Monty Roberts...Mumbo-Jumbo or OK??

Maybe not the best ...and anyone who has to make up his past to sell himself.. well make up your own mind folks ,he has tryed to copy people like Ray Hunt, Bill and Tom Dorrance etc which all go back to the spanish conquistidors ,the teachings of xenophon and clasical riding...my point is if it makes people consider the horse and fosters understanding of what makes great horsemanship then great ....
 
Sounds like you were systematically desensitizing (Behavioursim) your horse to be clipped. As you mentioned Monty didn't choose her in demo, I'd be interested to know if he or NH uses desensitization methods outside of demonstrations. Or, do they go down the dominance route or something else with problems of this sort?
In my experience horses respond better to gradual exposure rather than everything all at once if they have a problem with it no matter how dominant you are. They may comply but they'll still be unconfident/nervous and that's when you may get into problems! Of course, dominance is still a key factor but your horse has to have confidence that you're the leader who won't lead it into danger. I believe that can only come through gradual exposure to, say, those scary ditches, etc! But maybe I don't fully understand how Monty or NH works, though? Thanks.
 
Wow......obviously a heated topic! As this forum is about horse behaviour and modification, why don't you try looking at the 'Australian Equine Behaviour Centre' website who publishes scientific research that has been carried out on horse behaviour, modification and training. It all a bit more concrete for me and less anecdotal - a lot of which NH seems to be! Thanks.
 
I can't speak for Monty, but all the "NH" style trainers I know use desensitisation.
Dominance is an interesting word... you could argue that if you decide you want your horse to submit to being clipped, even if you use gentle desensitisation, you are still being dominant over them. NH training is far from being all about dominance and forcing horses into submission. The good trainers are empathic and can be very subtle.
The relevance of the links posted is that they explain WHY Monty's family decided to publish a book at their own expense exposing the inaccuracies in his stories, and it doesn't seem to have a lot to do with jealousy. There are easily verifiable facts quoted in Horse Whispers and Lies that prove that Monty was rather "inventive" when he created the legend that has become Monty Roberts. For example, his school attendance records prove that he <u>couldn't</u> have spent the time he claimed studying mustangs in the wild.
This doesn't take away the fact that he has done a lot to publicise his way of working with horses. However, the book is free to read, so I can't understand why anyone who is interested in Monty Roberts wouldn't at least read it, so that they could be informed about both sides of the story.
p.s. If you get your hands on Monty's dad's book - Horse and Horseman Training - you can't fail to speculate that in fact he learnt a lot of what he does from his dad. Including "Join Up".
 
From my understanding densensitization does not have to involve dominance as it is progressive. If you use 'flooding' where a horse would be vigorously and repetitiously exposed to a stimulus then dominance is involved. I am interested to know what other methods NH uses aswell.
I am sure there are some very good NH people out there who have a very good awareness of what they're doing and who we can all learn from. I haven't read Monty's stuff but have read others and have learnt from it. Indeed, some methods work really well.
However, I guess my point is that I find it more beneficial to read material that is a bit more scientific as it is more rigorous than some of the NH stuff I have read (but maybe I haven't read enough!). I think it's relevent to criticise Monty for not doing the research he argues he did but I'm not really interested in Monty's personal wrangles as I don't find it relevant to the training of horses.
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I think if you impose your will on anything then you are being dominant over them, in that you are deciding that what you want them to do is more important than what they want. But that's life when you're a horse isn't it? Sometimes we need them to do things they don't want.
Not sure what you're getting at really. The good trainers (NH or otherwise) are well aware of the dangers of flooding and don't use it. As a general rule the training uses some -R (a term which can get knickers in knots can't it?). If you use the term scientifically there doesn't have to be a "negative" connotation to it at all.
I have know some trainers affiliated to a popular UK training "approach" who I think have been taught to flood horses. By doing things like hanging plastic bottles in doorways, putting plastic sheets on stable floors, leaving a horse stabled next to pigs... Personally I think that is very wrong. Of course sometimes flooding works, but it can also produce long-term trauma and make the original problem much worse.
Approach and retreat are commonly used, as are pressure and release. Although there is huge disagreement as to whether or not pressure halters are acceptable or ever needed. (By pressure halters I mean devices that close). Also, forum wars break out at the mention of the gumline that Monty uses and calls the Buckstopper and tying dummies on horses backs.
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It always strikes me as odd that some people are happy to use a halter that closes down on a horse's head, but come over all shocked at the thought that someone might carry a whip. Surely either tool is fine if it's used correctly? If you use a whip to beat or punish a horse then most would agree that's wrong, but to touch the horse behind your leg to explain an aid? Is that a crime?
I know some people who understand the "science" behind the behaviour and use that with a good grounding of common sense. Francis Burton posts here sometimes, and I think he's a good example of that. Unfortunately, many of the people I know who claim to be experts in equine behaviour don't seem to be able to translate that into producing safe, calm and obedient horses, which is rather a shame.
I do sometimes wonder how much "science" needs to be studied to be a good and sympathetic horse trainer. If someone can help a horse to be calm and relaxed and understand what is required of it, then do they need to understand the science of why it works? Maybe they are capable of just observing the horse in front of them, and treating that animal appropriately and with respect and care - without having the words to analyse what they are doing and why it's worked.
Howzat? A little bit of discussion for you, and welcome.
 
p.s. I thoroughly recommend Sarah Widdicombe's book, The BHS Book Of The Natural Horse. It's a common sense explanation of some "NH" fundamentals and how they can relate to any horse and owner who is interested.
 
What a horse does under compulsion he does blindly... the performances of horse or man so treated are displays of clumsy gestures rather than of grace and beauty.What we need is that the horse should of his own accord exhibit his finest airs and paces at set signals...
Such are the horses on which gods and heroes ride.

Xenophon 430- 355 BC
 
Very clever. And the point is? Are you straying rather from the topic of the original thread?
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Why not start another on whether we are morally entitled to expect a horse to "submit" to our wants at all?
If you look at some of the methods Xenophon applied to horse training you will see some striking similarities to how many current-day trainers (NH or whatever) work with horses.
 
Dont think is too far from the disscusion NH people say there trying to work with the horse not against but realy thats always the basis of good horsemanship.. Im enjoying my western riding lessons softness and selfcarrage light and lighter aids... Yes start a new thread Tinypony!!!!
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Just to pick up on your point about science......I think it is important to have a thorough knowledge of the scientific research that has been carried out on horses and equine behvaiour. By its' very nature this research has taken a sample of horses and tested for general patterns in behaviour. This is the same principle when studying disease where our knowledge has been advanced on, say, on HIV, etc. We know more because its been tested in a specific way that avoids anecdotal information. You may say that a 'natural horseman' knows instictively what works.
But, to give you an example, 'science' questions some assumptions that are made by the NH movement. (I guess I'm talking about round pen work)
For example, when acting as the alpha member the trainer will exile the horse [as the mare would do] until the horse shows signs of submission. What Monty has said are submissive behaviours (lowering head/chewing) have been shown from research to be displacement activities. For example, chewing may mean the horse is anxious and trying to comfort itself. Therefore, science has told us that horses in this situation are uncomfortable and anxious rather than submissive as Monty would suggest. Using negative reinforcement, he says, 'comply or this discomfort will not go away'! Well, this is the way I see it but I may be wrong here.
Some NH methods really do seem to work as the horses do seem to readily comply once this relationship is set up. But, it appears that it uses negative reinforcement as much as traditional methods. I'm not saying that we should avoid using NR but it would be great to move towards training that incorporate more positive reinforcement. However, to fully understand this we need ethological research that tells us how this works with horses in thier 'natural' state in order to produce training that is as humane as possible.
 
Having met him, had dinner with him, question him, allowed one of our horses to be used by him, watched demos, I have absolutely no time for him what so ever!!!!!!!

And before I get started on him, I'd better finish my post now!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I understand you may not want to incriminate yourself but I would be interested to know what effects this type of work had upon your horses?
 
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