with this. I have had both shod and unshod. Much better grip when shod on grass / tight turns / at speed (my unshod mare slipped right over with me on her when she had a whoopee buck when out galloping). Unshod much better on roads - more grip//less concussion but more susceptible to bruising when roads are gritty - my mare never did adjust and hoof boots just weren't cutting it (pulled off in mud and rubbed)
Buts that's just my experience... I personally now wouldn't let my daughter charge around SJ or XC on an unshod pony as seen too many slip over when barefoot (undoubtedly lack of balance/control etc don't help but hey that's what it's like when you are learning...)
 
So, basically it seems the general consensus is if you want to gallop around a hairpin bend and on wet grass, one may need shoes... otherwise, it's fine :)
 
tallyho! said:
So, basically it seems the general consensus is if you want to gallop around a hairpin bend and on wet grass, one may need shoes... otherwise, it's fine :)
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and then I wonder what you might be doing to their legs. Thought slightly triggered by only have serious rugby injuries once I upgraded my boots to having serious studs.
 
chrisritch said:
Or perhaps he could be trying to promoteand protect the future of farriery and discourage people from using unqualified barefoot trimmers, sorry "Equine Podiatrists", and then wondering why their horse has gone lame
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I used a farrier to balance and tidy hooves, if he cant do this without shoes he wont be a good farrier anyway. Only problem as that one of them trimmed a bit too hard and I had to give him a day or two to "recover". As long as horse is normal, is fed appropriately, and is in regular work most will self trim.

Unqualified as defined by the Farriers Registration Council? A council that allows farriers who have had convictions for abuse to continue to practice their trade? Sry, lost all credibility at that point.

I would rather use a farrier than a trimmer, but not one who tells me such rubbish!
 
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Amicus said:
and then I wonder what you might be doing to their legs. Thought slightly triggered by only have serious rugby injuries once I upgraded my boots to having serious studs.
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Tendon strain injuries caused by studs is cited by the FEI in their surfaces paper as a consideration.
 
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Amicus said:
and then I wonder what you might be doing to their legs. Thought slightly triggered by only have serious rugby injuries once I upgraded my boots to having serious studs.
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Yep, I had meniscal problem in knee, and I found that allowing my proprioreception to kick in automatically was the best route to recovery, ........ what is that to do with barefoot ....... everything, ..........
I never wear thick walking boots as they don't "support" the ankle" , they prevent propriorecption. I am barefoot in the house, and wear thin soled shoes outdoors. There are people who actually are barefoot, but I think they are at the extreme edge of , err sanity ;)
 
Bestdogdash said:
Yep - sorry you are right, not hunting of course. I was actually thinking XC whilst eventing.
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Ours are always shod with road studs in for hunting - and to be quite honest, the ground is so greasy on top at the moment if I could get away with hunting in XC studs I would this weekend.
 
My tongue-in-cheek post was just that, tongue-in-cheek, meant as a response to the part of the original quote which said "there's nothing wrong with leaving shoes off if you're not doing very much with your horse."

For the record, my 2 neds, one is shod, always has been, with road nails too, and one is barefoot, always has been, both are in work, and my lovely farrier keeps them both in tiptop condition foot wise.
 
that would be her then Lucinda Mc Alpine
Example
1 Hacking out with icy patches the shod horse slipped nearly fell and had to be brought back home the two unshod ones were disappointed having to come home this was on the roads the tracks were not suitable to ride on
2 Working hunter class shod pony slipped fell injured himself unshod jumped cleanly
3 unshod horse has times of excessive wear so can be footie from time to time shod horse was barefoot now shod is happier with shoes
Some horses cope well others do not so take you choice both have their points on balance I prefer barefoot but if a horse was happier in shoes it would get them
 
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