Monty Roberts - does anyone know why??

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Tory27

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Bit of a random question but I’m curious as to whether anyone knows the 'why' to a ‘No No’ in Monty’s rule of horseman ship.

Whilst watching one of his programmes on Horse and Country (he was starting a young horse) he started to long rein the horse whilst on the lunge. When doing this he said …

“Lunging without the long rein is the top 3 of my big no’s with horses, lunging with one line is not acceptable because the horse is not symmetrical – fine, I understand that.

My biggest no is to strike a horse, horses should never be struck – Yep, fine understand that one too.

The 3rd biggest no no is feeding a horse from the hand – This one I don’t understand? Can anyone shed the light on why Monty doesn’t like / or feels it’s not acceptable to feed a horse from the hand?”

I’m sure I’m one of 100’s who feed their horses from the hand, polo’s, apples, carrots…..
Its what we do, isn’t it?? Or shouldn’t we??
 
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I dont know why it is a 'no no' in monty's book, but I never feed mine from the hand. The thing I detest most in horses is bad manners - mugging people for treats being my main bug bear.
I know people who give their horses treats for managing to successfully walk out to the field. These are the horses who are rude around the gate, and barge and shove when you handle them.
Yes there are exceptions to the rule, and times when I'm sure a treat is a good idea, but for me, I just don't do it.
 
Tory27 said:
I’m sure I’m one of 100’s who feed their horses from the hand, polo’s, apples, carrots…..
Its what we do, isn’t it?? Or shouldn’t we??
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Not feeding from the hand avoids creating unwanted behaviours inadvertently - something that can easily happen if someone isn't mindful of what they are doing. It's easier just to say point blank it's a no-no, than to ensure the necessary awareness is in place first. That's my take on it anyway.
 
Not sure about monty but I know most folk don't feed by hand to discourage mugging behaviour.

I only feed my loan pony by hand when catching him in the field as without that carrot I could spend hours chasing the little blighter.
 
Tory27 said:
Bit of a random question but I’m curious as to whether anyone knows the 'why' to a ‘No No’ in Monty’s rule of horseman ship.

Whilst watching one of his programmes on Horse and Country (he was starting a young horse) he started to long rein the horse whilst on the lunge. When doing this he said …

“Lunging without the long rein is the top 3 of my big no’s with horses, lunging with one line is not acceptable because the horse is not symmetrical – fine, I understand that.

My biggest no is to strike a horse, horses should never be struck – Yep, fine understand that one too.

The 3rd biggest no no is feeding a horse from the hand – This one I don’t understand? Can anyone shed the light on why Monty doesn’t like / or feels it’s not acceptable to feed a horse from the hand?”

I’m sure I’m one of 100’s who feed their horses from the hand, polo’s, apples, carrots…..
Its what we do, isn’t it?? Or shouldn’t we??
Click to expand...

Monty doesn't agree with feeding from the hand because he says it encourages / causes biting. He has spent some time with clicker trainers and has afterwards said that okay it might work for some trainers if used in a specific way, but he personally doesn't recommend it.

I never feed from the hand and had already stopped before hearing of Monty, because my cob was spoilt by his previous owner and it doesn't take much to make him bargy and rude. Instead if I give him a treat I ask him to take a step back and turn his head away (from a verbal command) and then put the treat on the ground in front of him before stepping back to allow him to take it.
 
I have never fed a horse from the hand and any I have met whose owners do so have been rude, bargy, nippy or worse, focussed on the treat not the handler and generally pains in the ar8se. Horses don't give each other treats, and neither do I.
 
One of the best horseman I ever met fed his horses by hand.He was a horse driver.Once they had finished their work and were unhitched and untacked they were given 1 carrot each before returning to their stables.They were some of the best mannered horses I ever met.
 
I feed by hand. If I had one that was bargy, pushy, or showed signs of nipping, then I wouldn't. I only treat in specific circumstances, and they get told off if they show any signs of trying to mug me/anyone else for food.
 
the reason MR advises against feeding from the hand (and which I wholeheartedly agree with) is because horses are trickle feeders and are not rewarded for hunting for their food like a wolf, fox or dog and that psychologically horses do not equate doing well (ie hunting for food) with the reward.
I can't bear seeing horses barely finishing from a course, or even a xc course, puffing away having polos shoved down them.
What people do is up to them but you know exactly who feeds titbits when you stand next to a horse for two seconds.
 
theory wise do horses never see food as a reward then. If something tastes nice = pleasure = reward surely? Rather than the concept of food itself.
 
Depends on the horse, have had same routine for 9 years, treat when catch, treat when turn out & treat when she's worked hard or stood patiently. She has never once mugged anyone for food, is also polite with her food bowl.
 
I also do it for carrot stretches, and for my fidgety mare when I get on. But she's not bitey or bargy. I don't do it for my new boy as he is a bit nippy and I'm working on his behaviour on the ground. I think he would get worse if I hand fed or gave him treats. Don't know what MRs views are on it though.
 
ester said:
theory wise do horses never see food as a reward then. If something tastes nice = pleasure = reward surely? Rather than the concept of food itself.
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I would think so-I don't do it routinely but I have used it for my young horse. He had a fright when I was catching him one day in the winter. I then couldnt catch him.
I used fibre nuggets as a reward for a target training with the headcollar. I am by myself, I have to chose my battles-had the horse caught up in 15 mins in a 35 acre field (and no, rattling a bucket of nuts hadn't worked previously, neither had catching up everything else-horse was worried, not being naughty)I havent had an issue since and I am no longer 'treating' him when caught. Wouldn't hesitate to use it again.

also use food for stretches.
 
I think it makes sense, horses do not hunt and expend huge amounts of short burst energy for food, as a hunting wolf or other predator does.
It's not up to me to tell you whether to do it or not. Same with lungeing, some methods suit some horses/people.
If you read his book it will give you much better detail of his beliefs, and his observations.
Yes, some of the showjumpers do stick polos down their horses (or their grooms do), maybe it makes up for not always patting them!
 
It's a bit of a sweeping assumption that you are the owner of rude horses because you feed from the hand!

Having dealt with numerous rude and bargy horses I can assure you that mine aren't and that's despite getting the occassional carrot...

My horses know not to mug so don't. If required they can/will back up and wait for the "ok" before eating their feed and/or treat.

The reason for bargy rude horses is the owner/regular handler not an occassional treat. If horses, clicker trained or not, are mugging you for treats then you've done something wrong!
 
The original poster asked why MR advocates not feeding horses titbits, which I tried to explain.
No I don't think the odd carrot from the hand causes horses to become rude and bargey.
I do think the random feeding of sugar sweets often does not make sense.
End of.
 
I never feed by hand as I also cant bare horses who mug. Infact I dont do treats at all. There may be some horses who get fed treats and keep there manners but they are few and far between. As previously said you can usually tell within seconds the ones fed by hand.
 
Ancient Monument said:
the reason MR advises against feeding from the hand (and which I wholeheartedly agree with) is because horses are trickle feeders and are not rewarded for hunting for their food like a wolf, fox or dog and that psychologically horses do not equate doing well (ie hunting for food) with the reward.
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Nevertheless it works! I hope that MR's more recent experiences with clicker training will have shown him what is possible when rewards are used in a targeted way.

As a general point, why should we be constrained to only doing things to horses that they would experience in a human-free life? Horses communicate and influence each others' actions by kicking and biting. That doesn't mean we need to do that ourselves.
 
Ancient Monument said:
I think it makes sense, horses do not hunt and expend huge amounts of short burst energy for food, as a hunting wolf or other predator does.
Click to expand...
I know that, as you said before, but that is limiting the concept of why food might work as a positive reinforcer for those who choose to use it as such and I think quite a close minded view on the biology of behaviour.
I don't like horses that rummage in pockets, we have some of those on the yard and apart from post work stretching any hand fed food occurs very randomly (usually when I have a manky pear in the house, have got to the end on my broccoli etc).
 
To be honest, I am surprised when people say they have never met a hand-fed horse that was polite. I have known both pushy and polite hand-fed horses, and where the owner's habits could be observed it is usually pretty clear why their horses are one way or the other.
 
Lots of misconceptions and sweeping generalisations here, not least from Monty who is the grandaddy of finding explanations for everything that support his own view of the world, even if they go completely against any observations of equine behaviour by people who make a scientific study of equid behaviour (e.g. Sue McDonnell, Evelyn Hanggi).

First of all - horses do not have to hunt food so do not find food rewarding. Hmm, so they are unique among the animal kingdom? Or are missing the part of the mammalian brain that finds food rewarding? How do they survive? What makes them eat?
Like all animals, horses find food rewarding. Even a quick observation of a horse who will gallop the length of a field to get a bucket with a sprinkle of chaff and some pony nuts is enough to show that observation is bonkers. Saying horses don't hunt for food is also a case of only choosing to see the behaviour that fits your world view - has nobody seen a horse searching a hedgerow for a plant they particularly like? Do people really believe a horse just eats grass, and doesn't spend a lot of time selecting the things they prefer to eat?

Horses don't feed each other, so we shouldn't either. Hmm. So what's the first thing a foal does after it stands up? And what's the prime drive leading it to discover the use of its legs? What forms the bond with the dam?

Horses who are hand fed are always bitey. I could equally say "horses who aren't trained are always bad to lead" - you get what you train. If you haven't gone through a process to train your horse how to be led, you will find the horse stubborn and bargy. If you haven't gone through a process to train your horse how to accept food rewards from then hand, they will probably find your behaviour around food confusing and resort to whatever behaviour they think will get them the food they can smell. Just as with the leading, if they understand the rules, they will behave as trained. Yes, indiscriminate hand feeding can create bad habits. So can thoughtless behaviour around dinner time - people don't realise how powerful food is in shaping a horse's behaviour, and so you see whole stables of horses stamping around, kicking doors, and people complaining they can't get in the stable with a bucket without being trampled. Does that mean we should stop giving our horses bucket feeds, or does it mean we should teach our horses how to behave around food, taking account of how our own behaviour can cause the issues in the process?
Lack of training is lack of training, regardless of whether it's failing to teach the horse how to lead, or failing to teach the horse how to be polite around food. Avoiding a problem area is rarely the answer - saying "I will just make sure my horse is never fed from the hand in case he gets bitey" is akin to saying "I will just stop leading my horse and create a corridor so he can run from field to stable without being led". Address the issue with training and your horse will be polite. I like to do this on the basis that my horse lives on a Right of Way. I have no control over who walks through his field carrying sandwiches when I am not there, and I would like to think that he is safe around food as a result of training, not as a result of my avoiding him ever coming into contact with food fed from the hand.

In terms of special equipment, I think I'd rather have a special sugar lump pocket sewn into my coat like the Spanish Riding School than a special nose squeezing headcollar any day ;)
 
Probably because it makes them mouthy and annoying! I never feed mine from my hand ever. I got a 23yr old Shetland who had nipped all his life on loan and cured him within a couple of weeks because I a) didn't feed from hands b) bopped him on the nose with whichever body part he was going for.
 
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