Monty Roberts (an owners perspective) also in Comps

1stclassalan said:
My mare met a whole troop of elephants from Robert Fossett's circus and never batted an eyelid! However, she put in some snorts that would kick start a jumbo jet at a show where we'd hacked over to give moral support to my daughter who was completing. After several of these huge blasts ( quite hilarious when you're sitting up top eh?) I leaned over to look her in the eye saying "what's all that about and what can you see?" Following her line of sight, I could see a white thing about two fields away ( about the size of the Queen's head on a stamp from there!). It's a GOAT, you silly old thing! "Smells a bit like a pig to me" ( she used to talk back to me all the time ) "Well I assure you it's a goat," "What's one of them then?" "Cor blimey what kind of IRISH horse are you and never seen a goat!!!"

We also walked - very quietly - around a swarm of bees once, they'd come to rest at the side of a track we used a lot - she saw it before me ( of course ) but didn't snort or anything just turned round a bit as if to direct my attention. Get that Monty!
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Haha. I love that a herd of elephants are fine, but a distant goat is worrying! :D

When you first came to this forum, bringing some (errmm) somewhat contenscious views :rolleyes: I was quite definitely not a fan. ;) Nor were most, in fact I remember there was a lot of button-pushing and vanishing comments. plus a whole thread dedicated to Alan-bashing. All of which I suspected you enjoyed.

How times have changed, I log in, go to New Posts, see your name and thing "Oh goodie, this will be entertaining". Sometimes baffling (your typing doesn't always keep up with your thoughts perhaps :D). occasionally annoying, often very funny but always entertaining.

How dull HHO (and life) would be without people like you. :):)
 
FionaM12 said:
Haha. I love that a herd of elephants are fine, but a distant goat is worrying! :D
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Yep, aren't horses something? I spent literally years getting into my mare's head but much of it remained a mystery.

When you first came to this forum, bringing some (errmm) somewhat contenscious views :rolleyes: I was quite definitely not a fan. ;) Nor were most, in fact I remember there was a lot of button-pushing and vanishing comments.
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Well it was rather an emotive subject for a male to engage in on a largely female site eh? But I rather think that most of the criticism came from folk who had already made up their minds ( dressage judges in their day jobs perhaps?) about me and my opinions even before they read what I wrote - I can well remember a whole stream of invective about the runaway 16 year old and yet a few days ago there was a thread of a fifty or so young women who had all indulged long before that age and ten or so had actually moved in with a bloke by then - so vindication - if I ever needed it.
plus a whole thread dedicated to Alan-bashing. All of which I suspected you enjoyed.
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No, I didn't enjoy it. I thought it rather childish and ill considered and mourned the fact that my posts could be read by these people wrongly - I thought this was a site for adult discussion and so was more disappointed than anything else.
How times have changed, I log in, go to New Posts, see your name and thing "Oh goodie, this will be entertaining".
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Ah - that's what familiarity will do for you !
Sometimes baffling (your typing doesn't always keep up with your thoughts perhaps :D). occasionally annoying, often very funny but always entertaining.
How dull HHO (and life) would be without people like you. :):)
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I'm probably baffling to you because of the age, gender, experience etc., difference - I admit to often writing like an eighteenth century novel because that's the way my mind works - I've never used one word where twelve will fit! I started reading Shakespeare when about seven or eight and wondered why all my peers thought I was wierd!

And as for entertaining:- I've been known to do five minutes when the light comes on after opening the fridge, boom,boom, tishhhhh.
 
I can't comment on the demo or anyone's perceptions of what should happen, if the trailers unsuitable or anything else other than the pigs.
I really think you need to find a way of letting go of the pig experience, I know its hard to let go of a bad experience but it really is self destructive.
Good luck with finding a solution to your problem :)
 
TBH I always thought that it was quite usual and kind of the point for MR not to have too much to do with the horses in the demo beforehand and not know too much about them etc??

I also agree the reason why he stopped loading (pigs I think you said??)is irrelevant to curing the issue.I had an RA out to a difficult pony years ago and she also was totally uninterested in my explanations and thoughts on the cause of our issues,at the time I thought like you that it was strange but when questioned she said that the problem was the same no matter what the cause,and that the cause had no bearing on the method for dealing with it,which is perfectly true of course.
I think that we as owners get hung up on the reasons behind behaviour as it helps us rationalise it and eases our own frustrations.

Perhaps the real issue with the demo was the lack of communication about what to expect and the timetable etc rather than how it was actually done??

Sorry you didn't enjoy it or get as much out of it as you hoped,but hopefully it has given you some ideas of what to work on:)
 
applecart14 said:
That's really weird, Dad just said that horses of his height will have their ears close to or touching the ceiling. My trailer is easily 7ft high.

How strange that Dad and you should say the same sentence in the last hour.
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Perhaps your Dad and I have both seen from experience (I own 17 handers) that there are few horses over 17 hands travelling in any kind of lorry that are not able to easily brush their ears on the roof. I hunt with a number of people on huge horses that can barely fit in their boxes at all. I'm inclined, therefore, to believe you that since he was fine for nearly 8 years and only problematic since the pigs, that it was the pigs that set him off.

Faced with a primeval fear of predator animals, the last thing a prey animal like a horse will want to do is get in an enclosed space and remove his own ability to flee from the danger.

I think it's also entirely possible that your own anxiety now affects him (will I get to this show or not????). In your shoes I would try getting someone else to teach him to load consistently when you are not around and then reintroduce yourself to the mix. Good luck, I hate sticky loaders - so frustrating!
 
I agree with tiger tail, forget about the pigs! But do consider these points FFS
When I saw your pictures -ouch!! You have a big horse in what appears to be a pony trailer!!

1) 7ft is generally considered for horses up to 16h, and 7ft 6" for horses up the 17.2h and 8ft for anything really big- Clydesdales, percherons, tall TB's.
I don't know what height Bailey is but he looks a big heavy tall horse, so do consider a taller trailer.
2) Also consider the tow car- you are towing at the cars limit for very long journeys, your rear suspension could be completely knackered and giving him a bouncy uncomfortable ride. There is no real accurate way to check you suspension, bouncing on it is not a definitive test, replacing it with uprated suspension may be the way to check it, as your car will feel different afterwards. In the picture it is sitting low at rest, worth a check.
3) Consider that your horse may simply be completely sick of going in the trailer. You seem to have done a hell of a lot of travelling over long journeys, and if he's tired or even a little sore after a long day away, the travel home might just be enough for him to say no thank you!!
 
I used to keep a pony on a pig farm years ago. As we both got used to pigs, interesting animals and a bit of swill is great for putting weight on a pony, I have never understood the whole horses/pig thing.

And funnily enough, never had much of a problem since with any horse/pony meeting a pig unexpectedly.
Coincidence?

There are lots of people saying there are no quick fixes, time and patience leading to reconditioning using feed ect. which makes sense to me.

So why does the the whole Monty Roberts stuff come across like quick fixes and people are approving?

Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick, but how does a halter that relies on pressure/release affect any underlying problem?
 
Hedwards said:
I would think after he knocked you out, all of the group of 6 will have been 'on guard' and not neccessarily in the best position to approach things calmly/confidently... I doubt i would, maybe worth another try?

You can try loading him backwards in your trailer if you have front unload and enough room inside - thats how i did it for my dissertation as we had no rear load trailer avaliable.
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Sorry you misunderstand. He knocked me out when he put in a huge, huge jump at the first part of the double, the last fence on the jump off part of the SJ course. It was 3ft 3 and he must have jumped it at 3ft 9"!! We were placed up till then, and had got placed in the previous class! Grrrrr.

I didn't get knocked out loading him!
 
TigerTail said:
Why on earth would you show your horse something known to be frightening like pigs with him stuck in a tin can?!
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Grow up you silly person and read my post. I didn't show him it when he was in the trailer. I led him up to the pigs during the course of the day whilst at the show. He couldn't even see the pigs when he was in the trailer, just knew they were there.
 
Aarrghimpossiblepony said:
So why does the the whole Monty Roberts stuff come across like quick fixes and people are approving?

Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick, but how does a halter that relies on pressure/release affect any underlying problem?
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Its not a quick fix, it is a way to communicate what you want with your horse in a way the horse can understand.

My mare took 45 mins to load with three people, an incorrectly used dually, a schooling whip and a lot of carry on and force when I bought her (I was not there). This was into a 3.5 tonne lorry with a low ramp etc.

I did pressure halter work for a couple of days once I got her and then took her to my trailer which is a rattley aluminium cattle trailer and only 6ft tall. She loaded in 5 minutes, and note how calm and unfussed she is. She is 4! (When the vid goes against her side its because she was going squint and I needed that hand to straighten her up by the way!).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3wkWVY_jts
 
Zebedee said:
Applecart, can I just ask what in gods name made you decide to take the horse to see some pigs in the first place? That's the part that I'm most puzzled about to be honest..
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I was waiting between classes whilst out jumping at a show centre in Worcester. I walked around the car park and spotted some pigs in a paddock. I thought it would be a good education to show my horse the pigs. If I had known it was terrify him that much I wouldn't have. All the horses at the livery yard based on teh grounds of the show centre are paddocked next to the pigs. He wasn't too bad when I led him up to them, until one turned its head and snorted at him and that was it then, and he was terrified.

I am very much for showing your horses new experiences. I know of people who wouldn't dream of walking their horse up to something it is snorting at or shying at, but I like to show my horse the object of fear so they can see it close up and analyise it and then not be frightened of it any more. This is very effective when out hacking, say if my horse shies at a dustbin. I will walk him up to it, gradually getting him closer and closer. Eventually he will touch it with his nose and explore it (with his foot sometimes which is fine) and then he is fine with it. Obviously doing this down a country lane is fine when there are no cars around, you have to be sensible with things. Allowing your horse to continue to be scared of something when it doesn't have to be sounds crazy to me.

This is nothing new and what people generally do to allow their horse to build confidence in lots of new and interesting/scary things.
 
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applecart14 said:
Grow up you silly person and read my post. I didn't show him it when he was in the trailer. I led him up to the pigs during the course of the day whilst at the show. He couldn't even see the pigs when he was in the trailer, just knew they were there.
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WHICH IS TERRIFYING TO A FLIGHT ANIMAL TRAPPED IN A TIN CAN.

As thats the only bit of my post you've replied to Id like to suggest its you who needs to grow up :rolleyes: Accept your trailer is too small, accept its you causing the problem, shown by him being loaded by Kelly, and learn from it and move on!
 
irishcob said:
You have obviously focused for a long time on the incident with the pigs, and your horse's reluctance to load since. And indeed that no doubt was a contributing factor. But there may have been others. As you know a horse 'grows' when he is scared, and maybe when relaxed he was happy to travel in a slightly tight trailer, but perhaps once scared he HAS been banging his head. I'm not saying this IS what happened, but just pointing out that other factors may have come into play.

But of course the real issue in front of you (and Kelly and Monty) is that the horse no longer loads. The history of how it became that way is less important. You need the horse to learn to trust the trailer again and be happy going in and out of it.
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Excellent and interesting posts by everyone. I really agree with this post. It is important to 'let go' of any rationale you have placed OP as the reason to why or why not your horse loads.
Trainers are there to think outside the box - they have no emotional attachment to the horse infront of them and that is the perfect situation to start their work. I can understand their concern about the head height too. You need to set yourself up for success and with ears touching the ceiling you are not doing that.
 
I love how this version of the thread is circling around trailers and memory and owner psychology, while the Competition version has veered off to a discussion of operant conditioning as applied to goldfish and school-teachers! :D
 
applecart14 said:
Sorry you misunderstand. He knocked me out when he put in a huge, huge jump at the first part of the double, the last fence on the jump off part of the SJ course. It was 3ft 3 and he must have jumped it at 3ft 9"!! We were placed up till then, and had got placed in the previous class! Grrrrr.

I didn't get knocked out loading him!
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Ahhh apologies, crossed wires!

OP i can see this is an incredibly emotional situation for you. I think basically although the pigs were the trigger for this issue, the problem is now the trailer (and i dont mean the size of the trailer as such - am no expert and have no idea what the right size trailer would be) - so I do agree with the others that say forget about the pigs - that has happened, nothing you can do to change it. Now you need to concentrate on the trailer issue. Does it have a partition? if so can you take it out? do you have the front of the trailer open (is this possible) when you load him, so it is brigher/arier less confining for him? if its feasible, i would seriously consider the rear loading trial?

All I'll say is best of luck, we've all had situations like this with our horses, mine was a horse who would freak out unless she had at least 2-3 other horses around her all the time. Its upsetting and you just want your horse to be happy. Big hugs for you and the neddy - you will get over this, just try and keep a positive mindset when working with him, negativity around him/loading will only make the situation worse. oh and please do try and put pigs out of your mind.
 
Because I'm not sure anyone's answered your question yet applecart, RA stands for Intelligent Horsemanship Recommended Associate. We are based throughout the UK (Linda is Derbyshire I believe), and travel out to work with them and their horses, or have our own yards where we can take horses in for training. You can find more details on the IH website. Not only could they help with the loading, but also with the barging, and continuing with what Kelly's already taught you about how to use the Dually halter.
Hope this helps, and you and Bailey resolve the loading issue.
Sue
 
Brightbay said:
The answer is not more pressure and release, and improved groundwork, but to actually deal with the horse's emotional reaction to the trailer (which, as you pointed out, he'd never had before). There is one way, and one way only to deal with this without overriding the fear he already feels, and that's called counterconditioning. It is easy, pleasant for the horse as it involves no stress and a lot of rewards, and the only downside is that you need clear instructions from someone and a decent amount of time over a period of a few weeks to work on it. Once you've done it, the horse's fearful association with the trailer is replaced with a positive association, so you don't get reoccurences of the problem as you can do if you use pressure/release to paper over the cracks.

It can be done at home (by you), is simple, methodical, and based on the same science used to help people with phobias.
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This! It is also a way to communicate what you want with your horse in a way the horse can understand - and a very effective one.

Tinypony said:
Whether or not you use positive or negative reinforcement, you will still find yourself dealing with the horse in front of you.
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And this.
 
spookypony said:
I love how this version of the thread is circling around trailers and memory and owner psychology, while the Competition version has veered off to a discussion of operant conditioning as applied to goldfish and school-teachers! :D
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Do you have a link to that discussion? Thanks!
 
irishcob said:
Having worked behind the scenes on many of these demos, I am happy to add my own thoughts to this.

Certainly Kelly and Monty do NOT work with any of the horses before the demos. During the demonstrations there are often huge changes in a horse's behaviour, happily accepting what they previously could not, and there are inevitably howls of disbelief from some people who then claim the horse 'must have been worked with all afternoon' with 'hours of training by Monty'. Of course this couldn't be further from the truth. Kelly and Monty want to show, live in front of the audience with perfect openness and clarity, how they would deal with the issues put in front of them in their entirety.

You have obviously focused for a long time on the incident with the pigs, and your horse's reluctance to load since. And indeed that no doubt was a contributing factor. But there may have been others. As you know a horse 'grows' when he is scared, and maybe when relaxed he was happy to travel in a slightly tight trailer, but perhaps once scared he HAS been banging his head. I'm not saying this IS what happened, but just pointing out that other factors may have come into play.

But of course the real issue in front of you (and Kelly and Monty) is that the horse no longer loads. The history of how it became that way is less important. You need the horse to learn to trust the trailer again and be happy going in and out of it. Which is why perhaps on a busy day, they only wanted the main facts rather than a detailed history. Having ascertained that the horse was fit and not in any pain, they were happy to go ahead and work with him.

Most owners find that by watching Kelly or Monty work with their horse with the Dually that they are happy to go home and continue what they have been shown. If of course you are not confident, I imagine they will have suggested contacting your local RA for some on-going support?

I'm sorry you felt that you would have more one-to-one time with Kelly and Monty, but that is not really what is offered at the demos - it is for your horse to go forward and be worked in front of an audience. If what you are really after is a full days private training with your horse, you may be better off contacting a professional to come to your own yard for a day so you can really get to grips with any problems.

I sincerely hope that you find the demo experience WAS beneficial to your horse, and that he will continue to improve. Certainly he will have at least have some positive loading experiences under his belt, so to speak, so that with more time and work, you should have him happily up and down the ramp just like he used to. I would echo other people in suggesting you DO borrow a taller trailer for a while, as this will be more inviting for him to load into. And of course, best of luck to you both.
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Like! Sorry you felt disappointed with the experience OP. I had an IH person out to my daughters horse for an afternoon and found it a very positive experience, perhaps you need to organize something like this.
 
I knew a little mare once, she wouldn't pass pigs on the n/s, lots of spinning and spooking. On the o/s she was fine, long rein, no probs at all. Of course this did coincide with returning to the yard after a hack. But she was honest enough and when her saddle was eventually reflocked she lost her fear of pigs altogether. Sometimes you need to look beyond the obvious IMHO.
 
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TigerTail said:
WHICH IS TERRIFYING TO A FLIGHT ANIMAL TRAPPED IN A TIN CAN.

As thats the only bit of my post you've replied to Id like to suggest its you who needs to grow up :rolleyes: Accept your trailer is too small, accept its you causing the problem, shown by him being loaded by Kelly, and learn from it and move on!
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You really are very nasty. The horse didn't have a problem for seven years, or have you conveniently skirted over that. He literally ran up the ramp every weekend for seven years. Does that strike you as a horse who feels constricted in a trailer???

The previous horses I owned, 17.1hh, 16.3hh, 17hh, and 17.1hh didn't have a problem with it either.

And you suggesting that I need mental health help isn't at all helpful or kind.
 
applecart14 said:
He literally ran up the ramp every weekend for seven years. Does that strike you as a horse who feels constricted in a trailer???
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Of course there is no way for me or anyone else here to know for sure what your horse feels about the trailer, loading and/or travelling without actually seeing him. (And even then....!) However, I do think it is worth acknowledging that just because he didn't feel constricted before doesn't prove that he doesn't feel constricted now. I personally wouldn't rule it out.
 
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