Modern pentathlon

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silu

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I am in no way an expert regarding modern penthalon but still have the images of the standard of riding and state of some of the horses during the last Olympics. I am presuming the best pentathletes were at the Olympics. I read with sadness about the death of a horse in the Asian Games. I would be interested in other's opinions as to whether riding should continue to be 1 of the diciplines in modern pentathlon, maybe another sport less specialised than riding would be more appropriate?
 
I am shocked to read that H&H news article and agree, the standard at the Olympics was appalling and there didn't seem to be much if any concerned about the welfare of the horses - some were lame some had visible injuries yet they carried on jumping them. I suspect at these games (seeing as china is soo well known for it's animal welfare!) it would have been the same if not worse. Sure there an be freak accidents but sorry, a horse crashing through a fence and breaking its neck whilst competing in a show jumping event? That is NOT a common show jumping injury! That just screams of the rider not being in control of the horse at all as far as i am concerned. I think it SHOULD be banned in some ways OR the pentathletes should be horse riders before they take up the other elements. I do like the idea, I'd love to have a go myself in some ways but how it is now just isn't working and verges on cruelty in my opinion.
 
I couldn't agree more with you both. I fail to see how watching lame/unsound horses passengered by competitors who clearly cannot ride has any place in modern sport; I haven't seen the round in which the horse was killed but as you say its not exactly a common showjumping injury. I emailed the modern pentathlon organisation after the Olympics and received a "brush-off" response about the welfare of the horses, simply saying they had all been cleared to compete by a vet... Can you imagine if one of the equestrian events allowed horses to compete that were that clearly unsound/lame/injured? It seems to be accepted because the competitors are not sj'ers but I do not understand why that makes it ok... Rant over!
 
I was disgusted by this and e-mailed www.pentathlon.org. I also looked at their SJ rules and they are a joke. They state that every horse is cleared by a vet. Yeah, right!! There were no rules regarding the use of a whip and if a horse falls, he/she can be remounted!!

This is what I said:

"Dear Sir/Madam,

I am contacting you regarding the show jumping phase of your sport. I was appalled by the conditions of the horses at the Beijing Olympics. A lot of them were lame, unfit, and had inexperienced riders on their backs who could not control them properly. They were also whipped a lot more often than what would have been allowed in pure show jumping. There was also the tragic death of a horse on the 23rd of November at the Asian Games. The horse died of a broken neck after crashing through a fence. This is indicative of dangerous and reckless riding. I have watched show jumping regularly for at least twenty-years, and have never heard of a horse dying of such an injury.

Please take the welfare of the horse into account and consider removing this phase."


What do you think?
 
No - I don't think that another sport should be substituted - it is actually the modern pentathlon that is the original modern Olympic sport! (I'll spare you the whole story unless someone asks!)

What actually needs to happen is for our competitors to become better fencers AS WELL AS other countries working on their riding.

If that sounds odd then let me explain....

Our modern pentathletes come from Pony Club. Hurrah! They are fantastic riders! And they can shoot and run and swim because that's what they've grown up being good at and competing at in Pony Club tetrathlon.

We go off and compete at Modern Pentathlon and oops......we've never taught them to fence, so it's a bit of a problem.

Other countries that compete, especially from Eastern Europe and Asia do it all the other way round. The kids are fencing at 4 rather than hunting, and they only add in riding as an afterthought as adults (a bit like us with fencing)........hence disaster, but points wise not quite as critical as being bottom of the fencing table perhaps?

Until all countries can compete at both fencing and riding on equal terms we will always have this problem IMHO.

If it becomes unacceptable to have a cricket score in riding OR in fencing, then the countries that don't traditionally ride will continue to compete because the ride score will match the fence score of the other countries.

I speak as someone whose daughter competed at national level fencing from 8 years old - only ever met one other child on the circuit who even had a pony, let alone competed. Daughter also competed Modern Penthathlon, never had a riding penalty and always won the fence and was there or thereabouts on the swim. Just couldn't really shoot reliably and hated running so never took it very far unfortunately........!
 
My daughter does PC tets and modern pentathlon and I can only agree with Bedlam. What confuses me about it all is, certainly for Pentathlon GB, everyone competing has to have a signed certificate of competence for the age level at which they are competing. The list of requirements is fairly long and goes from being able to tack up, alter stirrups and girth through to being able to work independently in the open, be able to walk a course correctly, understand the importance of riding a correct line to each jump, demonstrate competence when riding over a SJ course, on at least 2 horses of different type and temperament. This certificate, along with a fencing certificate, has to be lodged at HQ before you can compete. The contents of the requirements can be found in the 'downloads' section on the Pent GB site.

I'm just not sure what happens at an international level, or whether other countries have these certification requirements. It certainly would explain why the British competitors, on the whole, are pretty good riders.

Bedlam, our daughter dislikes the running too!
 
Sorry OP, I failed to reply to your question - here in GB, at almost every pentathlon we have competed at, there is a class run along side as a tetrathlon, which is a class without the riding. The other disciplines are run within the pentathlon, but a separate score sheet and results for those opting not to ride.

I agree, the televised Olympic riding phase did not make pretty viewing, but here in the UK they do seem to have got it pretty right I think. All horses are test ridden, all riders have a certificate of competence, on the whole everyone appears happy, a lot of competitiors have come the PC route and ride well, the competitors without a riding background are a little more wobbly. It is the international aspect which needs addressing, perhaps the other national bodies do not all have the same stringent requirements.
 
I think a lot of people under estimate the pentathlon and write off the ride phase as wrong.
In the UK for international events their is a vet on sit, the horses are inspected before the test ride and before the competition and at and time that they are required, there is also a horse ambulance on site as with all major events. what you have to realise is how brave and committed these pentathlets are, to be able to get on and jump a strange horse over a 1.20m course.
and lastly yes it was a tragic accident at the games but in every discipline we loose horses through accidents or bad riding these things happen, i know the horse broke its neck but it dose happen in the show jumping ring, not offen but it happens
 
If the GB team (particularly the men) could sort out the fencing side of things, then that would force the non-riding countries to sort their riding - as we'd be more or less unbeatable. I've not seen any of the serious male pentathletes around the top end of the GB domestic fencing circuit (and that's way below the level of our competitors'). There've been a few at a minor open at my old club, and a few at other smaller opens.

Obviously pentathlon fencing is different in that it's one hit (or maybe 1st to 2) compared with 1st to 15, BUT with decent infrastructure (or scouts around the fencing venue, with video cameras...) you can work out opponents' preferred hits in advance and counter them.

I don't think that a broken neck SJ necessarily means bad riding, although it's perfectly possible. Even the top SJers get it wrong sometimes - getting a pole between the legs at the wrong time could happen to anyone...
 
Am I remembering correctly the riding at the last Olympics - some examples:

- One guy fell off, grabbed the bridle as he went over the horses head and took it off -(could happen to anyone, the next bit is shocking) Proceeded to stare at the bridle like it was a pice of alien technology, wave it at the horse a few times, remount with the bridle still in his hand, attempt to put the bridle on by waving it in front of the horses face from its back, horse finaly lost patience and jumped out of the ring.

- A particularly painful round where a VERY honest little grey was ridden into the bottom of every single fence and jumped as best it could before finaly being ridden right into (as in on top of the bottom pole) of a full height upright, rocked back and tried to jump it from a stand still and was beaten for taking to top 2 poles off.

I remember the general standard of riding was dreadful but those are two incidents that really stick in my memory - does anyone else remember these? I am sure I remember thinking - this is the Olympics and they are riding in a way that would get them kicked out of a PC rally...

If I am remembering correctly then yes I agree, either the horse riding phase should be taken out or there should be some sort of test to prove the competitors can actualy ride before they are allowd in the SJ arena.
 
Lillith, the one that sticks in my mind more is that of the, I think French, male rider who burst into the ring on a large chestnut who has a ‘look at me, I’m on telly!’ look on his face, and proceeded to literally gallop flat out (I think the horse’s decision, rider was merely there to tug it in the right sort of direction) at all fences. Didn’t look stylish but at least they were getting over the fences fairly reasonably in comparison to others – the horse was very able to not flatten going at that pace!

Still at a million miles an hour they approach the triple and do make it over all elements but horse just stacks it on landing over 3rd element and flings rider out of saddle. Horse unhurt, gets up straight away and lo and behold, rider has his foot caught in the stirrup. Rider dragged at walk whilst flailing around causing horse to panic and kick out. Hoof and face connect, which does dislodge rider, but also I imagine breaks his nose and causes significant bleeding.

RIDER REMOUNTS (!!!!!!!) and heads to next fence where about 6 strides out the bell is rung for him being out of time. Horse pulled out of approach and rider I imagine off to hospital!

I watched the whole men’s MP riding in horror – real car crash tv.
 
I actually think the idea of the modern pentathlon is great and I did a bit if triathlon when i was in PC, it's good fun BUT seemingly how it is run currently is not right and is causing uneccesary suffering for the poor horses. In MY opinion these people competing in the sport should be good at all the disciplines and should, as far as I am concerned have to have their own horses and compete their own horses at the events. The problem that their seems to be is the showjumping part of it seems to be seen as a joke and is carried out in a rather gung ho way. Why? Why can't it be regulated along the same lines as the BS or even PC rules state? If a rider falls off for example (ok they can't be eliminated maybe) that should penalise them 'x' amount, the same with knocking rails down and stops should etc. Excessive use of the whip/spurs should be penalised in the same way.

I don't see why the horses used are not ones that belong to the competitors. Eventers, showjumpers and dressage riders etc take their own horses to these events so why can't the pentathletes do the same?

They need to rethink the whole event as it's beyond a joke now.
 
I have read some of the responses with interest. I have no doubt that Modern Pentathletes are brave and dedicated to their sport. My concern is not the competitors who have a choice in the matter, it is a horse welfare issue. I could not believe the condition of some of the horses at the last Olympics. If that is the "showcase" of Modern Pentathlon I hate to think what goes on at lesser events. There is NO WAY many horses would have passed a trot up as in eventing at even the lower levels (FEI 1*) far less at an event televised around the World. While it may well be the case that GB riders are of an adequate standard but others obviously are not.The certificate of compentence sounds a bit of a farce to me. If you have a competitor who is brilliant at all the other phases is someone going to say they can't compete because they can't ride?..I have my doubts on that one.Who issues the certificates? Exchange riding for another sport which doesn't involve an animal, fencing done badly doesn't hurt anyone, well maybe the fencer!! exchange riding for another sport where if the equipment is broken through incompetance the only thing to suffer is the bank balance...what about ping pong!
 
Perhaps one solution would be to increase the points for the riding phase.This would give added incentive to get it right.Maybe even turn it into,whats it you showjumpers call it when the rider does maybe 8 fences then can only continue if they have gone clear? That would really put the cat amongst the pigeons:D:D. A Modern Pentathlete has to train for 5 sports and at the top level that can be a full time job. They wind up prioritising based on the overall advantage to them. Running and swimming,the faster you go the more points you get. Shooting and riding basicly there is a maximum you can get so there is less incentive to train to get those extra few points. Fencing is a strange one because it is the only one where you are in direct competition against your opponents. Alter the scoring and training will alter accordingly.
 
Now that is a very good idea, much better than my ping pong suggestion! and presumably any dressage judge worth their salt should easily be able to tell if a horse is hopping lame. I would imagine, maybe wrongly, that there would be plenty of "schoolmaster/mistress" dressage horses available to be used at Modern Pentathlon events. Certainly that SHOULD stop any real horrors happening to horses during the short time that they are ridden by competitors.
 
harry said:
I couldn't agree more with you both. I fail to see how watching lame/unsound horses passengered by competitors who clearly cannot ride has any place in modern sport.
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hear hear. the standard of riding at the Olympics was truly shocking, as was the state of some of the horses. Indefensible. This latest tragic accident is no surprise, unfortunately. They should get rid of the riding part completely imho, it's too random anyway, really unfair on (some) riders as well as horses.
 
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