Monty Roberts??

yes, sorry, i meant 'broken' purely in the sense of learning to have a rider on board and did not mean to confuse the issue with the whole semantics/broken spirit thing!! sorry, it's a hard one as 'backing' doesn't really convey it either - anyway, that's a good point and true of course about the 5 minutes/whole day thing, but still it's 'using the panic response' (MR's own words) to create a quick 'bond' wiht the horse so that it will stand still and submit to the saddle, then the rider etc. It does look nice and simple, but can also be explained simply by the 'horse has been taught that if it runs, it will have to run more, but if it shows specific signs and stands still then human-acting-as-predator will stop acting as predator, and all is well' rule. Exactly the same as the BHS cure for bolting - make it run more. I am simplifying this stuff obviously and i guess poeple will use that as an argument against what i'm saying - obviously there is more to a join up than making it run (I have done them) - i just meant that it doesn't seem like a great foundation for a relationship wiht a horse.

Also, i think the idea that during a join up you're imitating horse behaviour is weird, becuase it's not, it's acting in a predaotry and very agressive and controlling manner. Horses do chase eachotehr off but not in that way at all - if you were approaching your horse as another horse would, on the contrary you would have your head low and approach in a very slow and probably sideways manner. I just think the whole thing is a bit confused.

the other stuff is not so bad, but join-ups are a really weird one, and personally i don't think they are what they seem at first look, at all.
 
LHS said:
I have seen Monty several times and I like his calm manner as much as his ideas tbh. When I first saw them I was rapped and yes its common sense but still nice to have things demonstrated.

However I last saw them at Your Horse Live in November and thought things had turned into a huge marketing / money spinning operation and it was a huge plug for his on- line university. The other thing was that the demo's were tired I felt and once you have seen a horse loaded or a horse introduced to water or a join up they should have introduced new material. These demo's weren't too successful either, Kelly's horse wouldn't load for example and Monty's seemed to take forever, not that there's a timetable but i'm sure the horses are worked with before coming on stage so to speak.

Also Kelly's commentating and priming of the owners began to be irritating.

Just MO though
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I've been to a few of Monty's demo's and volunteered my friends horse because he wouldn't loud very well and was terrified....

We were there the WHOLE time and the only time Monty saw the horses was when they put them in the round pen during the day just so it wasn't the first time they saw the pen in the evening and full of people so all scary ! He was not 'worked with' during the day by anyone, we never left him the whole time.

Monty asked us if he really didn't like loading because some people say their horses don't and then they just walk on which makes the whole thing look stupid, other than that, that was it....... in the evening he then worked with him as part of the demo and by the end of it he was walking up not even being lead.
 
I see your point Tamzinf.
Further to the panic response issue, I would be really interested to see the outcome of the heart monitoring that MR is doing when working with horses using his methods. That may give more insight into the impact on the horses stress levels that tapping into the fleeing response has (and the results may allay yours and others concerns). Although, in order to measure results accurately his methods would have to be compared and contrasted against those using other training/breaking methods while wearing the heart monitors. Not sure how attainable that sort of joined effort/cooperation would be realistically among horsemen and women that don't see eye to eye on best practices.
 
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yes, that's what i thought - i'm signed up to his news letter and had hoped they'd come through as it would be really interesting to see them. Other than that i'm not aware of comaprative phsyiological studies of different methods. There have been some comparing negative reinforcement studies (i.e. parelli/MR but not round-pen work) with positive reinforcement-based programmes, one focussing on ponies in rescue centres and one focussing on ponies in the 'wild' (I think it was the new forest) - in each study, the ponies were split into two groups and worked with with either one of those methods. both studies found that the positively trained ponies responded much quicker and wiht more confidence. wiht the rescue centre ones, they were ready to be rehomed faster and also responded better in new situations (i.e. less fearful). however, i don't know if there was physiological evidence to back that up or anything... would be interesting to know if anyone's heard of any?!
 
Its really interesting reading everyone's response in this thread. I went to see Monty first about 14/15 years ago (possibly a bit longer i cant remember). I was absolutely fascinated straight away, even my non horsey dad was impressed, he was a horseman through and through and was very careful in the way he explained the way things work.

I've seen him a number of times doing demos in the UK, and about 6/7 years ago, while holidaying in California i visited his ranch - which by the way is amazing. We met him there, and he was so nice, genuinelly interested in talking to me and my family about what he does, my horse and just general chit chat, we watched them work a young racehorse in his round pens (not him, one of the staff), the whole place was incredibly calm, and the horses looked fantastic.

I think the way he works is mostly common sense, but, I really think there are a majority of people out there who dont use common sense with horses.

In the past few years, I have become quite bored though with the salesman that Monty has become, I never ever feel he is saying you dont love your horse unless you buy this that or the other (as i have done watching a certain husband Wife due last name initialled with a P on TV) - however, Monty is now a salesman, the merchandise is now seemingly more important. I read 'The man who lsitens to horses' and 'Shy boy' both books fantastic - sadly more recently he seems to be producing the 'method' books over and over again, with very minor differences.

I think Monty has done some really great work with horses (and children - he fosters children too). I have used some of his methods, and read some of his books, but i doubt i'll pay any money to watch him in a demo again...
 
Agree with others - his methods are, on the whole, pretty good, but having been to one demo I will not bother going to others since it is the same stuff every time.

I think what everyone should remember is that there is no one way to handle horses which is perfect to the exclusion of all others - I like the more 'natural' ways of communicating my wishes to my horse, but am not averse to using what are seen as more 'traditional' methods if needed. For example, my pony was being a git to lead, and after trying the pressure and release stuff to no avail I put a chiffney on - problem solved in 5 mins, chiffney not used since and pony knows what he needs to do now.
 
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All the references to 'just common sense' are fine - but there is an old saying about common sense being the least common of all. I've never been to a demo and don't know a huge amount about his methods other than what I've seen on tv - but his heart seems to be in the right place regarding both animals and children.
 
Unfortunately I don't have time to participate much in this discussion, but I'd just like to say that as a helper on Monty Roberts tours for the past 3yrs or more, there most definitely is not any work done with the horses before the demos. If you are in any doubt about this, please volunteer as a helper at a demo (we're always needing more helpers, there's some heavy kit to shift!), and you'll be able to see for yourselves. It seems incredible to me that this myth is still going around!

Also I'd like to point out that whilst it would be lovely not to need to market the books / DVDs etc, Monty is now 75yrs old, and can't be with us forever - surely it seems fair for him to promote the information that he's able to leave us (which is why he's developed the Online Learning Centre).

The study (which I was also involved in) that was carried out last year will be published at some point, but for it to have the maximum relevance and respect it should be published in a peer reviewed journal as the randomised controlled trial that it was, not just given out in Monty's newsletter, and as anyone involved in research in any way will know, this doesn't happen in a hurry! The study was not designed by Monty, it was designed by a very well respected and well published scientist, and so Monty is not the one in control of the writing up and publishing (which is of course a good thing, otherwise it would be biased!).

And one last thing - yes it's all common sense, but unfortunately common sense isn't so common! If you've been around horses all your life then you'll (hopefully) be using many NH techniques already, and often it's great to understand why what you do works so well when many of your friends struggle. If you haven't, then experience is of course one of the main ways of developing this 'common sense', but you can speed up the process by learning from books / DVDs / demos.

Hope this clears a couple of things up, and please, please come along and help at a demo - Kelly is touring in May and Monty will be back in the UK in the Autumn, contact the office via www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk to register your interest as a helper.

Sue
 
I Love the way that some of you slag off various methods of horse training and say " yeah well it's all common sense " etc yet SO many of you post on here with tales of your nappy or rearing or bargy etc horses, help what can I do?!!!

I have had horses for many many years and have found that by being open minded and embracing new methods ie NH techniques, I have achieved great success with my screwed up, ' old school' trained dutch warmblood mare.

Showman or not, people like Kelly marks, Monty and the Parelli's have achieved great success with training horses. Every body makes mistakes. So don't be so bigoted in your opinions and give other training methods a go and when you have failed or succeeded THEN you are able to make an educated argument.
 
I've seen Monty twice, both many years ago. He is a master reader and communicator with horses, but also very much a showman. The first time I went he asked for a riding volunteer from the audience as his usual jockey was injured from falling off the day before (hmm). I nearly volunteered... and was v glad i didn't when, 20 mins later, the volunteer guy ended up on the floor... Monty rushed things for the demo, to get the horse ridden on both reins at all paces within 20 mins, ish. i don't think that's fair to the horse, ever.
When I saw Pat Parelli, by contrast, he spent a lot of time working/playing with an obviously difficult horse (long history, and we could tell from its reactions that it was 3/4 spoilt), and (alone) got to the point of leaning over it, without a problem. he then said "i could sneak a ride on this horse today, but i won't, it would be too soon, he needs more time..."
although PP's also a big showman and obv good at the whole moneyspinning mooneyism thing, i really admired him for that... the horse needing time was more important than the demo... as it should always be. horse people are watching, they understand that, surely.

no comment on Kelly Marks as i've never seen her, but have heard only good things... a rarity in the horse world!
 
Lots of interesting comments on this thread!

A close friend of mine had a horse (lets call him Bert) selected for the trials which Monty was a part of last year. I think I'm right in saying that all the horses had to be unbacked five year old geldings, Bert fulfilled the criteria, he was a laid back youngster, still physically immature, and I think all he'd had on him before going for the trial was a headcollar and a rug. He had also always lived out.

On the trial (which I think was four weeks) all the horses lived in, they left their stables for training each day, but never had turn out. Bert was selected to be backed by traditional means, and at the end of the trial period, he was being ridden in all three paces, trotting over tarps, and jumping about 18", cross poles and straight bars, BUT he was a very unhappy horse, tail swishing, humping his back. There were other horses there who had been broken using NH methods (I don't know all the details) and although they did less in the demo, apparently they looked a lot happier, they could walk and trot, they moved happily on a loose rein instead of Bert who had to take a contact, and the NH horses just stood still when the rider dismounted, then followed them around happily.

The upshot for Bert is that when he came home and his owner took him into her school to lunge prior to a first ride, he went completely nuts. He is still berserk in the school, it took him a couple of months to change from an unhappy horse who was unpredictable back to a sweety, he hasn't been ridden at all, and is going for rebacking with a sympathetic local person who will give him as long as it needs to become a happy ridden horse for his owner.

It'll be interesting to read the full report when it's released.
 
I know a horse that got chosen for one of his demos. Believe me the thing was like the devil incarnate and Monty turned him around within 10 minutes!! However the owners were told that they were gonna have to follow it up and it wasn't an instant long term fix. Of course they didn't, so the horse is still a total sod.

I agree alot of what Monty says is common sense, however he certainly does have a way.

I personally cannot stick Kelly Marks. I saw a demo of hers years ago. She didn't seem to have planned what she was gonna say/do and it was terrible. Saying that I do have a couple of her books and what they say is very good.
 
I've never been to any of the demo's but I did help out on Kelly Marks's 5 day foundation course last year, met a friend for life and although I was only helping (couldnt afford the £500 fee to do the actual course), the girl I met on it thought it was wonderful.

I see a lot of comments regarding it all being common sense but in my experience - and I came to horses late - common sense doesnt always prevail!!!

I am new to owning my own and have found that most of the people I come into contact with are not of the IH/NH mind set!!!

Have had a few problems with my pony and the comments are always 'naughty pony/give it a good smack' school!!! Nobody has said about getting her teeth checked or her back, just smack her and 'make' her do as she is told!!!

I never trained my dog by smacking him!!!

I greatly admire the IH/NH way of dealing with horses and would put it over the old school way of thinking IMHO
 
Beatrice5 said:
I first saw Monty on one of his very first tours in 1989 ( I think ) and back then he was a lot less of a show man. I agree it's common sense but lets face it there are a lot of people out there lacking common sense....! But having seen him a few weeks ago it has become much more of an show. I was a little dissapionted with his ridding and use of spurs and a very long shank bit. But hey I don't ride Western so maybe I cannot comment.
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I totally agree. I was the same. Really liked him when i saw him years ago but couldn't relate so much with him more recently.

I personally have no issue with the showman ship stuff and I think its probably evolved from the fact he does most of his stuff in the states. But each to their own :) What I really like is that he was essentially the first person to make an 'alternative' way of thinking pretty main stream and brought it to the masses in a way which was easy to see / understand.

There's often cases when you see something happen and think - but that's just common sense. But as Beatrice says - you'd be amazed how often that goes array with some peeps. :)
 
Hedwards said:
I've seen him a number of times doing demos in the UK, and about 6/7 years ago, while holidaying in California i visited his ranch - which by the way is amazing.
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I'm green with envy. Only seen it on his website and regardless of anything else the place looks out of this world ")

Hedwards said:
I
In the past few years, I have become quite bored though with the salesman that Monty has become, I never ever feel he is saying you dont love your horse unless you buy this that or the other (as i have done watching a certain husband Wife due last name initialled with a P on TV) - however, Monty is now a salesman, the merchandise is now seemingly more important. I read 'The man who lsitens to horses' and 'Shy boy' both books fantastic - sadly more recently he seems to be producing the 'method' books over and over again, with very minor differences.
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I wonder though if this is because he's getting an old man and just isn't capable of doing the same physical work he would normally like to do. I'd think his overheads must be huge and if nothing else, its hard to give up a lifestyle you've become used to. By pushing the merchandise at least he's not out there taking a beating on his bod :)

But who knows. :)
 
ticketyboo, stick around here, any time anyone reports that they are having behavioural issues with a horse, there are invariably lots of us saying "check back, teeth, saddle" (AGAIN if necessary, by a different 'expert' if possible, rather than saying "smack it one."
very few horses are deliberately awkward, they invariably have a reason (usually a physical one) for what they do, it can be very hard to pinpoint where the problem is stemming from, though.
as Gerd Heuschmann says, "the horse has no bad intentions, he only reacts". i think that should be carved into the wall of every horsey establishment...

Spot_the_Risk, that's a real shame about your friend's horse, but it isn't necessarily a condemnation of 'traditional methods', just of whoever dealt with that particular horse. there are utterly brilliant as well as utterly appalling people working in every area with horses, i think.
i really hope he comes right with time.
 
QRto zoeshiloh, MFH9, Rowreach

I'm with you three. NH is common sense and an open mind to what the horse is saying.

No amount of videos or equipment will transform the majority of wannabe horsemasters (used figuratively). Some people just can do it. I object to money-spinning and show.
 
Someone mentioned BHS methods and courses V. the Monty etc methods.....and I do wonder who comes out of these courses with a real insight to horse behaviour and psychocology. Years ago BHS was the ONLY way to gain any credibility in the horse world, if you had the qualifications you were accepted everywhere, but the knowledge gained was based purely on a practical knowledge of horse keeping and a very narrow and 'correct' way of riding. The common sense mentioned applied only to how to tie a haynet, treat minor injuries, get a hunter fit etc. And all of THAT came from the army method of keeping horses. There was no looking at the individual horse, just old fashioned advice for dealing with a problem horse which often involved tying up, strapping down, confinement and so on.

Love or hate Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks, also Mark Rashid, they have opened up a fantastic new world for horse owners. You don't have to buy into it financially, duallys are great but you can get away with doing the groundwork with an ordinary headcollar if your confident. It's all in the body language. You can cherry pick from all the natural horsemanship people, mix and match!

Thinking more, maybe it's a cultural thing. We've been so schooled (arrrgh pun) in the UK to accept the BHS type way. As a nation we do so love tradition don't we? And this AMERICAN person comes along and tells us we've been doing it all wrong for years, well huh, what does he know? The cheek, telling us what to do!! Waving his stetson around and trying to make us BUY things! And getting chummy with the Queen, good god, what is the world coming to? If I had a moustache ( I haven't, I'm a girl) it would be positively bristling...damn foreigners....
 
SheadonSaffron said:
If you've been around horses all your life then you'll (hopefully) be using many NH techniques already, and often it's great to understand why what you do works so well when many of your friends struggle.
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Argh, sorry Sue, but I find this so patronising!

I started messing about with horses in 1975, correct me if I'm wrong but there was no "NH" then. My current trainer has taught me loads, she, and I, are most definitely not "NH"! This is what gets my goat - the cultish followers (not saying you are this Sue, but this is how I find them) who decry all of the rest of us as cruel horse beaters. I am no way, nohow cruel. I am also most definitely not "NH" and I will absolutely not have myself labelled as such, even if by default.

I went down that road, noone "NH" could help me whatsoever. So I got a "traditional" (BHS, enemy-of-the-state, whatever you want to call it) instructor, and we sorted it. And no, absolutely not with any violence, whatsoever.

Monty et al prey on the novicey, reasonably affluent and middle aged female. Many of whom find themselves overhorsed, for many reasons. I was one of those ladies, and of course met many others during my slightly lost phase :) so feel qualified to comment.

A few years ago my lad refused to load in his new lorry. My instructor sorted it (again, without violence) in a few hours for £20. Foir a laugh, I tried emailing my local "RA" for his equivalent rate. Minimum £120, more likely £200+, and the problem (which, I should mention, was apparently MY problem!) of getting his set of massive boards there that he required to load the horse (and no, the massive fee did not include, subsequently transporting those boards to every event I chose to go to).

And a "dually" (basic headcollar with a basic addition to the noseband) is £39 - that says it all for me.

I would love to know what Monty's (and Kelly's!) personal fortunes are. I know a few wonderful horsepeople, who are kind and knowledgeable and do horses an awful lot of good and make it their mission to do so. They most certainly have not made money though!
 
Tennessee said:
I've read through all the above posts and everyone has very valid points. I didn't know who to answer and quote etc as I agree with pretty much all of it and points from all views!!

I think the problem is that there are so many types of horses and problems, and also a huge number of training methods with differing solutions, although obviously even though I have said its 'the problem', its also a very good thing, as it gives us an infinite number of things to try.

For me, no one method or person is the best or the worst (excepting the ones that beat into submission each and every time!) and I have found that reading the horse and working to find a solution for that particular horse and that particular problem on that day is the only thing that works for me. That means learning all the time and studying each method I come across then using what parts I can to help the horse.

But its made easier as I LOVE learning, am a book worm, a demo and clinic addict and a dvd lover when I get the time!!!!!!! :p

PS. I have the Parelli dvd's, Monty's books, Richard Maxwell's books, Kelly's books, read a lot of Mchael Peace stuff, working on some others, trained as a BHS instructor, and attended a lot of demo's. Confused doesn't cover it!!!!! :D:D
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Well said, It is lovely to read an open mind.

FWIW, my horse had Kelly Marks number 2 come to see him, when he cameback from loan he was a mess. Gary was great, got my boy working in a better outline without any tack than I had ever done with tack. What made me respect him more was when he said to me ' you are the only one who can get him back, he listens to me but has no respect for me'.

My horse and me are now closer than we have ever been, and BTW a one 2 one was not expensive, I only had one consultation and it was around the same as a riding lesson.

I was always a cynic but now I am converted, but as an owner I had to put the work in.

PS... still do not like Parelli
 
I did find it quite interesting and could see sense in some of the methods used in Parelli until I watched the Linda Parelli video. After that I lost all respect for it, and now think it is a complete load of ****. I can think of lots of methods which are a lot kinder than that used by the Parelli's which will gain a horse's trust and respect for you.

I have never done any Parelli with my pony, yet his love and trust for me is clear and we have a great understanding. It just goes to show, just by spending time with a horse and bonding with it naturally you can get the same results you get from Parelli, and in a less harsh, less aggressive way.
 
gala said:
Someone mentioned BHS methods and courses V. the Monty etc methods.....and I do wonder who comes out of these courses with a real insight to horse behaviour and psychocology. Years ago BHS was the ONLY way to gain any credibility in the horse world, if you had the qualifications you were accepted everywhere, but the knowledge gained was based purely on a practical knowledge of horse keeping and a very narrow and 'correct' way of riding. The common sense mentioned applied only to how to tie a haynet, treat minor injuries, get a hunter fit etc. And all of THAT came from the army method of keeping horses. There was no looking at the individual horse, just old fashioned advice for dealing with a problem horse which often involved tying up, strapping down, confinement and so on.

Love or hate Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks, also Mark Rashid, they have opened up a fantastic new world for horse owners. You don't have to buy into it financially, duallys are great but you can get away with doing the groundwork with an ordinary headcollar if your confident. It's all in the body language. You can cherry pick from all the natural horsemanship people, mix and match!

Thinking more, maybe it's a cultural thing. We've been so schooled (arrrgh pun) in the UK to accept the BHS type way. As a nation we do so love tradition don't we? And this AMERICAN person comes along and tells us we've been doing it all wrong for years, well huh, what does he know? The cheek, telling us what to do!! Waving his stetson around and trying to make us BUY things! And getting chummy with the Queen, good god, what is the world coming to? If I had a moustache ( I haven't, I'm a girl) it would be positively bristling...damn foreigners....
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If you think this is an American way of handling horses - or in any way new you should read some books by Lucy Rees.
 
It do also give you an insight, to how he says, he learned and why he wanted to train a horse "with what he learned from the wild mustangs", while he was a child.
I believe we can all learn some thing from a lot of different sources, but I personally prefer to learn from some one, I believe is in it, for the horses best interest and not the money.

I know a man who was with Monty many many years ago, before he became what he is today. He was telling us about breaking contest, take a unbroke lightly handled horse, in the round pen and see how long it takes to get on it. In my eyes, that puts him and the students, there was doing it, in the same class as Linda Parelli in that 4.5min video clip.
 
Look at it my way. I have a difficult horse that some else has balls up. 1) do I take it back to square one, try and gain it it's confidence in me and knowing it will take my a lot of time and likely 1 step forward 10 steps back.
or do the Monty Roberts or Parillie, fast fix,sell on horse and next owners problem!
All lot of it comes down to commonsense, listening to a lot of posts upteem have over horsed themselfs, mostly Dressage (warmbloods).
If you need a fast fix with your horse sell up and go back to riding school.
 
having supplied horses for monty roberts and kelly marks none are the wild untouched mustangs! before the demos they do work with them. and they do belt them! (as req versus behaviour presented) they are not nicely nicely. they do expect a horse to respect their space. but they do get results. and they are good horsemen. and they take no ****. (prior to demo). BUT they have a market of insecure riders and handlers who buy into the whole package. yes you can play for months doing the games on the floor BUT the horse will still buck you off cos he knows you are wobbly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! cos he can!
 
Have utmost respect for the guy. One of our horses was used by his company at the royal show in the NAC year before last as a demo for a seriously bad (won't/dangerous) loader.

Superb results. By the end of the day they taught us so much and yes - he loaded like a dream. Oh and continued to do so. Met him at YHL last year (didn't know who I was speaking to being a not very horsey person) to thank the company for the work they did and the difference they made and the guy I was talking to was a thoroughly nice person.

Wife told me five minutes later who I'd just had a good chat with and shook hands with. Queue embarrased grin... Monty?!??

Have to say over here I recommend his methods and yes he is a genuinely nice down to earth fella.
 
MFH9 said:
I wouldn't use him personally at all; I wouldn't let him touch my horses with a barge pole for reasons I won't go into but suffice to say, I don't like hypercrites.
Most of his 'teachings' are plain old common sense that I was taught years ago when I first started riding; it was all part and parcel of it. I feel genuinely sorry for people learning now as so many times, they're not taught the basic horse handling skills we were taught right from the beginning and as a matter of course which make them easy targets for someone like him.
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How true!

Having been present in the hours leading up to one of his demos several times I can honestly say that what you see once the "curtains" go up is very , very different from the " dress rehersal". They also pick their demo horses with care!

I just think it is very sad that people overhorse themselves - or cause problems with their horses through lack of knowledge and then spend fortunes looking for the "magic wand" to wave and make it all better.
 
have you ever tried to ride one away that was broken in 20 mins?????????????????????????????????????????????? i can get one tacked up and worked in 20 mins and sat on and ridden but TOMORROW is another day! these are all EXPERT horsemen who will work for another month with these horses. there is no quick break/quick fix we are dealing with three quarter tonne animals with a mind of their own. it comes down to respect and manners! AND just remeber you only break them once
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and once learnt the nappy f off rout you 3ill have to batter them. yes you can stroke them, give them treats etc but at the end of the day they are working you. they buck you off .................... cos they can!!!! unless you a good jockey. if you are a fat middle aged with confidence issues back off and buy a wooden one! or a very nice confidence giver who is a saint,.
 
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