Monty Roberts yesterday - thoughts?

fburton said:
Not saying that this was the case here - I wasn't present - but remember that people can also laugh as a release of nervous tension and as reassurance.
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I didn't have the sound up but they were, I think, laughing in response to jokes being made about the situation by Monty. I just felt sorry for that poor bewildered mare trapped in a cage with an audience bursting into laughter, for whatever reason.

I hope no HHOer, in fact I'm sure no HHOer, would attempt to sit on a horse which was panicking just when being led around.
 
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Goldenstar said:
I know I know not remotely funny ,a horse having bad experiance is not funny .
It all get right up my nose and pending the myth that this type of method is somehow more humane than the tradional structured way I was trained to back horses . Where great care was taken to physically condition the horse and to train it to the voice to teach it the basics of bend and yielding away before a structured step by step build up to the backing and then a structured approach to riding away .
Hey ho all part of the quick fix horsemanship too popular today .
It was drummed into us that the horse lives with the mistakes you make at the start for ever - you move on to the next one but the horse can’t escape that backing because it only has one .
That’s why I hate backing as entertainment .
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yep, completely. and yet this is the bloke who's told thousands that lunging is cruel. I saw him decades ago when he first came to Newmarket, not impressed with him now or then. If that mare is to carry on a ridden career I pity the poor sod who is in change of riding it. and tbh if I'd have been that girl's parents I'd have been furious-to have tack fail once is bad enough.
 
My friend took a difficult horse to one of his clinics, he refused it and any others that were problematic. The allegedly untouched youngster he chose to work with was wearing shoes!

I have to admit I have never liked his methods and after seeing him ride down the horse in the desert causing that horse immense and cruel stress I would not call that horsemanship. Now he's just a mass pleaser.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
yep, completely. and yet this is the bloke who's told thousands that lunging is cruel. I saw him decades ago when he first came to Newmarket, not impressed with him now or then. If that mare is to carry on a ridden career I pity the poor sod who is in change of riding it. and tbh if I'd have been that girl's parents I'd have been furious-to have tack fail once is bad enough.
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What was it with that saddle? I thought it was a half treed racing saddle and didn't fit anyway. Who gives a horse a first ridden experience in such a bad saddle?
 
Fools Motto said:
I was also put off Kelly Marks, when she was trying to load a horse into a trailer, by using army camouflage nets to hide the trailer!!?!?!
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Assuming you mean that you were put off by the use of camouflage nets and not Kelly Marks herself... :)

It does seem an extraordinary measure to take in order to teach a horse to load. I can only imagine they decided the horse had such an aversion to the appearance of the outside of the trailer that it was making it extremely hard to lead the horse close enough to the trailer to even attempt the usual procedures. It may have been a sensible thing to try under the circumstances - I don't know because I wasn't there. Were they successful in the end?
 
fburton said:
Assuming you mean that you were put off by the use of camouflage nets and not Kelly Marks herself... :)

It does seem an extraordinary measure to take in order to teach a horse to load. I can only imagine they decided the horse had such an aversion to the appearance of the outside of the trailer that it was making it extremely hard to lead the horse close enough to the trailer to even attempt the usual procedures. It may have been a sensible thing to try under the circumstances - I don't know because I wasn't there. Were they successful in the end?
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It's the same 'quick fix' for a demo problem, though, isn't it FB. More sensible, surely, to feed the horse a bit closer to the trailer every day for a fortnight?

What happens if the horse is half in and a gust of wind blows the camo nets around?

I have no problem with speed backing, and I'll be doing it to my own three year old when the snow stops, IF he stays quiet and calm to be tacked up and leant over. And if not, it will take however long it takes.
 
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jumbyjack said:
I have to admit I have never liked his methods and after seeing him ride down the horse in the desert causing that horse immense and cruel stress I would not call that horsemanship. Now he's just a mass pleaser.
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I had forgotten about that-I couldnt understand why that was thought of as being so great at the time and felt so sorry for that youngster. nothing about his methods are kind-they may have some merit for completely feral mustangs that you need dead broke quickly but dont see its place these days and here.
 
ycbm said:
I didn't have the sound up but they were, I think, laughing in response to jokes being made about the situation by Monty.
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That would make sense, although I imagine the laughter could still have been nervous release triggered by the 'jokes' rather than because they were actually funny.

I just felt sorry for that poor bewildered mare trapped in a cage with an audience bursting into laughter, for whatever reason.
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I don't think I would have laughed, and would have kept quiet (no clapping) for the sake of the horse.

I hope no HHOer, in fact I'm sure no HHOer, would attempt to sit on a horse which was panicking just when being led around.
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Such public demonstrations impose constraints that can work against the horse's interests - sometimes disastrously so.
 
ycbm said:
It's the same 'quick fix' for a demo problem, though, isn't it FB. More sensible, surely, to feed the horse a bit closer to the trailer every day for a fortnight?
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Oh, absolutely! I've known people teach their horses to 'self load' by parking an open trailer in the field and feeding them near/inside - not feasible for everyone but quite effective and stress-free.
 
We in the UK have often been very snotty about these demos, but remember where he comes from where he witnessed awful cruelty and abuse of horses as a normal part of "breaking." Also Kelly was from a racing background and preferred his methods.

I have been to various demos by Monty, Mark Rashid, Linda Tellington-Jones and although it was a long time ago now, it certainly made me re-evaluate my handling/training and to see things from the horse's point of view a lot more than I did previously, having only been a product of the Pony Club and hunting field.
 
Orangehorse said:
see things from the horse's point of view a lot more than I did previously, having only been a product of the Pony Club and hunting field.
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This is where the NH thing gets a bit silly - so people who hunt and do PC are cruel, NH isn't? Individuals following any method can make mistakes, be cruel and just be crap with animals. Michale Sharpley broke our youngsters, he was old school but the kindest, most patient man. WhenI went to a MR demo I thought although Michael didn't use the gadgets, his sense of timing was very similar, know when to push and when to back off. The best horsemen from any school are those with the best instincts and timing.
 
I loathe Monty Roberts (and others of similar fame and notoriety) He relies on smoke and mirrors plus a fair amount of mental cruelty and sly jabs of the 'Dooly' (Dually) whilst regaling the audience with anecdotes of his cruel father.

He maintains he wants to leave the world a better place for horses, well that is possibly his truest statement because when he leaves the world horses, will no longer be tormented by his unpleasant methods.

To those that think he is wonderful, I suggest you watch his videos with the sound off. Without the distraction of his voice it is only too plain to see what he really gets up to.
 
I fairly sure that some of the abuse in the breaking of horses that he supposedly witnessed as a child has been debunked anyway, but it made for a good book/story.

I don't think it has anything to do with being snotty, I actually think for the most part alternative methods have been/were welcomed with open arms in this country, certainly initially. But the more it goes on the the more things happen that make even a lay horse person like me question everything that is going on under that name. Most of them usually have something helpful to say but that doesn't mean that everything they do is great, or something I would take on board to use in the future.


And to a use a lipline on a bucker as he has done with some frequency (as described by FM) is pretty abusive in my book still
 
My brief thoughts -

Backing horses isn’t a spectator show and irrespective of the horses background/temprement they shouldn’t be put in that situation.

When backing them you need a saddle that stays put if something unfortunate happens. The saddle put the horse and rider in danger.

On the assumption I accept he was there to put on a show for the audience (which I don’t) then he was completely irresponsible to go for round 2. He should have continued with the leaning over with a view to sitting up and finishing on that. Whilst talking around it. Even that would have been too quick, but in view of the overall picture probably the viable option.

As it is he is very lucky the jockey wasn’t injured. I wonder what his insurers will think of that video
 
I stopped watching when the saddle slipped. It was not a display of horsemanship and I feel very sorry for the horse and rider who has to put up with this.
 
Orangehorse said:
I have been to various demos by Monty, Mark Rashid, Linda Tellington-Jones and although it was a long time ago now, it certainly made me re-evaluate my handling/training and to see things from the horse's point of view a lot more than I did previously, having only been a product of the Pony Club and hunting field.
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I used to go to demos quite a lot, and have seen a variety of horsemen/women both here and in the US. There's always useful (and sometimes revelatory) things to see at these events - even if one doesn't like what one sees! Most of the time, however, the horses coped fine with what was being done with/to them. If I had to pick a favourite, it would probably be Mark Rashid.
 
This blog give a brief synopsis of the video (but leaves out bits like the saddle slipping twice, the girl getting her foot caught the first time and being bounced of the top of the round pen the second, and the fact that at the very end, when she got off, Mia jumped sideways) and it shows another video, another trainer, and a different approach to reading and assessing a horse and its reactions.

"If your horse is out of control at this point, then you shouldn't be riding it" kind of sums it up.

https://horsecrazyagain.com/2018/03/26/the-measure-of-a-horseman/
 
If that girl riding is an employee of Monty Roberts how would things stand if she got badly hurt because there certainly wasn't any care for her welfare riding a horse which obviously wasn't ready to be ridden.
 
Clodagh said:
This is where the NH thing gets a bit silly - so people who hunt and do PC are cruel, NH isn't? Individuals following any method can make mistakes, be cruel and just be crap with animals. Michale Sharpley broke our youngsters, he was old school but the kindest, most patient man. WhenI went to a MR demo I thought although Michael didn't use the gadgets, his sense of timing was very similar, know when to push and when to back off. The best horsemen from any school are those with the best instincts and timing.
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I didn't say anything about cruelty, I have never been cruel to any horse or pony, ever, it just made me re-evaluate many things that were taught "traditionally" just to look from another standpoint and I am glad that I did. I am not a NH person as such either! I hope that I open minded.

I went on one clinic with an American lady who used to buy and rehab and retrain horses from all sorts of homes and backgrounds. She said that we have no idea about cruel methods in the UK. She had seen horses beaten to the ground with chains when they "misbehaved" and that wasn't an isolated incident.

I also know a Monty Roberts person who was coming across so many horses that had training problems that were caused originally by pain issues that she went and trained as an equine physio.
 
Shavings said:
i cant watch because the video has been removed..
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I am not surprised as the comments on the charities face book page have been very negative. IMHO quite correctly as they should never have tried to back the mare if it is true it fractured a hock and sustained other injuries as well. I wonder if anyone has considered the mare might be feisty because she is in pain.........
 
In this instance things certainly didn't go as planned.

However I see these demonstrations by Monty Roberts as a 'quick view' of his methods as it's not practical to show his starting of a horse in the actual real time that's used when he starts a horse at home.

As others have suggested, perhaps he should simply educate the audience on the join-up procedure, which, let's face it, is a really enjoyable game to play with your horse in a small school. Regarding the starting of a horse after join-up - perhaps MR should change all of this and stop at the stage where a rider leans over a horse. No sitting up, no walking about or anything else - and then for him to explain that the next phase is to progress over a longer period of time so that the horse is comfortable with every phase.

He can still do his 'difficult to load' performances and do join-up with a variety of challenging horses who refuse to yield to the owner's own attempt of join-up and who has no respect for the handler's personal space.

I have met MR at one of his demonstrations and he's got a kind soul and was lovely.

Apart from anything equine related, I take my hat off to him that he's fostered 47 kids over the years and for this alone I've got huge respect for him.
 
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fburton said:
If I had to pick a favourite, it would probably be Mark Rashid.
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Me too. And he refuses to do colt starting clinics. Hates them. Wrote a very good article once about how destructive it was to put additional pressure and time constraints on such an important process. He's not a showman either. Doesn't even sell his own books at his clinics, let alone treat the entire thing as a great marketing and merchandising opportunity.
 
npage123 said:
As others have suggested, perhaps he should simply educate the audience on the join-up procedure, which, let's face it, is a really enjoyable game to play with your horse in a small school.
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Hmm, I'm not sure it's a good idea to encourage people to play this 'game' willy-nilly, because of the potential for miscommunication. (Especially in a school where having corners doesn't help!) I'm sure Kelly has stated that join-up isn't suitable for all horses. Also, I think it's important to understand the reasons for doing things to/with your horses and I'm not convinced that attending a demo of join-up would necessarily impart that understanding.

... yield to the owner's own attempt of join-up and who has no respect for the handler's personal space
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What do you think join-up is meant to do?
 
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