Monty Roberts (an owners perspective) also in Comps

applecart14 said:
Hedwards yes good points, but had other people load him and its made no difference. It took a group of about six to load him when I got knocked out and carted off to hospital in October!

Yes the horses loading backwards definetely feel more comfortable as the research done into it has been quite extensive. If I were to buy a new box I would definetely take that into consideration.
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I would think after he knocked you out, all of the group of 6 will have been 'on guard' and not neccessarily in the best position to approach things calmly/confidently... I doubt i would, maybe worth another try?

You can try loading him backwards in your trailer if you have front unload and enough room inside - thats how i did it for my dissertation as we had no rear load trailer avaliable.
 
applecart14 said:
The point which I am desperately trying to put across is that height/banging head and other trailer related problems are irrelevant. THe horse has been fine in the same trailer for 7.5 years. Fine to load, fine to travel. Is still fine to travel, not a murmur out of him. The trailer has not suddenly shrunk, or the horse has not developed a massive growth spurt.
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I think most do understand this point, however, my point would be if he was scared whitless in the trailer when he met the pigs, he may have entirely changed his opinion of the trailer, and he now sees it as a small confined space that trapped him near the pigs... and this is now his association with it...
 
I think OP is getting a rough deal on here now, i thing head height in the trailer is the new "trendy" excuse now used by lots of IH+NH people when the dont have time to work out the actual problem. In OP's case it could be the pigs it may not be but if the horse is inconcistent and have always traveled in this trailer its unlikely to be head height. Thats just my opinion having had a difficult loader or 2! OP you need to try and clarify if it is the pigs, driving, space that are causing the problem. I have a mare that only travels with no pratitions. But i do swear by the dually! esp for strong horses but learn to use it and train your horse with it first.
 
Caol Ila said:
I get the sense from Applecart that she felt a bit dismissed and irrelevant when Kelly and Monty didn't seem to think her interpretation of Bailey's fear was very important.
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At last! Thank you. Its easy shoving a label of roof too low. It hasn't been too low for the last seven years.

For a horse to stare and snort at a pile of tarmacadum on a car park believing it to be the black pig in the photo for four hours obviously has a tremendous fear. Associating the pigs with loading in the trailer just made it worse. Seeing piglets run out in front of him down the lane was the straw that broke the camels back. Thoughts came flooding back of the pigs at the show centre. They thoughts all got combined and the association with the trailer became stronger.

I don't need to be Kelly or Monty to work that one out. Anyway I have had enough of this post now. Thank you for all your replies good and bad.

xxxx
 
Just to clarify, I think it's important for the OWNER to have the trainer acknowledge and listen to their perspective/interpretation. It's less important for the horse and trainer, since it doesn't matter if the horse was traumatized by pigs behind the trailer, or falling over in the trailer, or whatever... the trainer would address the fear issue in the same way. In the case of my own horse who went from a good loader to bad loader overnight, I haven't the faintest idea why she woke up one day and decided she wasn't going on that trailer. But for the trainers who worked with me on fixing it, it didn't matter whether I had the great American novel explaining why she developed trailer-phobia, or no clue at all. If I had the great American novel, however, I would have been upset too if the trainer completely and intransigently dismissed it out of hand. They have to train the people as well, and explanations are important to them!
 
The thing is applecart14 you need to make a plan. There will be no quick fix and you will probably have to learn some new skills. There are suggestions of people to get out to help you already posted so perhaps think about using one of them.
New skills you learn in the process will stand you in good stead for continuing to help him.
I think you need to say...ok that wasn't what I needed so I need to move on with a new approach. :)

ps. Second Caol Ila's point about the owner needing the training/learning.
 
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Just one more thing before you go...

You say sometimes he loads ok and sometimes he doesn't. Forget the pigs for now and when you practice loading keep a record of everything. Time of day, weather conditions, location of trailer who is present, anything you can think of.
See if there is any pattern to his behaviour. Might be a waste of time but it might just give you a 'eureka' moment. Good luck. I had a very bad loader, 17.3hh and a trailer height of just over 7'. He loads fine these days, took about half an hour to sort him out. Unloading however.......:rolleyes:
 
Looking at an alternative way of solving the problem - could you try and help your horse get over his fear of pigs if that is the main issue he has a problem with?

My horse got scared of loading after being at a venue with golfers - he was petrified of them!!

I took him back there on a non-show day and spent ages getting him used to the golfers and it worked a treat!

Good luck - oh and look at some u-tube videos of monty and max on the internet and try putting some of their methods into practice yourself - you may be able to do it all on your own just using a differnt method!

xx
 
I think auslander has a good point with the associated pain idea. But I think whatever the cause, I'd try the easiest, cheapest solution first. Get a good padded poll guard incase he has banged his head, & use it everytime he goes in a trailer. Then just feed him on the ramp everyday for a week. Then in the trailer every day for a month. Won't take him long to associate trailer = feed. As long as you have the bucket in place before you lead him over, its not rewarding him for behaving badly in the way it would be if you got a bucket after he played up. It might need to be a proper feed at first, but in time you can reduce it to half an apple or 6 pony nuts in a bucket.
 
webble said:
I was thinking more if he has a hay net the way they pull the hay out and the head moves up, there needs to be space for that. I was wondering if that had been an issue
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I have a 14.1 in a slightly under 6ft high trailer. She has never hit her head on the roof pulling hay out the hay net. I did use a poll guard when I travelled her in it initially as an extra safety measure but she doesn't like a poll guard and as I say it hasn't been an issue. I really think horses need more credit for their spacial awareness than they might hit their head while pulling hay out a net, they can pull it out down the way and I'd expect that's what a normal relaxed horse would do.

I don't think it's the pigs and I don't think it's the height of the trailer. I think this can be resolved with the right handling since the horse was quite happy for 7.5 years.
 
It's not the pigs. And I don't think OP needs to get rid of her trailer and buy a taller one. She just needs to retrain the horse to be happy to go in and out of the trailer again. It's not difficult and OP will find it surprising how quickly her horse makes a turnaround when the time is taken to properly teach loading the horse in a positive manner.
 
applecart14 said:
I don't want a massively bigger car. I plan on keeping mine. Its doing 44.4mpg towing and 44.9mpg not towing, and 55mpg on long journeys. The insurance is under £300 and it flew through the MOT. I don't want another car thank you very much, its out of the question as is a horse box. A 900KG and 1000KG trailer is out of the question, I would be nearly over the limit without taking into account equipment.

The point which I am desperately trying to put across is that height/banging head and other trailer related problems are irrelevant. THe horse has been fine in the same trailer for 7.5 years. Fine to load, fine to travel. Is still fine to travel, not a murmur out of him. The trailer has not suddenly shrunk, or the horse has not developed a massive growth spurt.
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Read my post before getting defensive, I said you WOULDN'T need a massively bigger car. Maybe a slightly bigger one, but not massively.

And for what it is worth, your fuel economy is not that good, you could easily get a car with a MUCH bigger towing capacity that would not use much more fuel. Ours will tow 2.8t and gets 45mpg on average, mainly doing short journeys.

I understand that for 7.5 years the horse didn't have a problem with the trailer, but he does now. Is it not worth checking out whether a different trailer might help? It might not, in which case no need to worry about changing cars, but it might and you might get your happy to load horse back.

I don't understand why you are being so negative about even considering trying a different trailer. You may well be able to get one that WOULDN'T require any change of car that your horse is happier with.

I'm not dismissing the pig connection, in one of my earlier posts I suggested that feeling scared by the pigs may have made him feel claustrophobic in the trailer that had previously been fine and that may have been why he decided it isn't right that day. But you seem to be reluctant to consider practical solutions.
 
Spring Feather said:
It's not the pigs. And I don't think OP needs to get rid of her trailer and buy a taller one. She just needs to retrain the horse to be happy to go in and out of the trailer again. It's not difficult and OP will find it surprising how quickly her horse makes a turnaround when the time is taken to properly teach loading the horse in a positive manner.
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I just wondered whether that was having seen the pic or not?

I just think that a flight animal is likely to have the potential for anxiety when their ears are touching the top or the trailer with the head at normal height?

But perhaps I am just too used to seeing a 14.2 in a 505 :o
 
ester said:
I just wondered whether that was having seen the pic or not?

I just think that a flight animal is likely to have the potential for anxiety when their ears are touching the top or the trailer with the head at normal height?

But perhaps I am just too used to seeing a 14.2 in a 505 :o
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I did see the picture of the horse in the trailer and my automatic reaction was 'trailer is not tall enough for horse', but then I considered it; the horse was on high alert so he was as tall as he can be at that moment in time. Under normal circumstances he wouldn't be stressed and thus his head would be lowered. I do agree though, I don't personally like horses in trailers which are too low for them, my own trailer is 7'6" tall and is fine for even my big horses, but then my lot are good to trailer (we trailer loose over here) and are always at ease in the trailer so headheight isn't really too important for them, especially as for most of the journey their heads are on the floor eating hay.
 
Yes I can borrow a trailer, but the whole point is the horse isn't consistent. He will go in sometimes, and other times won't go in for two hours. Yesterday he loaded in under a minute before the demo. Last week five mins, the week before 20 mins, the week before that ten minutes. Before that not at all, etc, etc. Something in his head changed that day he saw the pigs. You can see him staring at the pigs in the photo. Four hours hiding behind a trailer and creeping around to sneek a peek at five minute intervals for four hours is telling me that was what started the ball rolling.

He did go in a trailer belonging to someone whose horse is a nightmare to load to give it a lead. It took about four mins to get him in. But doesn't prove anything really.

If I try my friends trailer today I doubt he will go in unless he has been starved, and even if he does, he probably wont the next time. But I will try.
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Yet again, everything you describe is a horse who has generalised a fear reaction. We do it too - when we have a frightening experience, we don't just end up fearing the thing that might have triggered it, but also other random things that were around at the time - I have come across someone who had a fear of birds, after several birds flew up during an incident when she was hit by a car. The birds didn't hurt her, they didn't cause the accident - that's not how the brain works. It forms an image of all the things that were present at the time of the scare, and then uses them to help predict whether scary things are about to happen again.

A prime characteristic is that the fear reaction isn't the same every time -sometimes you get days or weeks when it's fine or very minor, then you get a full blown reaction. The key thing is, it doesn't get any better and over time, it gradually gets worse.

If you had a behaviourist work with you, they'd have explained this? Along with working out a programme of counterconditioning. If they didn't, they weren't qualified as a behaviourist.

Yes, it could be pain. Yes, it could be the trailer. But wouldn't you eliminate the fear response first? And that doesn't mean working with pigs... it means working with the trailer. If there's a problem with the trailer, you'll find out at this point, since the process gives the horse a chance to show if it's a generalised fear, or a problem with the entrance to a too small trailer.

If (as you say separately) your horse has a problem with pigs, you can deal with that too. It's not insurmountable, and can be done without force or coercion.

Day 1 - never seen a pig before, started off at bottom of hill refusing to approach pigs, ended up looking at them calmly from a safe distance
Photo0062.jpg


Day 3 - now curious about pigs, and stayed watching them for some time after I left :
Photo0066.jpg
.

Ended up able to touch noses with the pigs and graze calmly beside them.

No headcollar, no pressure halter, no carrot stick, just rewards, repetition and working within the horse's comfort zone. It works with all horses if you just take the time.

Next time you want to educate your horse peeps and show him something new, don't!
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NExt time you want to educate your horse, start off in a setting where the horse's adrenaline isn't already up, and then once they're happy there, you can start to do the same thing in increasingly scary environments :) We all make bad calls from time to time, no point beating yourself up about, just a case of working out how to best deal with the fallout.
 
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Why on earth would you show your horse something known to be frightening like pigs with him stuck in a tin can?! They are a flight animal for petes sake

Again if his ears are touching the ceiling the trailer is too small. One of those than you are going to have to get over and realise, tough poo about the money - its a side to owning horses, if you cant afford the right equipment - dont bother.

Im guessing its your own hang up about the whole issue now that has probably snowballed it. Your pre conceptions about loading, your body language, tone of voice etc.

You need to mentally wipe the slate clean, forget all this nonsense about pigs (the MR team wont have asked in-depth questions about this as its not that helpful to the present - sounds like you were wanting a therapy session, nevermind the horse!) and just move on.
 
FfionWinnie said:
I think you need to forget about the pigs frankly.

I haven't read their books so I can't recommend them but I can say there is a comprehensive loading section in Richard Maxwell's train your young horse and I would recommend you read that. Using a pressure halter to load horses is not rocket science nor is it some big magical mystical thing you need hours to learn. It's the most simple thing and makes complete sense once you understand it however it has changed my life so dramatically with horses I can say if you learn it, you will load your horse into anything with no drama and no upsetting the horse.

It sounds like Kelly has actually shown you all the techniques you need to know and maybe you just expected it to be more dramatic than it was.

The key now is repetition. Get him in the trailer 50 times a day for a week then keep repeating it regularly to reinforce the positive experience. Do not use treats or "starvation" use the pressure halter and a good bond with your horse. Don't start a battle you can't finish, so make sure you always have plenty of time to follow through.
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This makes sense to me. Whether it's Max's halter a Dually, rope halter or normal headcollar, it is down to technique, the use of pressure and release, timing and not having the 'intent' to load in the handlers mind.
 
Spring Feather said:
It's not the pigs. And I don't think OP needs to get rid of her trailer and buy a taller one. She just needs to retrain the horse to be happy to go in and out of the trailer again. It's not difficult and OP will find it surprising how quickly her horse makes a turnaround when the time is taken to properly teach loading the horse in a positive manner.
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Pretty much this. The situation is what it is and, demo experience aside, there is not much point to reliving the past.

If, OP, you feel the pig issue is going to affect the horse in other ways (say, you frequent a venue with pigs or often meet them out hacking), then that's something to deal with separately. I'm not sure of the details of the pig experience but there is some evidence he inadvertently had a "flooding" experience. While this can be a useful behavioural therapy it's generally not recommended because of the potential for it to go wrong. Perhaps worth doing a bit of reading on that possibility.
 
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Applecart, can I just ask what in gods name made you decide to take the horse to see some pigs in the first place? That's the part that I'm most puzzled about to be honest.
FWIW I think the pig visit is a red herring in all this + I've travelled a big horse in a 505 before and it was the length rather than the height that was the issue (remove partition and allow horse to stand at an angle - experienced good traveller - still is- that needed to get to the vets in a hurry). I think it's more that inadvertently you've allowed him to become the decision maker in this. Something like the Dually used properly should put you back in charge again.
 
FfionWinnie said:
I think you need to forget about the pigs frankly.

I haven't read their books so I can't recommend them but I can say there is a comprehensive loading section in Richard Maxwell's train your young horse and I would recommend you read that. Using a pressure halter to load horses is not rocket science nor is it some big magical mystical thing you need hours to learn. It's the most simple thing and makes complete sense once you understand it however it has changed my life so dramatically with horses I can say if you learn it, you will load your horse into anything with no drama and no upsetting the horse.

It sounds like Kelly has actually shown you all the techniques you need to know and maybe you just expected it to be more dramatic than it was.

The key now is repetition. Get him in the trailer 50 times a day for a week then keep repeating it regularly to reinforce the positive experience. Do not use treats or "starvation" use the pressure halter and a good bond with your horse. Don't start a battle you can't finish, so make sure you always have plenty of time to follow through.
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Good advice ^^^^
 
I don't think it is important what initially upset your horse. It happened and now you need to solve the problem.
We suddenly had a problem. We took our young horse who always loaded into our lorry to an evening lesson. It was light on the way there but dark to reload. We had the box facing into a bright light. We now realise she couldnt see the bottom of the ramp properly and stumbled. That was enough to un nerve her. We couldnt get her in and luckily were allowed to stable there over night. Next day we trained her in a dually for the first time and then went to load she soon realised it realeased when she went forward and loaded. Each time we practiced she got better. Now we still pop it on to load but dont really need it.
They gave you good advice. If the height is not a problem your horse will soon improve with a dually as they get reward and release if they load. In their experienced opinion it is too low ,if it is you will still have a problem.
Sounds to me like they did a good job. Forget the feed to get them in use a dually, there are usually some on ebay second hand
 
Zebedee said:
Applecart, can I just ask what in gods name made you decide to take the horse to see some pigs in the first place? That's the part that I'm most puzzled about to be honest.
FWIW I think the pig visit is a red herring in all this + I've travelled a big horse in a 505 before and it was the length rather than the height that was the issue (remove partition and allow horse to stand at an angle - experienced good traveller - still is- that needed to get to the vets in a hurry). I think it's more that inadvertently you've allowed him to become the decision maker in this. Something like the Dually used properly should put you back in charge again.
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Sorry guys it really frustrates me when people choose to post when they havent read all the previous posts - plus Applecart needs a friend :) to stick up with her I think as this is getting silly now.

Applecart clearly states here:
"It was the terror of the pigs at the show centre, the hiding behind his trailer snorting in their direction the next time there for four hours between classes and the fear of them lurking in the trailer ready to chew his feet."

She took Bailey to a show, and he had to wait in between classes where he could see the pigs. She was never deliberately intending to scare her horse by making him stand in a trailer or next to the trailer staring at pigs.

That's all I have to say on the matter - if you are going to bother to reply and criticise someone try reading the ENTIRE post first, especially the ones from the OP as more often than not the answers to your questions wil already be there.
 
In my opinion, it is better for Applecart to believe it is a "pig" problem, so that she can mentally put this into perspective. I'm probably not explaining this very well, but if she can say to herself, "no pigs here, Bailey will load fine", less tension will be transmitted to the horse than if her mindset is saying "ooh, trailer roof too low, Bailey won't load".
As for the trailer roof height... just as we are all taught to walk close behind a horse, because a kick from 6 inches is going to hurt much less than a kick from 12/18 inches, so a horse will hurt his head far more if he can get the speed and impetus that a foot over his head will allow, rather than being aware of the roof close to his ears.
Someone above said that all horses can be taught to not be afraid of the "scary stuff" by becoming accustomed to it hasn't met my old boy... he has an irrational fear of round hay bales if we meet them out hacking. Yet he will hog the bales in the field, will school round them, pass them in different places on the drive. But spot one any closer than 30' when hacking and there will be a full on battle to stop him spinning and ******ing off! :confused:
Applecart, Bailey looks and sounds like a really nice horse. But when I clicked on your photo links I was puzzled for a moment, because I had assumed you were the man in your signature! :o

Good luck and hope you get things sorted. :)
 
applecart14 said:
And 1stclassIan, I love you! You crack me up.
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Ah, I thought - things are looking up here! Then I read:-

I do feel awfully guilty for having these dark thoughts! x
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Well, I can understand you having second thoughts about declaring love for me over the InterWeb - but really - less than a dozen words later - I'm devastated!

My mare actually wouldn't load at all - I did manage to take her to the Vet's once but as she flew out of the lorry and toted me around their place hanging on the the headstall for dear life - both Vet's decided that she was fitter than their planned operation was designed to do! I'd add that I spent the entire journey in the lorry with her, looking in her eye while holding the partition bolt in the roof every time we turned a corner and holding her head down to stop her putting it through the glass fibre panel - this despite providing a gamgee wrapped poll guard making her ensemble similar to an old cartoon of someone with bad toothache!
Actually, I owe my life with the mare down to her reluctance at lorry travel. When the yard she was on as a school horse was dispersed in a divorce settlement, many horses disappeared to all corners of the Earth, she was put in a large lorry but threatened to kick it to shreds when others were added - thus she was left behind allowing me time to buy her. That's a rather romantic story really ( sorry if you've aready read it) my wife learned to ride on her and became besotted ( at the time, I thought she was a old plodder ( the mare not my wife) and had my eye on two other magnificent horses also for sale - both went permanently lame so lucky escape) said wife became very tearful when the news of school closure and beloved mare parting - so I sneeked off and bought her as a surprise Christmas pressy! Ahhhh...

I completely agree with the other poster who mentions the amount of weight adjusting horses do when travelling - and this may be what frits the life out of some of them - having been in the back with mine - it's flipping alarming for a human - the noise when other vehicles go passed is very unnerving.

If you've had a problem loading - spending an hour or more trying - I'm sure that emotions on all sides were running high and this is hardly conducive to happy thoughts, much more likely to reinforce the refusal behavior.

My advice would be to have some practice when there's no pressure, perhaps get in the habit of running your horse through the trailer every day, put her hard food in there - this way it's not an extra merely her normal feed in a different place. I did this for a horse I took to the owner's wedding - everyday for about six months! I didn't want 300 people stuck in their finest while I chased a horse around the yard! Success! Mind you, Had a lovely lorry to go in - CCTV and an intercom so I could talk to said horse all the way - people were laughing at traffic lights because they could see me talking and hear the horse whinny from the back!
 
Sorry KC100 but in the OP it clearly states........"
following a visit to see a couple of pigs whilst at a show centre."
(Sorry can't do a proper quote as posting from phone)
In a later post Applecart also advises that people 'shouldn't take their horses out to show them new things' or words to that effect.

I have every sympathy for Applecart, but I'm not sure that it's me who needs to pay more attention when reading posts ;)

Near where I live is a bridleway that runs past a zoo. One day a hunt member decided to take his pt 2 pt horse up there to 'meet' the elephants whose enclosure was on the zoo boundary below the bridleway (again god only knows why he thought that would be a good idea...). The horse was found still tacked up but unharmed two days later, a few hours before his owner was discharged from hospital having been severely concussed in the fall he'd sustained when the horse reacted extremely violently at the sight of the elephants !
 
Zebedee said:
One day a hunt member decided to take his pt 2 pt horse up there to 'meet' the elephants !
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My mare met a whole troop of elephants from Robert Fossett's circus and never batted an eyelid! However, she put in some snorts that would kick start a jumbo jet at a show where we'd hacked over to give moral support to my daughter who was completing. After several of these huge blasts ( quite hilarious when you're sitting up top eh?) I leaned over to look her in the eye saying "what's all that about and what can you see?" Following her line of sight, I could see a white thing about two fields away ( about the size of the Queen's head on a stamp from there!). It's a GOAT, you silly old thing! "Smells a bit like a pig to me" ( she used to talk back to me all the time ) "Well I assure you it's a goat," "What's one of them then?" "Cor blimey what kind of IRISH horse are you and never seen a goat!!!"

We also walked - very quietly - around a swarm of bees once, they'd come to rest at the side of a track we used a lot - she saw it before me ( of course ) but didn't snort or anything just turned round a bit as if to direct my attention. Get that Monty!
 
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