Monty Roberts (an owners perspective) also in Comps

applecart14 said:
I was waiting between classes whilst out jumping at a show centre in Worcester. I walked around the car park and spotted some pigs in a paddock. I thought it would be a good education to show my horse the pigs. If I had known it was terrify him that much I wouldn't have. All the horses at the livery yard based on teh grounds of the show centre are paddocked next to the pigs. He wasn't too bad when I led him up to them, until one turned its head and snorted at him and that was it then, and he was terrified.

I am very much for showing your horses new experiences. I know of people who wouldn't dream of walking their horse up to something it is snorting at or shying at, but I like to show my horse the object of fear so they can see it close up and analyise it and then not be frightened of it any more. This is very effective when out hacking, say if my horse shies at a dustbin. I will walk him up to it, gradually getting him closer and closer. Eventually he will touch it with his nose and explore it (with his foot sometimes which is fine) and then he is fine with it. Obviously doing this down a country lane is fine when there are no cars around, you have to be sensible with things. Allowing your horse to continue to be scared of something when it doesn't have to be sounds crazy to me.

This is nothing new and what people generally do to allow their horse to build confidence in lots of new and interesting/scary things.
Click to expand...

Ok, yes I'm all for educating horses, but the key to that education is that they have the confidence in their rider / handler to go forwards in an obedient manner, not that they logically work things out. Although some horses are ok with pigs, I'd say (based on personal experience) that the majority aren't, & that pigs are in a totally different ballpark to dustbins & other inaminate objects.

My feeling here is that you focus far too much on the horses ability to think (they really aren't capable of complicated thought processes) & that you are in denial regarding the size of your trailer. The poster who suggested that perhaps the tension your horse is exhibiting when asked to load is making him taller has a very good point as well, possibly not one you've considered before?

I suggest you need to work on the techniques shown to you by Kelly,& maybe borrow a bigger trailer just to practice loading into for a few days? Perhaps if you see it make a difference to him you'll be convinced, but make sure you don't subconsciously discourage him from loading in to it just to prove a point to yourself ! Forget the pigs, start thinking of the horse more as an animal than as a sentient being capable of analytical thought & you'll be well on the way to solving this problem. Good luck, & perhaps you'll let us know how you get on?
 
things change..... I cannot understand your refusal to even contemplate that your horse might feel differently about your trailer/loading than he used to??? :confused:

You are also reading things that I can't see as I don't see any suggestion that you need MH assistance.
 
Yes someone (the person who said why would you show your horse a pig when he is in a tin can) suggested it was me that needed therapy not my horse.

This forum has a number of people who find hurling insults at people who have a genuine problem as acceptable.

It is usually because they don't take the time or trouble to read the OP and that is where the confusion comes in.

For the last time everyone, I don't have a total refusal to consider any other trailer. But like I have said about six times now, the horse isn't consistent. If he loads in my friends trailer today, he may not tommorow, if he doesn't does that mean he doesn't like the trailer as its not roomy enough??? No. It means he is not consistent or confident enough yet to consider any trailer 'safe' as he believes (I presume) that there are pigs on board. He loaded in mine to go to the demo (that's the trailer that pins him to the floor by not allowing him any headroom by the way) in under a minute. Next week it will take half an hour. The week after it may take five mins. I could go out and buy another trailer, or a horsebox. And find that he won't load in that, even though he loaded in the same trailer, or similar the week before. For those that were there at the demo, he actually refused initially to go in the horsebox willinglly. He didn't march straight on for Kelly Marks either. But he did go on and I was grateful for Kelly for her help (which I did say in my original post).


I really have totally had enough of this post now. I came on here to relate my story of my experience of the Monty Roberts demo. This I did. I did not say I didn't enjoy the demo, I did not say I didn''t find it useful. I did not say I wouldn't go again, I did not say I didn't learn anything. I did say I wasn't criticising, just giving my opinion, I did say Kelly was a lovely woman, I did say I was grateful for the help I had received and I did say I was going to buy a dually. Less than 24 hours after the demo I was trying to buy one off someone, so give me a chance please!!

I am sick of justifying myself - I spend my life justifying myself to people who don't make an effort to get to know me or understand me or where I am coming from, I do not wish to do it on a forum.

Thank you for the people who have kindly sent me PM's wishing me luck, telling me to ignore some of the rude and ignorant people on this forum and wishing me well for the future. Thank you for those that have read my post completely and have answered me in a kind and sensible manner.

I will let you know how the loading process goes. He is obviously getting better, loading in under a minute makes it feel like its going better already. I will try him again on Sunday, when hopefully I will have a dually to practice with.

kind regards
 
Last edited by a moderator:
applecart14 said:
I was waiting between classes whilst out jumping at a show centre in Worcester. I walked around the car park and spotted some pigs in a paddock. I thought it would be a good education to show my horse the pigs. If I had known it was terrify him that much I wouldn't have. All the horses at the livery yard based on teh grounds of the show centre are paddocked next to the pigs. He wasn't too bad when I led him up to them, until one turned its head and snorted at him and that was it then, and he was terrified.

I am very much for showing your horses new experiences. I know of people who wouldn't dream of walking their horse up to something it is snorting at or shying at, but I like to show my horse the object of fear so they can see it close up and analyise it and then not be frightened of it any more. This is very effective when out hacking, say if my horse shies at a dustbin. I will walk him up to it, gradually getting him closer and closer. Eventually he will touch it with his nose and explore it (with his foot sometimes which is fine) and then he is fine with it. Obviously doing this down a country lane is fine when there are no cars around, you have to be sensible with things. Allowing your horse to continue to be scared of something when it doesn't have to be sounds crazy to me.

This is nothing new and what people generally do to allow their horse to build confidence in lots of new and interesting/scary things.
Click to expand...

What jumps out at me OP, and I might be entirely wrong, is that you are passing your own fears onto your horse. You think your horse is going to be afraid of things, therefore you act as thats whats going to happen. So naturally your horse takes your lead and is spooky. Why on earth would you take your horse up to pigs at a competition venue when just about every person in the world who is horsy knows a lot of horses have a primevil fear of pigs?? You are trying to do too many things at once and then seem confused when your horse acts like a horse. Constantly stopping and letting your horse "explore" and "analyse" new objects just sounds like a way of making your horse shy at things. Even from your style of writing, you seem to have this constant detailed narritive of thoughts and fears circulating through your head, and seem to want to transmit them to your horse, whom you expect to behave like a human in analysing them. Generally its a better education for the horse if the rider ignores small things and concentrates on riding past them.

As for your trailer, if people are telling you its too small for your horse, if your horse's ears touch the roof, if your horse is difficult to load, wake up and smell the coffee!
 
You'll get on much better when you accept that it's your anxiety that's causing issues (which is exactly why my husband does our loading and not me!) and that it's you that's connecting the trailer with pigs. Personally I dont get why you think your horse assumes your trailer is full of pigs if he just saw them at a show. There are countless far more likely reasons for him to be hesitant, most of which you seem to find far less likely.
I'm sorry you didn't get the experience from the demo you were expecting. A one to one session will no doubt be much better and you'll find it more helpful. It won't cure pigs though. You have to forget about the pigs. If you want to move on then stop blaming pigs, and everyone else, stop stropping at people who are trying to offer you good advice, stop being passive aggressive and just accept that you have the situation you have and you're going to need to persevere and take on board other people's suggestions if you want to move forward. You're letting the pigs ruin your time with your horse. That's not good for either of you.
 
Applecart, your horse does not think there are pigs in the trailer. You are the one who believes your horse thinks there's pigs in the trailer. If you can move beyond your issues of the pigs then your horse will move on too. The pigs are only relevant in your head, not his. He won't load consistently because he does not have trust in his handler anymore. It really is as simple as that, and that is the reason Monty, Kelly were not interested in hearing about the pigs, because it is not relevant to moving forwards and getting your horse to have faith in you again in order to consistently load each and every time. Yes your trailer is technically too small for the horse BUT a horse that has confidence in it's handler WILL enter a space too small for it because it trusts the handler. You don't want to replace your trailer, so don't. But in order to use your trailer as you did previously with this horse it is up to you to gain that trust of your horse again. Please, please let go of the pig thing otherwise you are going to prolong this (minor) training issue. You've made the pigs into a mammoth taboo, drop them from your mind, it's nothing to do with them.
 
applecart14 said:
For the last time everyone, I don't have a total refusal to consider any other trailer. But like I have said about six times now, the horse isn't consistent. If he loads in my friends trailer today, he may not tommorow, if he doesn't does that mean he doesn't like the trailer as its not roomy enough??? No. It means he is not consistent or confident enough yet to consider any trailer 'safe' as he believes (I presume) that there are pigs on board. He loaded in mine to go to the demo (that's the trailer that pins him to the floor by not allowing him any headroom by the way) in under a minute. Next week it will take half an hour. The week after it may take five mins.
Click to expand...
I hear what you're saying. But couldn't the inconsistency you see in his behaviour be due just as easily to worries about headroom as worries about pigs? Given that he has continued to be travelled in a trailer that may or may not be causing him concern, and that he has continued, on and off, to show reluctance to enter it, the persistent factor (the headroom) is arguably more likely to be relevant than the one-off encounter with the pigs. Yes, his loading problems started the day he saw the pigs, but it could be coincidence, no? He might have had a bad experience in the trailer that day too.

I won't try further to persuade you to consider alternatives because doing so is likely to be counterproductive.

However, I do wish you success in retraining Bailey and best of luck in the future.
 
applecart14 said:
You really are very nasty. The horse didn't have a problem for seven years, or have you conveniently skirted over that. He literally ran up the ramp every weekend for seven years. Does that strike you as a horse who feels constricted in a trailer???

The previous horses I owned, 17.1hh, 16.3hh, 17hh, and 17.1hh didn't have a problem with it either.

And you suggesting that I need mental health help isn't at all helpful or kind.
Click to expand...


Ok - you replied to my original, helpful, post with 'grow up' because you didnt agree with what Id said, so please dont suddenly become woe is I im being picked on.

What you dont seem to be understanding is that he felt such fear in a confined space so is now worried about being there again, the previous 7 years mean nothing to him now. As I said you are stuck in the past - the fact he is inconsistent suggests you are inconsistent with your body language/timing/emotion.

I didnt say you needed mental help - I said it sounded as though you were wanting a therapy session, ie a professional to sit and listen to your side of it and how it makes you feel, well thats not a huge amount of help to the horse and wouldve clouded the professionals picture of the horse - which means its not as easy to work with them - hence why Monty and Kelly didn't ask you lots of questions about what had caused the problem.


ETA - just seen the 4 posts that have appeared whilst I was writing and re writing to tone my post down (!) for your sensibilities and it seems we are all saying the same thing.....
 
Can I just say I think everyone has been round and round (and over and under and inside and out of) the same things enough times. Time to call it quits and accept what the OP has said - she has read what you have all said. Enough already :D
 
Well as the OP thinks it is pigs that cause all the problems, why not get a pig and desensitize him to pigs? Then once he likes pigs the owner will believe he likes the trailer again as he isn't scared of pigs,and he will have confidence in his owner over loading and will load all the time.

Or is that too simple :p
 
zigzag said:
Errr why? Its my opinion on what the owner needs to do.
Click to expand...

Because you are all beginning to look like a bullying clique, and also because for anyone interested in that sort of subject the title of this one doesn't indicate that is what it is about.
You can advise, suggest, give people the benefit of your experience but you cannot force them to do it your way, and you people are constantly turning the knife and at the end of the day it is only your opinion. If she wants any help doing it your way she will ask - I have been on the receiving end of repeated "suggestions" as to something I should or shouldn't do, going over the same ground time and time again and in the end far from being inclined to take the advice you just feel like screaming "LEAVE ME ALONE!!!". It is counterproductive.
 
see that's what I meant about people reading things differently plenty of people have therapy/help with things without having a mental health issue (I know lots!). I would just have taken it as advice that if your anxious about loading him it might not be helping and that there are ways around that.
 
JillA said:
Because you are all beginning to look like a bullying clique, and also because for anyone interested in that sort of subject the title of this one doesn't indicate that is what it is about.
You can advise, suggest, give people the benefit of your experience but you cannot force them to do it your way, and you people are constantly turning the knife and at the end of the day it is only your opinion. If she wants any help doing it your way she will ask - I have been on the receiving end of repeated "suggestions" as to something I should or shouldn't do, going over the same ground time and time again and in the end far from being inclined to take the advice you just feel like screaming "LEAVE ME ALONE!!!". It is counterproductive.
Click to expand...

Turning the knife? First time I have replied to this thread
 
Crikey I didn't know we had forum police these days! I thought the forum was moderated by The Forum Admin Team since the demise of TFC but it seems I was wrong.....
 
FfionWinnie said:
I think you need to forget about the pigs frankly.

I haven't read their books so I can't recommend them but I can say there is a comprehensive loading section in Richard Maxwell's train your young horse and I would recommend you read that. Using a pressure halter to load horses is not rocket science nor is it some big magical mystical thing you need hours to learn. It's the most simple thing and makes complete sense once you understand it however it has changed my life so dramatically with horses I can say if you learn it, you will load your horse into anything with no drama and no upsetting the horse.

It sounds like Kelly has actually shown you all the techniques you need to know and maybe you just expected it to be more dramatic than it was.

The key now is repetition. Get him in the trailer 50 times a day for a week then keep repeating it regularly to reinforce the positive experience. Do not use treats or "starvation" use the pressure halter and a good bond with your horse. Don't start a battle you can't finish, so make sure you always have plenty of time to follow through.
Click to expand...


Good post.

If you really want to solve this issue then you need to take the bull by the horns and do it.

Feed the horse on the trailer, load him morning and night, off and on, off and on. keep on at it for a week and then when he's loading reliably you can take him for a short ride and then home. It needs to be as mundane as walking into a stable. I'm not sure what magic tricks you expected from the IH guys but it really comes down to the person who handles the horse every day to train it.

Re Pigs. Find a farm local that keeps pigs and walk him past them every day till he's used to them. Even better - borrow a pig and keep it in the next stable for a month.
I had a foal that was scared of cows - I waited until dark and then stuck him in a stable with a highland calf, by morning they were best mates. End of problem.
 
What a bizarre and unpleasant thread. In summary then the HHO massive believe the OP should buy a bunch of pigs to desentitise horse and self, invest in a new 4x4 and a specially enlarged trailer, procure a dually and stick a cattle prod up her arse, and all her problems will be solved - charming.
I thought the original post was interesting.
 
siennamum said:
What a bizarre and unpleasant thread. In summary then the HHO massive believe the OP should buy a bunch of pigs to desentitise horse and self, invest in a new 4x4 and a specially enlarged trailer, procure a dually and stick a cattle prod up her arse, and all her problems will be solved - charming.
I thought the original post was interesting.
Click to expand...

Not really, OP seems to be making a huge issue out of a problem that could be dealt with fairly simply. If she's that worried about the horse having a melt down if it sees a pig,then why not get it used to them? Likewise she has flat out rejected the advice of the IH people, who it would seem have simply suggested that she use a suitable trailer and vehicle for the horse. It does kind of appear that perhaps the OP has bigger issues than the horse.
 
My farmer bought a load of piglets a year ago and has had pigs alongside my mares paddock ever since. My mare detests them and is terrified of them, she will always be like this and it is not unusual. Some horse really hate pigs, others in the field are indifferent.
Lots of horses above 15hh could touch the roof of their transport with their ears if they really stood to attention.
So much hot air in this post so little common sense or consideration.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top