Monty Roberts demo horses

I'm now even more confused, since I wondered about the benefits of training a horse to load in a pressurised situation in the first place... and now it seems as though many of the loading issues would have been better dealt with by a short visit where the trailer was checked for size and a few tips given on better driving :confused:
 
I think part of the reason my lovely decided not to load on the way home was that she had simply had enough. She'd been boxed somewhere new, been exposed to different sights and sounds while her assessment went on then been used in the demo obviously sensing the audience and everything that goes with it, but while working with the ra loaded in and out quite happily. I think a huge part of loading issues are picked up by horses reading owners senses, be it frustration, anger, irritation the list is endless. All the ra's where so calm throughout the day, even at nearly midnight when she was being a diva again.
 
SusieT said:
so you're saying that all the horses that won't load at the end of the night are because they are in unsuitable vehicles-not that the demo doesn't really address the problems or give the owners long lasting solutions? (not many of us have fence panels and assistants on hand...) The point i'm making is that I don't really see the point of you saying well yes but x, y, z is the reason when obviously owners above have not had that discussion with you or their box has been suitable but the demo hasn't helped-it is rather aggressively defensive to attack others in that way which normally suggests an underlying issue..
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I would imagine what Km might be trying to say is that there are many reasons why an approach might not work on a horse and on occasion it has been obvious to her that the vehicle itself is unsuitable and it has embarrassed her to say so. She makes it pretty clear that there can be a multitude of reasons so I honestly do not understand your opening line. It is obvious to me that she isn't saying that at all....

I have no affiliation to KM or Heather Moffet but it does amaze me when people immediately try to pick holes in every single thing they say. I have seen it happen time and time again.

Then again, they are miracle workers aren't they? And regularly purport to have magical powers..... :rolleyes:
 
I don't actually see the point of taking a horse to a demo if the outcome is negative. Surely if your not helped to load the horse yourself afterwards and shown what your doing wrong it's a waste of the owners time and not helping the horse which is what I thought the point was.
 
Brightbay said:
I'm now even more confused, since I wondered about the benefits of training a horse to load in a pressurised situation in the first place... and now it seems as though many of the loading issues would have been better dealt with by a short visit where the trailer was checked for size and a few tips given on better driving :confused:
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:confused: I think the point is that sometimes those aspects aren't considered.
I watched a donkey being loaded a couple of years ago and his ears had to be squashed down to get him into the low trailer.

Hopefully someone will answer your earlier question about why they put a horse forward for a demo.

ps. I've also followed trailers with horses on board going at 50/60 on bendy country roads.
 
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Pearlsacarolsinger said:
IMO, if you are convinced that there is a problem which the horse is trying to tell you about, you don't need someone who will persuade your horse to load, you need to find out what the problem is. Have you tried loading into a different trailer or into a lorry? That would be the route I'd take. I'm a firm believer in listening to the horse.
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My (neurotic) old boy refused point black to load once, luckily we were just moving fields so my partner drove the lorry with my little cob on and I led the hooligan. Got to the field and the mares hoof had gone through the floor, luckily she hadn't hurt herself and had enough about her to avoid the gap. Had they both been on it would almost certainly have been disastrous.
 
M_G said:
Haven't read all of the replies, have you tried all the usual like feeding in the box every night, loading & just going round the block, loading and then unloading ect? I only say as I have known a few people have great success with the above, it wasn't a quick fix by any means but horses still load beautifully years later. Good luck with whatever you decide
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horsesatemychristmasmoney said:
Thanks Susie T I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought the response from KM a bit odd. Sarcastic comment about the linseed , plus posting people's comments on here (I wonder if you've asked them) and the information others have posted on here about their experiences with you mean I'm a tad disappointed tbh
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i had to chuckle at KMs first post then the one directly above.. lol

now im not a km fan, but having taken a horse to a demo, and watched a few and dealt with various bad loaders, i have to say i do agree with what KM says about the state of some peoples driving/transport.

I know its illegal, but my x husband used to drive a lorry and trailer far to fast and his breaking used to make me cringe, feck nos what it done to a horse, may be if possible and you have a bad loader and can do a SHORT trip get in the back of said transport and see what you horse is hearing/feeling.

*awaits a stoning for suggestion such a illegal activity. *:D
 
Will also ditto what has been said about horses loading in a MR demo, then not loading and no one helping. I say this with no axe to grind - we were at Y H Live doing our own thing a few years ago- and both ourselves and friends who we worked with witnessed the so called 'cured' bad loader not going anywhere near the trailer.
The biggest 'beef' I have with MR and his 'associates is that the promise is implied if not given that their methods are
better
going to work
be easy to apply
This is patently not true. I can also say we went o teach a horse to load after an IH associate failed - all she could do was to bring the metal gates closer , and when that didnt work she threw up her hands and left.
Its never an easy proposition teaching a bad loader- its never going to be cured in one session ,if the habit is really ingrained.
The OP with a horse good for 7 years then not loading - interesting case, but please dont be a demo- demos are for the egos of the 'big name' - and horse's real needs are forgotten if the 'show' is more important.
 
Are people honestly watching these shows and demos thinking that the horse that wouldn't load - that has loaded before their very eyes is now cured? This tells me far more about the audience than the demonstrator!

I think the demo is showing that there is a fairly calm approach that can get this horse to load. At what point has anyone watched a demo and heard MR or any of the others say 'ta daaaah - this horse is cured, it will load forever more!'. The demo is about displaying a method surely? It is up to the owner to learn from, seek further teaching and perfect this method if it is one that works for their animal.

It sounds like some of you would pick a fight in an empty room :)
 
Agree bb. However this is exactly why I'd never take my horses to a demo. It's rarely the horse that needs teaching but the owner, or both. It's pointless to correct one behaviour and not both.
 
BillieBlitzen said:
Are people honestly watching these shows and demos thinking that the horse that wouldn't load - that has loaded before their very eyes is now cured? This tells me far more about the audience than the demonstrator!

I think the demo is showing that there is a fairly calm approach that can get this horse to load. At what point has anyone watched a demo and heard MR or any of the others say 'ta daaaah - this horse is cured, it will load forever more!'. The demo is about displaying a method surely? It is up to the owner to learn from, seek further teaching and perfect this method if it is one that works for their animal.

It sounds like some of you would pick a fight in an empty room :)
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I agree. If you think your horse is going to be cured of it's loading issues by attending a demo, think again!

A demo is just that, a demonstration of a way to work with horses, not a magic cure.

I think you will find that now, following a demo, the owners will be given the contact details of an Intelligent Horsemanship Recommended Associate, so they can get further help or at least be told that this is available either at the venue or on the website.
 
Applecart if you are in touch with instructors who are using brooms etc then I'm worried about how you're finding these people! I'd research a good local instructor and be there to learn. If mention of broom etc then say no! Personally I think that lunge lines can be very useful if used properly but certainly wouldnt be happy with an instructor getting a good load trained using them
 
Laafet said:
What will happen is that they invite you along to leave you horse at the centre all day while a colleague of Monty will 'work' you horse in the round pen, .
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This does not happen.

The owners and horses arrive at the venue during the afternoon. The horses are brought into the pen to asses soundness and suitability for the evening demo, with the owners present. The only horses that may be 'worked' will be the ones not chosen to be used in the actual demo!
 
BillieBlitzen said:
Are people honestly watching these shows and demos thinking that the horse that wouldn't load - that has loaded before their very eyes is now cured? This tells me far more about the audience than the demonstrator!

I think the demo is showing that there is a fairly calm approach that can get this horse to load. At what point has anyone watched a demo and heard MR or any of the others say 'ta daaaah - this horse is cured, it will load forever more!'. The demo is about displaying a method surely? It is up to the owner to learn from, seek further teaching and perfect this method if it is one that works for their animal.

It sounds like some of you would pick a fight in an empty room :)
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The owners are saying after the demos they weren't shown or helped to loaded the horses like they were loaded in the demo. Not that they were cured but they were basically left and not even given advice, so they say.
 
Kayristmas said:
The owners are saying after the demos they weren't shown or helped to loaded the horses like they were loaded in the demo. Not that they were cured but they were basically left and not even given advice, so they say.
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Having been to many demos and watched kelly and the RAs still working at midnight to try and help owners I know for a fact this isnt true - and guess that these people simply have an axe to grind due to their own failings.

Whether those failings be inappropriate trailers, their attitude etc - for whatever reason the demo didnt provide a magic wand to fix their problems - if thats what they expect theyre muppets frankly.

I have a huge amount of respect for both Kelly and Monty and wish them both well for the future. :)
 
Hang on. My account is factual. No axe to grind at all. I have seen monty twice and don't doubt that he could've got the mare on the trailer. He's a fantastic showman and was charming when I met him and he obviously has an enviable way with horses. Ultimately though the sight of my friend crying and her mate refusing to load and no one from the demo offering help until I went and sought it stank of the demo having used the horse and there being no follow up/aftercare.

How much better to offer a demo package for bad loaders with a designated RA for the day and perhaps a couple of complimentary sessions.
 
Partridg3 said:
Hang on. My account is factual. No axe to grind at all. I have seen monty twice and don't doubt that he could've got the mare on the trailer. He's a fantastic showman and was charming when I met him and he obviously has an enviable way with horses. Ultimately though the sight of my friend crying and her mate refusing to load and no one from the demo offering help until I went and sought it stank of the demo having used the horse and there being no follow up/aftercare.

How much better to offer a demo package for bad loaders with a designated RA for the day and perhaps a couple of complimentary sessions.
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Do you not think that the professionals have to tread a very fine line of not stepping on toes and/ offending people?! Or that there are other horses and owners and demo makers and audience members all demanding attention?

Good grief - you can't do right for trying for some.
 
PandorasJar said:
Applecart if you are in touch with instructors who are using brooms etc then I'm worried about how you're finding these people! I'd research a good local instructor and be there to learn. If mention of broom etc then say no! Personally I think that lunge lines can be very useful if used properly but certainly wouldnt be happy with an instructor getting a good load trained using them
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Flipping heck I didn't say I was in touch with instructors who are using brooms you condescending little person! I said I did not want to end up with someone like that. How dare you assume that. Don't take the words out of my mouth and twist them, I have had quite enough of that lately thank you.

And your comment about owners need to change too. I do not believe that after seven and a half years of him practically loading himself I am loading my horse any differently to how I have always done. I am willing to change, but to change what???
 
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Brightbay said:
I wonder what you think you'll get from putting your horse in a demo situation that you wouldn't get by getting an experienced behaviourist to come and work with you at home, doing it at the horse's pace in a non stressful situation?

Just genuinely curious as to what people's reasons would be?
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Price. I am losing my job soon. I can't afford to pay mega bucks to have someone come out to me. My friend had Richard Maxwell come out to her for half a day and it cost something like £300 +. Was thinking a demo at my local riding club (where I was a member for 15 years) might be a better bet. Able to hack home the following day if it doesn't work too.
 
Kelly Marks said:
Hi
I hope it’s OK if I give some facts re. Monty’s demo because I know it’s human nature to find negative things more interesting and might be less inclined to think ‘I wonder what’s the other side to this’. First of all, if anyone has ever felt that they haven’t had a good ‘deal’ from us at a demonstration I really am sorry. We work all the time to give everyone the best experience. Do be aware there is no cost to the owner to bring a horse to the demonstration (except their own transport) and they are given to free tickets for the evening.

We don’t insist on ‘impossible’ horses – horses that are seriously claustrophobic in a horsebox for instance need long term help. We want a horse that is ‘reasonably tricky’ so it’s enough to educate the audience to see different techniques you can use. I think actually the most important thing Monty shows is his ‘attitude’ – an awful lot of people get very stressed and upset when things aren’t going to plan with their horse and they take inspiration from watching Monty just staying calm.

Some horses load on the evening and the owners ‘get it’ and I get lovely emails (I’ll put at the bottom of this post). Some horses and owners you know are going to need more time. Someone wrote ‘At the end of the demo you are told by Kelly you can send your horse to my place in Berkshire which will cost you £WONGA!’ This isn’t true because I only have my private horses at home in Berkshire (Pie, Harry, Corky, George and Herbie - You can follow them on ‘Kelly Marks and Intelligent Horsemanship’ on facebook ).
What I will tell owners is that if they would like their horse to have two days of loading practise for FREE and their owner can attend to course for FREE we have Loading the Less Easy Horses courses in Witney, Oxfordshire during the year and they can bring their horse to that so long as they are happy for their horses to be trained by the up and coming students.

I think a lot of people recognise that we sincerely try to do a good job. Are we perfect – I’m sure we’re not! I feel bad that someone says that I watched them try to load their horse one day and I watched but didn’t help. It must have been a fair time ago because Ian Vandenberghe hasn’t come on the demos for several years. I can bet if I did this it was because I was in a quandary about whether it puts pressure on the owner if I start taking over the horse. Anyone can always ask me to help and I’d be delighted – I’d always much rather to do it myself but I try and stop myself as there comes a point the owner needs to learn the technique.

For me one of the most difficult things about loading horses at demonstrations is we either use my horsebox or find a nice big trailer suitable for the horses side and then at the end of the evening it is not unusual to be expected to put the horse into a vehicle that is just too small. People can get really offended if you suggest that perhaps it would be better if the horse didn’t have to dip his head down so much to get in the trailer, plus the ramp isn’t meant to squeeze his quarters – and have they ever though that using an iron rod as a breast bar possibly isn’t all that comfortable for the horse when they brake?

God forbid you ever suggest to some people they could drive a bit slower. And so I guess you can offend some people. Then just when you think ‘am I doing any good for horses at all?’ (Because you can say what you like I know I got into this because I adore horses – and you all must know you don’t choose to work with horses if money is your main aim in life) anyway just when you think you’re wasting your time you meet the most wonderful people with wonderful horses and you get various wonderful emails coming through and you think ‘I wouldn’t change my life for anything!’

P.S. I’ll probably bow out here because we all know how this thread will progress with the same people coming on saying the same things – with a few ‘I haven’t had time to read this thread but have you tried micronized linseed?’ for good measure ;)
Anyway here’s to a great 2013 for all of us – Kelly Marks and Intelligent Horsemansip
No enquiry, just a big thank you. You helped me get my horse to load 2 years ago at Myerscough college demo. I'd never been able to box him to a show before in the 5 years I'd had him and was always worried in case he ever needed to be boxed to the vets. This year we have won 2 x reserve champs in showing/WH and 1 championship in SJ. We also were placed 5th and 6th in the north-west WH and SJ championships. Without your help I would never have been to a show, or have been able to take him XC which we both love. He now even boxes in the dark! Thanks very much Helena and Chancer
> Hi Kelly and the wonderful team at IH
>
> Just wanted to say thank you all massively for all of your help with Merlin, from first speaking to Linda (who was lovely and very reassuring) then the demonstration then bringing Merlin to the leading at loading course -he is a changed pony.
>
> You all worked so hard with him, we have successfully loaded him four times and taken him to a show where I dreaded loading him on the way back, he walked straight up the ramp and traveled back perfectly!
>
> Also a huge thank you to the students at the leading and loading course that showed me how To use the Dually, it's amazing, Merlin responds really well to it, we have been doing lots of desensitising with plastic bags, tarpaulin and lots more wavy scary things, no more walking backwards or pulling back when I am leading him.
>
> Today I confidently booked our ferry to move to Germany with the horses, I think that without the help of Kelly and Intellegent horsemanship we may not have been able to take Merlin with us.
>
> Huge huge thank you all very much I have two very happy little girls!
>
> I will keep in contact with progress stories
>
> Kind regards
>
> Nicole Gillard
Hi Kelly,

I just wanted to say a massive thank you from myself and Kayleigh for making us feel so welcome on Saturday. The whole IH team are amazing and so friendly. The day was a fantastic experience for both of us and little Cricket and we are very grateful for him being included in the demonstration. The work Monty did with the head shy horse was simple amazing and of great interest to us as obviously we have several head shy horses, especially the ones that have been ear notched.

As we discussed Saturday night we will put together some information about some of longer term residents that we have struggled to make much progress with in the hope that there may be some future work we could do with yourself and Monty.

Thank you again,

Sarah.


SARAH HOLLISTER
HUSBANDRY GROOM
HorseWorld Trust

As discussed, just wondered if it was possible to get hold of a copy of the dvd of the Keysoe as I took my horse Rocky as a bad loader and was so much to take in on the day, just wanted to be able to refer back to what Kelly did with Rocky. As you know, have just registered as a member so if you know whether that particular demo might be on the site, then I can look at it that way but would be nice to have a copy.
Also would you please send on my sincere thanks to all who helped me, especially Kelly, Linda and Julia Fisher. Feel really inspired and actually managed to get Rocky to walk over some poles on the Sunday which was a miracle. I will definitely get in touch with Julia who is local to me to follow up with some ground floor sessions.
Many thanks and even think Rocky enjoyed the day.
Kind regards
Donna
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Thanks Kelly for taking the time/trouble to reply.Loved the bit about the micronized linseed!!!!!!
 
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