Monty Roberts demo horses

[applecart14]

Monty is coming to an equestrian centre near me next year and I'd like to put forward my horse who has loading issues. He suddenly decided after 7 1/2 years of literally trotting up the trailer ramp that he would start playing up to load. Gradually over a period of weeks the behaviour got worse and every time I load it usually takes between ten to thirty mins.

We have ruled everything we can out, from floor, to tyres, to tow vehicle to driver, to noise, smell, light, hot/cold, pain and everything else! I even listened to the Reiki lady who says Bailey has said that his boots are too tight, so he is now travelled without boots and it hasn't really made much improvement to him. It did the first time but not the second time.

He loads no quicker to come back from an event then he does to go. Today wasn't too bad, and it was ten mins to go and about five mins to come home, other days it will be fifteen to go and twenty to come home. He goes in so far, and then backs out, then goes in further then backs out, then in again, out, in and out and eventually he will come all the way in. But he only does this for food, and I feel this option will no longer be 'attractive' to him after a few more outings. I don't get angry, I have endless patience with him, and will sit there all afternoon if that is what it takes.

I know my horse and feel that he is doing this for a reason, although I can't work out what it is. It frustrates me. He performs well when we are out and appears to love his dressage and jumping.

I am hoping Monty might take us on as a loading demo but I am guessing that we are not 'challenge enough' for him. Do you think there is a chance he would use my horse, or would he want something that NEVER EVER loads?

 

[PandorasJar]

Worth contacting him if you want this and explain situation. Personally I'd rather pay a good instructor to come out and work with you and the horse rather than a demo with horse and audience. That's personal preference though

 

[Laafet]

What will happen is that they invite you along to leave you horse at the centre all day while a colleague of Monty will 'work' you horse in the round pen, they may attempt once to load him to see how bad he is, I will admit I did not see what they did with the bad loaders. After this if your horse is selected you will then get tickets to the evening 'performance'. I should know, my horse was chosen for the 'spooky' horse demo at ILPH a few years ago. Just a tip, they tend to pick a horse that will be a good 'showman' to the crowd. It is all about showing off Monty's skills, there were horses there that day that would have benefitted more than mine, but as mine made lots of noise and hoolied about then he was chosen.

 

[applecart14]

Worth contacting him if you want this and explain situation. Personally I'd rather pay a good instructor to come out and work with you and the horse rather than a demo with horse and audience. That's personal preference though

I don't know where I'd start to try and find someone though. I just don't want anyone who is going to start using lunge lines and whips and brooms, I don't want it to escalate to that. Not because I am all fluffy bunny. But because it will just create more of a problem than it would solve.

Right now I feel like we are holding onto the edge of a precipice. One false move and its all over. Sounds dramatic I know, but I love my horse dearly, and feel like he is trying to tell me something. Its only because he is so generous of heart that he tries to load. Bless him, it makes me really upset for him.

 

[applecart14]

What will happen is that they invite you along to leave you horse at the centre all day while a colleague of Monty will 'work' you horse in the round pen, they may attempt once to load him to see how bad he is, I will admit I did not see what they did with the bad loaders. After this if your horse is selected you will then get tickets to the evening 'performance'. I should know, my horse was chosen for the 'spooky' horse demo at ILPH a few years ago. Just a tip, they tend to pick a horse that will be a good 'showman' to the crowd. It is all about showing off Monty's skills, there were horses there that day that would have benefitted more than mine, but as mine made lots of noise and hoolied about then he was chosen.

That sounds interesting. I really hope they invite me.

 

[Boysy]

Why don't you try an RA? There is a list of them on the Intelligent Horsemanship website, they would come out and help you and teach you the tools/methods without having to try a demo.

To be honest if he does actually load then you probably wouldn't be picked as they need a good 'show' for the performances.

 

[Partridg3]

My friend took her bad loader. In true monty style she was following him up and down in and out of the lorry to rapturous applause. All was great, owner crying tears of happiness...till she tried to get her on the trailer to go home...no chance. We had to go and beg for help...couple of RAs then shoved her on using fence panels. Waste of a long day. Owner was distraught.

 

[tankgirl1]

I don't know where I'd start to try and find someone though. I just don't want anyone who is going to start using lunge lines and whips and brooms, I don't want it to escalate to that. Not because I am all fluffy bunny. But because it will just create more of a problem than it would solve.

Right now I feel like we are holding onto the edge of a precipice. One false move and its all over. Sounds dramatic I know, but I love my horse dearly, and feel like he is trying to tell me something. Its only because he is so generous of heart that he tries to load. Bless him, it makes me really upset for him.

If you don't get chosen, you could get an IHRA to come out and help you

http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/specialist-horse-training.html

 

[angelish]

were are you ?
i do loading problems but am likely to be too far north for to help you ,ring kelly marks they will recommend someone close enough to help you and will be far more benificial to you and your horse than using him in a demo

 

[Laafet]

My friend took her bad loader. In true monty style she was following him up and down in and out of the lorry to rapturous applause. All was great, owner crying tears of happiness...till she tried to get her on the trailer to go home...no chance. We had to go and beg for help...couple of RAs then shoved her on using fence panels. Waste of a long day. Owner was distraught.

How interesting you say that, I had a similar experience, both Kelly Marks, whom I do respect and Ian Vandenburgh stood by and watched as me and my friend struggled to get my horse back in the lorry to take him home, we had asked to bring it into the arena when the show was over to load as it was dark outside. They all just stood there watching.
I would recommend if you wanted to go down that route that you get an instructor out an IH or not, the demos are show pieces. My horse was not especially spooky but he did like to make a fuss, hence why he was chosen. It did not stop him being scared of fillers, competing away from home etc and I had done all the recommended ground work with him plus more. I was disappointed that when I asked Monty a direct question about how to deal with my horse (and given he had seen him being worked all day he would have a fair idea of what he was like), he would not give me a direct answer. I really respected MR up until that point.

 

[Grumpy Jewel]

My horse was a demo horse for not loading. She doesn't do anything exciting, but just sits at the bottom of the ramp and refuses to move other than occasionally flick flack side to side. The demo went great and she did her best to resist going up the ramp but gave in in the end and was strolling up and down without a care in the world, even with the cricket club fireworks going off behind the lorry. It seems to be a trend then as she refused to come home at 11.30 pm and was rounded up using fence paneling too. Their attitude was just get in and go home, none of the approach from the actual demo. Fast forward to now, and she will load fine if with another, but will knob about if on her own. Not sure if we gained anything from the whole day, but I don't think it did any harm.

 

[Sparkly Snowdrop]

At the demo I went to this year all the bad loaders were loaded in the arena at the end of the night, with Kelly and the RA's assisting and teaching the owners. I wonder if they have changed to doing this now?

 

[Brightbay]

I wonder what you think you'll get from putting your horse in a demo situation that you wouldn't get by getting an experienced behaviourist to come and work with you at home, doing it at the horse's pace in a non stressful situation?

Just genuinely curious as to what people's reasons would be?

 

[Grumpy Jewel]

I had tried many approaches at home and thought with the help of people who deal with difficult loaders regularly it would be good to see a different approach. During the demo i didnt actually get to work with my horse, the ra's did while another ra explained what was happening while Kelly marks was talking to everyone watching. That was disappointing as that was the whole point of going. Our trip was very last moment, ie, I enquired after seeing an ad on the tues and the demo was Saturday, so didn't really ask as many questions as I should have!

 

[tankgirl1]

My horse was a demo horse for not loading. She doesn't do anything exciting, but just sits at the bottom of the ramp and refuses to move other than occasionally flick flack side to side. The demo went great and she did her best to resist going up the ramp but gave in in the end and was strolling up and down without a care in the world, even with the cricket club fireworks going off behind the lorry. It seems to be a trend then as she refused to come home at 11.30 pm and was rounded up using fence paneling too. Their attitude was just get in and go home, none of the approach from the actual demo. Fast forward to now, and she will load fine if with another, but will knob about if on her own. Not sure if we gained anything from the whole day, but I don't think it did any harm.

Was that at Reaseheath this year? Tis the mention of fireworks that got me thinking lol

 

[foraday]

Get Richard Maxwell out!

The trouble is with these 'demo's that MR does he wants bad and I mean BAD horses so it looks great when they achieve the desired result!

At the end of the demo you are told by Kelly you can send your horse to my place in Berkshire which will cost you £WONGA! Oh and then at the end of the andrex roll bill we will get you to turn up and show your horse loads/rides (only with our special saddle) etc etc

And off you go!

Pay for Max to come out and HE WILL TRAIN YOU AND YOUR HORSE! Money well spent! He has got some facebook offers on!

 

[Grumpy Jewel]

Tankgirl1, no it was Plumpton about 4 yrs ago. They had a cancellation of a demo horse hence the last minute panic to find a replacement.

 

[lastchancer]

Why don't you get an RA out to show you the methods they use? then you can practise at your leisure rather than having to put pressure on both your horse and yourself in a demo environment. You might get more out of it that way and it'd be less stressful.

 

[MarinaBay]

My mare was used at a demo a few years ago. I applied, they called and offered me a place it took me 2.5 hours to load her to get her there. One of the students does some join up with them - that's it. My mare was used at the start for leading issues - which she doesn't have she has very good manners! The loading is at the end - it took 10mins then she was trotting on and off the huge lorry quite happily. They then helped me get her in the trailer to come home. Fine. Unfortunately my mare then passed out in the trailer on the way home - I pulled into the yard and she was on the floor of the trailer.
I'd really recommend Robert Leese he has worked wonders on my mare helped me so she will comfortably load onto a box - then assessed her in the trailer - she threw herself on the floor in a panic attack state! Vet to confirm all ok - and said its like a panic attack / passing out! Anyway if you are looking for help rob is fantastic and will really help you - I'd be nowhere near a box if it wasn't for him! As for the methods from monty / Kelly I don't use them at all - my mares to clever!

 

[Kelly Marks]

Hi
I hope it’s OK if I give some facts re. Monty’s demo because I know it’s human nature to find negative things more interesting and might be less inclined to think ‘I wonder what’s the other side to this’. First of all, if anyone has ever felt that they haven’t had a good ‘deal’ from us at a demonstration I really am sorry. We work all the time to give everyone the best experience. Do be aware there is no cost to the owner to bring a horse to the demonstration (except their own transport) and they are given to free tickets for the evening.

We don’t insist on ‘impossible’ horses – horses that are seriously claustrophobic in a horsebox for instance need long term help. We want a horse that is ‘reasonably tricky’ so it’s enough to educate the audience to see different techniques you can use. I think actually the most important thing Monty shows is his ‘attitude’ – an awful lot of people get very stressed and upset when things aren’t going to plan with their horse and they take inspiration from watching Monty just staying calm.

Some horses load on the evening and the owners ‘get it’ and I get lovely emails (I’ll put at the bottom of this post). Some horses and owners you know are going to need more time. Someone wrote ‘At the end of the demo you are told by Kelly you can send your horse to my place in Berkshire which will cost you £WONGA!’ This isn’t true because I only have my private horses at home in Berkshire (Pie, Harry, Corky, George and Herbie - You can follow them on ‘Kelly Marks and Intelligent Horsemanship’ on facebook ).
What I will tell owners is that if they would like their horse to have two days of loading practise for FREE and their owner can attend to course for FREE we have Loading the Less Easy Horses courses in Witney, Oxfordshire during the year and they can bring their horse to that so long as they are happy for their horses to be trained by the up and coming students.

I think a lot of people recognise that we sincerely try to do a good job. Are we perfect – I’m sure we’re not! I feel bad that someone says that I watched them try to load their horse one day and I watched but didn’t help. It must have been a fair time ago because Ian Vandenberghe hasn’t come on the demos for several years. I can bet if I did this it was because I was in a quandary about whether it puts pressure on the owner if I start taking over the horse. Anyone can always ask me to help and I’d be delighted – I’d always much rather to do it myself but I try and stop myself as there comes a point the owner needs to learn the technique.

For me one of the most difficult things about loading horses at demonstrations is we either use my horsebox or find a nice big trailer suitable for the horses side and then at the end of the evening it is not unusual to be expected to put the horse into a vehicle that is just too small. People can get really offended if you suggest that perhaps it would be better if the horse didn’t have to dip his head down so much to get in the trailer, plus the ramp isn’t meant to squeeze his quarters – and have they ever though that using an iron rod as a breast bar possibly isn’t all that comfortable for the horse when they brake?

God forbid you ever suggest to some people they could drive a bit slower. And so I guess you can offend some people. Then just when you think ‘am I doing any good for horses at all?’ (Because you can say what you like I know I got into this because I adore horses – and you all must know you don’t choose to work with horses if money is your main aim in life) anyway just when you think you’re wasting your time you meet the most wonderful people with wonderful horses and you get various wonderful emails coming through and you think ‘I wouldn’t change my life for anything!’

P.S. I’ll probably bow out here because we all know how this thread will progress with the same people coming on saying the same things – with a few ‘I haven’t had time to read this thread but have you tried micronized linseed?’ for good measure
Anyway here’s to a great 2013 for all of us – Kelly Marks and Intelligent Horsemansip
No enquiry, just a big thank you. You helped me get my horse to load 2 years ago at Myerscough college demo. I'd never been able to box him to a show before in the 5 years I'd had him and was always worried in case he ever needed to be boxed to the vets. This year we have won 2 x reserve champs in showing/WH and 1 championship in SJ. We also were placed 5th and 6th in the north-west WH and SJ championships. Without your help I would never have been to a show, or have been able to take him XC which we both love. He now even boxes in the dark! Thanks very much Helena and Chancer
> Hi Kelly and the wonderful team at IH
>
> Just wanted to say thank you all massively for all of your help with Merlin, from first speaking to Linda (who was lovely and very reassuring) then the demonstration then bringing Merlin to the leading at loading course -he is a changed pony.
>
> You all worked so hard with him, we have successfully loaded him four times and taken him to a show where I dreaded loading him on the way back, he walked straight up the ramp and traveled back perfectly!
>
> Also a huge thank you to the students at the leading and loading course that showed me how To use the Dually, it's amazing, Merlin responds really well to it, we have been doing lots of desensitising with plastic bags, tarpaulin and lots more wavy scary things, no more walking backwards or pulling back when I am leading him.
>
> Today I confidently booked our ferry to move to Germany with the horses, I think that without the help of Kelly and Intellegent horsemanship we may not have been able to take Merlin with us.
>
> Huge huge thank you all very much I have two very happy little girls!
>
> I will keep in contact with progress stories
>
> Kind regards
>
> Nicole Gillard
Hi Kelly,

I just wanted to say a massive thank you from myself and Kayleigh for making us feel so welcome on Saturday. The whole IH team are amazing and so friendly. The day was a fantastic experience for both of us and little Cricket and we are very grateful for him being included in the demonstration. The work Monty did with the head shy horse was simple amazing and of great interest to us as obviously we have several head shy horses, especially the ones that have been ear notched.

As we discussed Saturday night we will put together some information about some of longer term residents that we have struggled to make much progress with in the hope that there may be some future work we could do with yourself and Monty.

Thank you again,

Sarah.


SARAH HOLLISTER
HUSBANDRY GROOM
HorseWorld Trust

As discussed, just wondered if it was possible to get hold of a copy of the dvd of the Keysoe as I took my horse Rocky as a bad loader and was so much to take in on the day, just wanted to be able to refer back to what Kelly did with Rocky. As you know, have just registered as a member so if you know whether that particular demo might be on the site, then I can look at it that way but would be nice to have a copy.
Also would you please send on my sincere thanks to all who helped me, especially Kelly, Linda and Julia Fisher. Feel really inspired and actually managed to get Rocky to walk over some poles on the Sunday which was a miracle. I will definitely get in touch with Julia who is local to me to follow up with some ground floor sessions.
Many thanks and even think Rocky enjoyed the day.
Kind regards
Donna

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

He can have my horse!!!

 

[M_G]

Haven't read all of the replies, have you tried all the usual like feeding in the box every night, loading & just going round the block, loading and then unloading ect? I only say as I have known a few people have great success with the above, it wasn't a quick fix by any means but horses still load beautifully years later. Good luck with whatever you decide

 

[Pearlsasinger]

IMO, if you are convinced that there is a problem which the horse is trying to tell you about, you don't need someone who will persuade your horse to load, you need to find out what the problem is. Have you tried loading into a different trailer or into a lorry? That would be the route I'd take. I'm a firm believer in listening to the horse.

 

[ridefast]

What do you do when you load your horse? It could be that perhaps something upset him to trigger it, but now your body language is saying to him it's scary? Do you turn to face him, look him in the eye? My little pony used to take 3 hours to load, we had someone out (I think she was an RA, but she's not anymore) she got him in after 10 mins of ground work, simple backing up, walking forward, moving side to side. He isn't perfect now but so long as there is no rush or panic and everyone is relaxed he is not trouble, I just always have a long rope, walk on to the trailer, wait and don't look at him, keep my body relaxed and inviting and he comes straight on

 

[SusieT]

interesting attitude there kelly, so the ones whose horses still didn't load when the fence panels and dually weren't involved are obviously these ones ' For me one of the most difficult things about loading horses at demonstrations is we either use my horsebox or find a nice big trailer suitable for the horses side and then at the end of the evening it is not unusual to be expected to put the horse into a vehicle that is just too small. People can get really offended if you suggest that perhaps it would be better if the horse didn’t have to dip his head down so much to get in the trailer, plus the ramp isn’t meant to squeeze his quarters – and have they ever though that using an iron rod as a breast bar possibly isn’t all that comfortable for the horse when they brake?'

i.e the ones who are bad horse owners anyway so sod them? only the 'enlightened' horse owners will get the full benefit etc? I think most owners would understand you saying that more than 'bye now' which is the impression I get from the post...

 

[horsesatemymoney]

Thanks Susie T I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought the response from KM a bit odd. Sarcastic comment about the linseed , plus posting people's comments on here (I wonder if you've asked them) and the information others have posted on here about their experiences with you mean I'm a tad disappointed tbh

 

[debsg]

Kelly - I think you're damned if you DO comment and damned if you don't
Not going to bother myself, this thread will go the way it always does...............

 

[amandap]

I think actually the most important thing Monty shows is his ‘attitude’ – an awful lot of people get very stressed and upset when things aren’t going to plan with their horse and they take inspiration from watching Monty just staying calm.

I've highlighted the point I think is possibly the most important. I'm certainly no expert but when I read threads like this http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=583195
I am reminded how important attitude is.

Btw, micronised linseed should be very good for loading in tight spaces, it makes their coats lovely and glossy.

 

[Kelly Marks]

Debg - you're so right - and don't EVER use humour! Actually though you learn more by criticism than by praise and by taking on board comments I'm going to be so b****y good at communicating one of these days I'll amaze myself! x


Susie T - I'm sorry you get the impression we say 'bye now' if the trailer/whatever isn't suitable for the horse - because that certainly isn't the case. We explain the situation but some people answer 'well this all I can afford so he has to travel with his neck bent sideways/whatever'. I used to find this really embarrassing because it made me feel I was making a judgement against people who couldn't afford a big trailer or lorry.

Then there's the moral dilemma - are we really helping horses by encouraging owners to squeeze them into, often unsafe, forms of transport? Then I remember my first pony Seamus 13 hh - and how proud we were when we bought this little trailer and painted it all up. The thing is he wouldn't load into it- because he clearly found it terrifying to go in. So did we force him in? No, we sold the trailer and we would hire Mr Hazel and his cattle lorry for the 10 times a year we wanted to go somewhere and Seamus was always perfectly happy to go in the lorry.

There's a lot of concern nowadays that an 'entitlement society' has been created. I'm sure many people who come on here understand that owning a horse is not a 'right' but an enormous privilege. All my present horses load and travel very happily because it's a comfortable place for them. If it's not a happy place then you are never going to have a truly good loader.

If anyone wants to add to this checklist for happy travelling feel free - but a couple of interesting things I have seen that contributed to unhappy travelling/loading included a broken exhaust that sent fumes into where the horses were, horses being frightened by branches on trees on side and windows, rotten floorboards ready to break, breastbars hurting, suspension on lorry giving terrible ride in back - then of course, physical problems including arthritic issues in hocks and so on, kissing spine, laminitis too will make a horse uncomfortable to travel. These things are not 'just common sense' as people frequently like to say - they are often missed. We have a veterinary qualified physiotherapist to check all the horses before a demonstration (free to the owner) is she guaranteed to find out if a horse has a physical problem? Only within reason -but if we can start owners considering these issues when they get home with the horse it can really help them both a lot.

Must go - horses to muck out and get in!

 

[SusieT]

so you're saying that all the horses that won't load at the end of the night are because they are in unsuitable vehicles-not that the demo doesn't really address the problems or give the owners long lasting solutions? (not many of us have fence panels and assistants on hand...) The point i'm making is that I don't really see the point of you saying well yes but x, y, z is the reason when obviously owners above have not had that discussion with you or their box has been suitable but the demo hasn't helped-it is rather aggressively defensive to attack others in that way which normally suggests an underlying issue..