Monty Roberts yesterday - thoughts?

Haven't read whole thread but don't like MR really.
I don't understand this whole thing about getting a rider up on them as quickly as possible? It's always struck me as a fast track way to A&E because it doesn't give the horse any good psychological grounding but OK maybe I am just a cynic.
Really don't get how chasing a horse round a tiny pen with a whip is mimicking equine behaviour anyway. Wild horses have huge tracts of land and only their bodies with which to give signals, yet in "join up" you are in a tiny space waving a foreign object at a prey animal. It just doesn't seem a good way to 'bond' with a horse to me and I feel like if I tried it with mine I would lose any "bond" I have with them and possibly risk them retaliating with violence as well due to lots of pressure in a small space and no time for them to adapt mentally and figure out what is going on: the horse in the video didn't look ready to progress to me and I think looked a lovely tolerant kind mare to put up with all that (particularly with strangers in such an environment as a demo setting!)
 
prodigal2 said:
A good or great trainer will also be a great student and will be constantly reviewing and changing elements as they learn more. Sadly I think MR and some of his ilk are caught in a dogma trap because of how their brands/companies have been built up around certain flag poles of ideology, and we are in a great age for equine scientific research which can highlight better ways for going forward. What I am grateful for from MR, is that he opened the door for a shift in how we approach horses and train, and many of his ways are sound but are wrapped up in a load of sudo science claptrap that does not bear up under any form of scrutiny.
Click to expand...

Interestingly Mark Rashid has changed repeatedly over the years -but a lot of his students are 'stuck' where he was 15/20 years ago. When I was at a demo a few years ago some people seemed really put out that he no longer advocated things he used to. So I can see why trainers just stick to their USPs. The 'fans' are as rigid and dogmatic as the trainers. And in some cases far more so!
 
I remember seeing a video of someone getting a horse to 'join up' with a remote control toy car-obviously that spoke Equus too
 
ycbm said:
Follow me, I know best. And if you don't follow me I'll drive you in front of me. My Alpha is a gelding. When he comes in, all come in. When he goes out, all go out. Sometimes the others try and drag him out when he wants to be in , but he won't go and they won't go without him. Humans use this one all the time.
Click to expand...
This may be how join-up works: follow me or else I will keep driving you away - under the assumption that being chased is aversive and something the horse would rather not do. How plausible does this sound to you? Or do you think the human in join-up is actor more like the predator with prey than a dominant horse with a submissive horse? Or something different from either of those?

'This is not safe, I'm out of here'. If the Alpha is frightened by something, everyone is frightened by it. Any of the other three can be frightened by themselves, but not the Alpha. Humans inadvertently use this one all the time, to ill effect. Nervous handlers/riders make nervous horses.
Click to expand...
This isn't specific to the alpha, though, in that courage/lack of fear or confidence is a quality that a horse or human can show without necessarily being dominant. That would be consistent with the observation that leadership and dominance aren't always seen in the same horse (as in the case of your alpha gelding), and that leadership roles can be quite fluid or dynamic under some circumstances (more natural settings that don't impose the same pressures to compete that domestic regimes often do, see e.g. the video I linked above).

And when it comes to us humans, it is quite possible to be fearless and confident - and express than in our body language - without also being dominant/pushy/driving.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Interestingly Mark Rashid has changed repeatedly over the years -but a lot of his students are 'stuck' where he was 15/20 years ago. When I was at a demo a few years ago some people seemed really put out that he no longer advocated things he used to. So I can see why trainers just stick to their USPs. The 'fans' are as rigid and dogmatic as the trainers. And in some cases far more so!
Click to expand...
I'm curious to know how Mark Rashid has changed in what he advocates, because I haven't really followed what he's been doing since about 15 years ago.
 
I think generally, initiative has more of a part to play than dominance when it comes to one horse/human being the leader in a given situation
 
We had a professional out to our yard yesterday. They draped a tarpaulin on the floor and using pressure and release techniques got the horse willingly walking over tarpaulin before draping it over its head and body. He then briefly sat on him for the first time in a head collar and leadrope. No drama with join up techniques or spending weeks leaning over the horse getting it used to the rider and the weight of a rider. He's had a good background of in hand work and is well educated for his age. He will probably be turned away for a time and the same thing will be re-introduced at a later date, whilst the owner continues to work on ground work with him. He is 3.
 
So they have put up a statement about the physical condition of the horse having taken it to a vet and stated what was on the rehoming form 4 years ago when they acquired her. I am not sure why they didn't just address that statement quickly on facebook if they believed it to be untrue rather than let it gain any pace but I guess that is one if the troubles with social media.

In doing so they do seem to have missed the main point regarding what happened to the horse, personally I think I would have wanted to make an informed decision as to whether it was the right thing for my horses before I sent them but suspect as a lot of people they've not really thought the techniques through.

https://www.facebook.com/ewncharity/posts/1023288467819937
 
Last edited:
ester said:
So they have put up a statement about the physical condition of the horse having taken it to a vet and stated what was on the rehoming form 4 years ago when they acquired her. I am not sure why they didn't just address that statement quickly on facebook if they believed it to be untrue rather than let it gain any pace but I guess that is one if the troubles with social media.

In doing so they do seem to have missed the main point regarding what happened to the horse, personally I think I would have wanted to make an informed decision as to whether it was the right thing for my horses before I sent them but suspect as a lot of people they've not really thought the techniques through.

https://www.facebook.com/ewncharity/posts/1023288467819937
Click to expand...

I'm not quite sure how the horse can have been relaxed and confident while being lunged and long reined, and yet its actions in the round pen were just it being "fresh". I'm afraid I doubt her ability to assess the psychological well being of the horse, given that they were happy with the round pen session initially, enough to post a video online and be planning another session the next day.
 
I'm afraid I agree ester. That particular comment could and should have been addressed immediately and could have at least removed that factor from the discussion.

But to my mind, that wasn't really the point. I would want to know why it was thought a good idea to take rescue ponies there in the first place, and some acknowledgement that, given that video and what was in it, it was perhaps a mistake.

There were a lot of very knowledgeable people commenting on the FB page, and they were all in agreement about the way Mia was treated, without reference to that allegation.
 
JFTD said:
I'm not quite sure how the horse can have been relaxed and confident while being lunged and long reined, and yet its actions in the round pen were just it being "fresh". I'm afraid I doubt her ability to assess the psychological well being of the horse, given that they were happy with the round pen session initially, enough to post a video online and be planning another session the next day.
Click to expand...

We only saw from just before they put the rider on but in that time she was showing no sign of being fresh, she was lathered up behind the saddle so had obviously been worked fairly hard by then( unless the sweating was due to stress), she was however showing confusion, she did not look relaxed and once the rider was on she looked stressed, confused by being pushed away and the second time she exploded it appeared that she had no option as she had been asking to stop but was not listened to by someone who claims to speak equine, he may speak but that day was certainly not listening.
 
be positive said:
We only saw from just before they put the rider on but in that time she was showing no sign of being fresh, she was lathered up behind the saddle so had obviously been worked fairly hard by then
Click to expand...

That was my feeling too - I don't see how an unfit horse could be fresh after having been lunged and long reined, and the horse in the video certainly didn't look it to me.

I'm concerned that someone in charge(?) of a rescue is such a poor judge of the horse's state of mind that she thought the horse was in any condition to work, let alone be treated in that manner.
 
JFTD said:
That was my feeling too - I don't see how an unfit horse could be fresh after having been lunged and long reined, and the horse in the video certainly didn't look it to me.

I'm concerned that someone in charge(?) of a rescue is such a poor judge of the horse's state of mind that she thought the horse was in any condition to work, let alone be treated in that manner.
Click to expand...

It also occurred to me that they have had her for 4 years, knew she was sharp and bored from the sound of things yet with all their experience and knowledge had not actually tried to ride her themselves in order to find her an appropriate home, guessing she is at least 7 or 8 now she would have been better off backed once her foal was weaned and rehomed, it is not dissimilar to the dog rescues that hoard rather than rehome the more problematic dogs or have them pts, no wonder they are always asking for more money when they are keeping otherwise healthy animals for years.
 
It's interesting to hear that Mia was lunged and introduced to the saddle and Ardell Dummy before the demo - I thought Monty didn't like lunging? Also I was under the impression many of the horses at his demos hadn't been started at all (ie no lunging or saddle beforehand).

In Mia's case they say when she went to the rescue she accepted the rider but was not walked on - that rings bells to me, surely if a horse is sat on the next step is a walk and even if she was in foal, at that early on a walk would not have been a problem? I also wonder what else she did in the 4 years with the rescue?

Many horses like a good buck, rolling and playing when turned out after all the field is their "playground" I don't think that would put me off working them as it's a different set of circumstances - a controlled enviroment with people not an open field.

All in all I find the whole thing very strange and wonder if other things have happened along the way? I'm not sure things have been done with Mia's best interests at heart.
 
The fact that she was backed for 5/6 weeks iirc in her previous home and that the rescue had never asked her to walk on with a rider seems odd to me.

Monty did say she’d had the ardall on, which I think shows how much that’s isn’t the same!
 
fburton said:
Why do you think it's sad? From the horse's point of view, is being made to do something by someone controlling a toy car worse than being made to do the same thing by person 'in person'?
Click to expand...

RC car - no empathy - cannot interact with horse, or respond to its cues. Which is unfair on the horse imho.
 
Chinchilla said:
RC car - no empathy - cannot interact with horse, or respond to its cues. Which is unfair on the horse imho.
Click to expand...
Ah, I see what you mean. In this case, there was a person in the loop, watching the horse and interacting/responding via the car's movement. So there was no danger of the horse being chased beyond the limits of what the person would do if they were in the pen with the horse. Indeed, the person aimed to produce exactly the same series of responses that would be produced by a human trainer. Empathy would still be there, at least in principle, because the person is responding to the horse.

The quality of interaction would certainly be different, though - I'll give you that! I'm just not sure that having an animate object make the horse do certain things rather than a person would in itself be cruel or unfair. What if the person acted via a humanoid robot, producing human movements and observing the horse through the robot's 'eyes'?
 
fburton said:
I'm curious to know how Mark Rashid has changed in what he advocates, because I haven't really followed what he's been doing since about 15 years ago.
Click to expand...

Well I am no expert and I have not read all his recent stuff, but for example he has moved away from 'make the right thing easy, make the wrong thing difficult' in a lot of situations, in favour of just finding the try. In purely behavioural terms he is probably less -ve reinforcement, +ve punishment (right thing reinforced, wrong thing punished) and more slow, subtle shaping.

But where his interest really seems to have gone is Aikido and softness/feel/connection. What I think he calls the 'inside of the horse'. Which is a place I can't really follow him. I have no interest in Aikido and I don't want my horses as feather-light/telepathic as he seems to want his. Plus I like physical cues! He always did have an interest in softness and feel - and riding with awareness of energy/attention etc - which I have found very useful but he seems to have taken that a lot further now.

His books were never 'how to' guides anyway but what he was describing was fairly accessible to anyone with any interest and there was enough information in them to use his ideas. The most recent one on restarting horses is actually quite dull imo and not useful in the same way as it contains lengthy descriptions of very precise responses he makes to very specific behaviours on the part of the horse which could never be replicated as they are so situation specific and aren't rooted in any particular method. At least not that I could tell.

He's still my favourite trainer though!
 
fburton said:
Ah, I see what you mean. In this case, there was a person in the loop, watching the horse and interacting/responding via the car's movement. So there was no danger of the horse being chased beyond the limits of what the person would do if they were in the pen with the horse. Indeed, the person aimed to produce exactly the same series of responses that would be produced by a human trainer. Empathy would still be there, at least in principle, because the person is responding to the horse.

The quality of interaction would certainly be different, though - I'll give you that! I'm just not sure that having an animate object make the horse do certain things rather than a person would in itself be cruel or unfair. What if the person acted via a humanoid robot, producing human movements and observing the horse through the robot's 'eyes'?
Click to expand...

yes I see now (when it was first mentioned I thought someone meant a fully automated car but god knows why I thought that) but I found the article and posted a link to it; it was actually done as a study into how the join up technique itself works with a person controlling the car and making it chase etc. Still not sure how I got the idea it was automatic but anyway.... :o
 
Last edited:
Chinchilla said:
yes I see now (when it was first mentioned I thought someone meant a fully automated car but god knows why I thought that) but I found the article and posted a link to it; it was actually done as a study into how the join up technique itself works with a person controlling the car and making it chase etc. Still not sure how I got the idea it was automatic but anyway.... :o
Click to expand...
No worries! Thanks for posting the link to the article. :)

Although I said that I thought such a setup wouldn't necessarily be cruel or unfair, I should add that I consider it to be far from ideal. Even if the person operating the car was highly skilled and observant, they could never attain the level of communication possible if they were in the pen with the horse - because people are naturally more expressive in their body language, including in often subconscious or unconscious changes in muscle tension, lacking in a mechanical car. However, I reckon someone skilled and sensitive operating a car would be able to get a horse to join-up better (and probably less stressfully for the horse) than a novice there in person... Unless there is something about join-up I am missing - in which case, let's talk about it!

I just wanted to throw these comments out to spark some debate.
 
I read the article about the car. My comment would be the car has no body language, it's physical shape does not change. Even very young horses pick up on your body language, l use a snap of the fingers or a flat palm, they soon know if you are wound up, your body is stiffer and your movement less fluid, you hold you breath. The only time they get chased if if they refuse to be caught, and I will not let them stand. Eventually it's true they do drop their head but they know I am cross,so we make peace, they are caught, no grudges, and go back to our normal way of communication. I do not think a car is that subtle.
 
honetpot said:
I read the article about the car. My comment would be the car has no body language, it's physical shape does not change. Even very young horses pick up on your body language, l use a snap of the fingers or a flat palm, they soon know if you are wound up, your body is stiffer and your movement less fluid, you hold you breath. The only time they get chased if if they refuse to be caught, and I will not let them stand. Eventually it's true they do drop their head but they know I am cross,so we make peace, they are caught, no grudges, and go back to our normal way of communication. I do not think a car is that subtle.
Click to expand...

Agree. Thank you. This is what I was trying (and failing) to say lol :)
 
honetpot said:
I read the article about the car. My comment would be the car has no body language, it's physical shape does not change. Even very young horses pick up on your body language, l use a snap of the fingers or a flat palm, they soon know if you are wound up, your body is stiffer and your movement less fluid, you hold you breath. The only time they get chased if if they refuse to be caught, and I will not let them stand. Eventually it's true they do drop their head but they know I am cross,so we make peace, they are caught, no grudges, and go back to our normal way of communication. I do not think a car is that subtle.
Click to expand...
Agree about the lack of subtlety - but what do we take from the fact they managed to get the horse to respond in a way that looks like join-up without subtle, human body language?
 
fburton said:
Agree about the lack of subtlety - but what do we take from the fact they managed to get the horse to respond in a way that looks like join-up without subtle, human body language?
Click to expand...


As I read it the horse was effectively chased until it submits, which is what usually what horses do to dominate a new member of a herd. The chased either submits or eventually will challenge that domination. It a very old fashioned way of controlling horses.
If you watch a herd of brood mares the leader very often only has to flick an ear to communicate, it's agreed with a couple of squeals on meeting an the odd bite who is going to be the leader. Boss es are not physically stronger, but tend to be problem solvers and use their brain, and others learn by watching them. I prefer that leader/teacher model.
I am very lucky that all my living room windows over look my paddocks so l am able to see how they interact all the daylight hours.
 
Boss are not physically stronger, but tend to be problem solvers and use their brain, and others learn by watching them
Click to expand...

You're not kidding! I once watched three horses come in for food. A 16 h on one side, a 16.2 on the other and a 32 inch mini in the middle. She tossed her head towards each one, and they dropped back. It was hilarious :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top