Monty Roberts - does anyone know why??

fburton said:
Nevertheless it works! I hope that MR's more recent experiences with clicker training will have shown him what is possible when rewards are used in a targeted way.

As a general point, why should we be constrained to only doing things to horses that they would experience in a human-free life? Horses communicate and influence each others' actions by kicking and biting. That doesn't mean we need to do that ourselves.
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Amen. I'm not a horse/cow and never will be and find it extremely hard to believe that they see me that way. I'm their other weird two legged friend who gives treats from the hand and dishes out bowls of feed IF you please her/don't push her around. I give pretty much all my myriad of animals treats and don't have any problems with pushyness, but I'm good at calmly holding my ground. some people just dont get timing and *what* they are actually rewarding (the pushy stupid behaviour) so if you're one of them, definitely play it safe and don't. (thats probably what monty's getting at)

brightbay - great post!
 
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Our horses all get hand fed treats, and, without exception, none of them mug and all step back when offered a treat. As Brightbay says, its all down to training or the lack of.
 
DanceswithCows said:
Amen. I'm not a horse/cow and never will be and find it extremely hard to believe that they see me that way. I'm their other weird two legged friend who gives treats from the hand and dishes out bowls of feed IF you please her/don't push her around. I give pretty much all my myriad of animals treats and don't have any problems with pushyness, but I'm good at calmly holding my ground. some people just dont get timing and *what* they are actually rewarding (the pushy stupid behaviour) so if you're one of them, definitely play it safe and don't. (thats probably what monty's getting at)

brightbay - great post!
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I wouldn't want your chap trying to mug me with those horns! :D
 
Ancient Monument said:
the reason MR advises against feeding from the hand (and which I wholeheartedly agree with) is because horses are trickle feeders and are not rewarded for hunting for their food like a wolf, fox or dog and that psychologically horses do not equate doing well (ie hunting for food) with the reward.
I can't bear seeing horses barely finishing from a course, or even a xc course, puffing away having polos shoved down them.
What people do is up to them but you know exactly who feeds titbits when you stand next to a horse for two seconds.
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You see, a few years ago I would have agreed with this. I have ever fed treats, but this horse I have now was previously competed SJ by a pro. The first year I had him we always had a pole down, and we went back to the box, me happy that we had done OK.

The second year I had him I hurt my back and we did not jump at all.

The third year (YES 3 YEARS on) we started to jump again, and we have pretty much jumped clear each time since. The first time we jumped clear the horse came from the ring and was behaving in a peculiar way, refusing to go back to the box, and mugging my pockets.

It was a single phase competition, and I laughed it off as he thought he still had a jump off. Next time out the same, clear round meant mugged pockets. In three years he had never mugged me before.

I contacted the old owner, and yes, clear round meant Polos. The horse knew, even if I did not. I would not have believed it, but after 3 years I don't think it was from me, I had been plenty pleased with him before. So, Jay man knows clear round + Polos, and he seems to look forward to them.

New rule though, Polos are only when he gets back to the box, no more faffing around refusing to move u ntil he has one!
 
Mine get hand fed at certain times. When they're caught so they come when they're called; when they're turned out so they stand nicely to have their headcollars off; when they've worked well and when they do stretches. It's never made them mug anyone and they take food so gently that my 5 and 3 year old nieces are happy to stand in front of them (supervised of course) and hand feed them. They're 17hh and 16.3hh but don't do anything to intimidate two tiny little girls. Other than when the girls feed them (which is because the girls love doing it) they're getting positive rewards for good behaviour not random treats.

If I've forgtten to take something to the field with me for turning out however, Archie will stand at the gate for AGES looking like Oliver asking for more.
 
Horsemanship is knowing which horse you can use food on as a training tool and which horse you can't.

Manners are top of my list but I do use treats where appropriate. Two examples with my horses would be Ted, the feral carthorse and hyper nervous. Very tempting to use treats to get him on side but no, despite being a bag of nerves hand feeding turned him into a thug, a nervous dangerous thug.

My cob mare who was exceptionally rude when I had her some years ago had been hand fed big time, she would happily rip a coat apart, I sorted the manners out quite easily and she settled down to a new routine. Sadly she has terrible mites and the daily routine of caring for her legs caused her great pain and she was difficult to handle. I taught her a sweet was available if she let me do her legs. We now have a bizarre ritual of 5 sweets, and anyone watching would wonder what the heck is going on.

Tied on the wall she has sweet number one and is told to stand still. She stands like a rock and I deal with each leg, giving a treat after each one. Right or wrong it works and she longer crushes me up the wall (she weighs 730kg) or lashes out. It still hurts her but we have an understanding, she accepts what I do and I promise never to run out of sweets.
 
TPO said:
It's a bit of a sweeping assumption that you are the owner of rude horses because you feed from the hand!





The reason for bargy rude horses is the owner/regular handler not an occassional treat. If horses, clicker trained or not, are mugging you for treats then you've done something wrong!
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I couldn't agree more!
Any-one who disagrees with this statement is more than welcome to come and meet my well-mannered horses who are used to getting treats from my hand and are the latest in a long line of treated, well-mannered horses.

Sweeping statements do no-one any favours but then I frequently disagree with MR.
 
A friend of mine feeds her horses treats constantly because she wants them to "love" her, be caught, stand still, pick up feet, go on trailer, whatever. Strangely, her horses do NONE of these things and they will mow you down, knock you over, stand directly in your space and not move out of the way, amongst other annoying/dangerous things.

I not only don't feed treats AT ALL, I also don't feed bucket feed either - my horses do all of list A. above, and none of list B. If people want to feed horses by hand that's their affair; I have managed perfectly well for many years without treating horses as pets (and I don't give my dogs treats either).
 
In clicker training they are taught manners. If they aren't taught manners your not clicker training your just click and treating. I guess he has been involved in some clicker training that was done badly maybe?
 
Cortez said:
A friend of mine feeds her horses treats constantly because she wants them to "love" her, be caught, stand still, pick up feet, go on trailer, whatever. Strangely, her horses do NONE of these things and they will mow you down, knock you over, stand directly in your space and not move out of the way, amongst other annoying/dangerous things.

I not only don't feed treats AT ALL, I also don't feed bucket feed either - my horses do all of list A. above, and none of list B. If people want to feed horses by hand that's their affair; I have managed perfectly well for many years without treating horses as pets (and I don't give my dogs treats either).
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If I was in your line of work Cortez I would have this rule I think; I presume your horses are interacting with a lot of people and there's no reason to give them an option to be rude with the average person. And also the work itself is the reward; you probably have a tighter bond with your horses than I do with mine, because you work a lot harder. I can definitely see the merit in this!

I do treat my girl, sometimes, when I feel like it. Not as a reward, and she never knows when she's getting a treat. She's not rude, but if she was, she'd get nowt.
 
My animals also go meet the public, do shows and filmwork - never an issue with mugging, barging etc. Even my most greedy treat orientated mule will stand to have her feet picked up fine. If giving treats is interfering with picking up feet, you're *definitely* doing something wrong!
 
Tory27 said:
Bit of a random question but I’m curious as to whether anyone knows the 'why' to a ‘No No’ in Monty’s rule of horseman ship.

Whilst watching one of his programmes on Horse and Country (he was starting a young horse) he started to long rein the horse whilst on the lunge. When doing this he said …

“Lunging without the long rein is the top 3 of my big no’s with horses, lunging with one line is not acceptable because the horse is not symmetrical – fine, I understand that.

My biggest no is to strike a horse, horses should never be struck – Yep, fine understand that one too.

The 3rd biggest no no is feeding a horse from the hand – This one I don’t understand? Can anyone shed the light on why Monty doesn’t like / or feels it’s not acceptable to feed a horse from the hand?”

I’m sure I’m one of 100’s who feed their horses from the hand, polo’s, apples, carrots…..
Its what we do, isn’t it?? Or shouldn’t we??
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I never feed mine from the hand. Any rustling in my pockets & they immediately think I've got something for them. Highly irritating.
 
Im very much a treat from the hand. Always have been, always will be.
Guess what, I have very polite horses to be around - to the point they are often the favourites of the grooms.

That said I had a new 4yo arrive recently. Gave him a piece of carrot and he instantly turned into a rude mugger. He got a wallop and no food from the hand since!
 
If MR was questioned further I suspect he might add, "Don't do as I do, do as I say". As a general rule, I'd agree. Nothing from the hand. But I don't give treats but I do give rewards. Quite a lot, actually.

But what does annoy me is seeing people giving hand outs to MY ponies because they think it will make the pony like them. Bad psychology. They just learn that humans are an easy touch. Worst still are those who tease a horse with a "treat" to get it to do what they want and then don't hand over the deserved reward.

As I learnt from experience, even a bird of prey will know when it has been cheated, hence the term "under hand", i.e. the actions of a falconer who removes food by pulling it through the hand thinking the bird won't notice. They do, and they resent it! If they notice, don't tell me horses don't!
 
I think feeding treats to horses is something done to make humans better, rather than being of any benefit to the horse. In the same way people reward children with food (ducking and running now).

I prefer to rub their forehead when I'm on the ground, as head towards me is always a good thing and a scratch on the neck when I'm riding, as it's easy and convenient.
 
Brightbay said:
Lots of misconceptions and sweeping generalisations here, not least from Monty who is the grandaddy of finding explanations for everything that support his own view of the world, even if they go completely against any observations of equine behaviour by people who make a scientific study of equid behaviour (e.g. Sue McDonnell, Evelyn Hanggi).

First of all - horses do not have to hunt food so do not find food rewarding. Hmm, so they are unique among the animal kingdom? Or are missing the part of the mammalian brain that finds food rewarding? How do they survive? What makes them eat?
Like all animals, horses find food rewarding. Even a quick observation of a horse who will gallop the length of a field to get a bucket with a sprinkle of chaff and some pony nuts is enough to show that observation is bonkers. Saying horses don't hunt for food is also a case of only choosing to see the behaviour that fits your world view - has nobody seen a horse searching a hedgerow for a plant they particularly like? Do people really believe a horse just eats grass, and doesn't spend a lot of time selecting the things they prefer to eat?

Horses don't feed each other, so we shouldn't either. Hmm. So what's the first thing a foal does after it stands up? And what's the prime drive leading it to discover the use of its legs? What forms the bond with the dam?

Horses who are hand fed are always bitey. I could equally say "horses who aren't trained are always bad to lead" - you get what you train. If you haven't gone through a process to train your horse how to be led, you will find the horse stubborn and bargy. If you haven't gone through a process to train your horse how to accept food rewards from then hand, they will probably find your behaviour around food confusing and resort to whatever behaviour they think will get them the food they can smell. Just as with the leading, if they understand the rules, they will behave as trained. Yes, indiscriminate hand feeding can create bad habits. So can thoughtless behaviour around dinner time - people don't realise how powerful food is in shaping a horse's behaviour, and so you see whole stables of horses stamping around, kicking doors, and people complaining they can't get in the stable with a bucket without being trampled. Does that mean we should stop giving our horses bucket feeds, or does it mean we should teach our horses how to behave around food, taking account of how our own behaviour can cause the issues in the process?
Lack of training is lack of training, regardless of whether it's failing to teach the horse how to lead, or failing to teach the horse how to be polite around food. Avoiding a problem area is rarely the answer - saying "I will just make sure my horse is never fed from the hand in case he gets bitey" is akin to saying "I will just stop leading my horse and create a corridor so he can run from field to stable without being led". Address the issue with training and your horse will be polite. I like to do this on the basis that my horse lives on a Right of Way. I have no control over who walks through his field carrying sandwiches when I am not there, and I would like to think that he is safe around food as a result of training, not as a result of my avoiding him ever coming into contact with food fed from the hand.

In terms of special equipment, I think I'd rather have a special sugar lump pocket sewn into my coat like the Spanish Riding School than a special nose squeezing headcollar any day ;)
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Awesome post.
 
risky business said:
Not sure about monty but I know most folk don't feed by hand to discourage mugging behaviour.

I only feed my loan pony by hand when catching him in the field as without that carrot I could spend hours chasing the little blighter.
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This, I have one that would mug anyone if feed treats from the hand all the time. I have treats when I'm teach loading etc and have I nice big juicey carrot for catching in the elephant otherwise it would take me all night and he would injure himself again running away (12:2 pony mind 16:3 tank body)
 
Eavh to their own ways, I give mine a couple of carrots when I pick out their feet and they pick their feet up before I ask them, a cut carrot when I put them out and bring them they will stand quietly and for my youngster who has a 1/2 bucket of sliced carrots when he has his feet trimmed (he counts per foot) and he will stand as good as gold so not changing anything. :)
 
Brightbay wins!!

My horses catch, lead, load, stand get feet done etc AND get occasional treats. I know plenty that don't do any of that and some do get treats, others don't. Having manners and performing basic/essential tasks is to with training and horsemanship as a whole nothing more and nothing less.

Equally I've bought a horse that was fed treats on demand (she literally stamped her foot and a treat was produced), bit, barged, occasionally kicked and had to be cross tied to be handled and tacked up. Funnily enough never an issue when I got her home AND she still got hand treats when I felt like she "deserved" one and at night before lights out.

Horsemanship and training does not boil down to a lump of carrot. If it did someone would have branded and marketed it by now...
 
I don't feed from the hand either. During shows I try never to treat because then the horse plays up wanting fed all the time. Train without food and you'll be much happier in the long run!
 
My horse gets given treats all the time by hand. She doesn't bite/pull faces/isn't hard to catch etc etc. I think it's more down to the groundwork and training of the horse, though I do think personality of each individual horse plays a certain part in it too.
 
I have a dilemma related to this at the moment. I have a lovely horse who I occasionally feed polos to just when turning out and occasionally after riding.

If he ever gets expectant then I stop and leave it for a few days and he remembers his manners.

But a friend of mine started feeding him treats incessantly and now he is a total mugger when she is around, she has the best intentions as she seems to feed her horse (who is very rude) out of misguided love. My horse will literally barge through me to get to her. I am quite strict but this is so hard to reinforce with a 500lb animal!

I realise my friend is the problem really, but how do you say without offending her that she can't feed treats to him anymore?
 
I feed horses by hand all the time with no ill effect (and many good outcomes). What matters is your timing and that you only reward the right things. Rewarding with food is an extremely effective training method: http://www.equinews.com/article/food-rewards-helpful-training-horses That horses do not view food as a reward is utter nonsense. Rewards are not conceptual - if something is pleasant, it is a reward.

edit: What I say to people is that they should only give horses treats when they have asked for something from the horse and the horse has given it. And if they (the person) seem reluctant to comply, I burden them with responsibility and explain that their every action influences the horse and they are therefore an integral part of the horse's training context. They have to behave accordingly.
 
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My view on this is simple.........If it's your horse do what you want with it( within reason of course) if you want to feed treats by hand, bucket or sling shot, go ahead. If you don't.......don't.

Everyone is entitled to their view and opinion, however I sometimes find that some people views can be absolute and a bit overbearing ......each to their own, live and let live, there is more then one path, you take the high road and I'll take the low road..........
 
Watching performing horses in a circus at least 50 years ago, I noticed the handler giving occasional rewards (it looked like slices of carrot). That convinced me then of the value of giving an occasional reward, but not treats. No free lunches here!
 
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