Moral dilemma BE question.

[Optimist]

It’s Friday morning, I’m bored at work and was wondering…… We all have stories of for example being given 20 penalties xc when it probably shouldn’t have been. For all those times it has gone wrong and you may have appealed, I was wondering what you would do if the situation was reversed, ie had a stop xc, a pole down sj or missed a fence and it was not recorded/picked up by the judge. I really don’t know what I would do as it has never happened to me, but I do know people it has, and they generally keep quiet… Is this OK or not?

In the summer, I witnessed a mother laying into a child (not her own) in a JRN as the child had allegedly had 2 poles down sj but the judge had noticed only one. This meant said child was placed above the mother’s child. It was a disgraceful display of competitive mother syndrome but was she right to feel that way (obviously her behaviour was totally out of order) or is it a case of things go wrong so often with horses that if you get a luck break, so be it?

Really interested to hear your opinions/stories.

 

[KatB]

Haha! I've seen someone have a stop SJing infront of the judges box, and they got given a clear....very tempted to report it, but tbh the horses record was crap anyway so would have made any difference! Also seen more poles fall than are recorded... generally, I think people keep quiet tbh! It very rarely makes a difference in the grand scale... however, if I was loosing out on a placing...

 

[I_A_P]

I have had it happen to me a while ago with another horse where i had 3 poles down but they only recorded me as having two down. However i was not aware of it at the time and only when i got home and looked up the results that i realised.

I was not placed so didnt worry about but if i had been giving a placing because of it i think i would have felt quite guilt and probably said something.

 

[PaddyMonty]

I have been given a clear SJ (bsja) when I had 4 faults. Kepping quiet would have put me in the money but I told the judges. I really cant see any pleasure in getting a placing if you know you didn't deserve it.

On the other hand, whilst working in XC control during a BE event the BE steward came in to the box to watch his daughter go round XC. One of the fence judges gave her 20 penalties. All in the box agreed that the FJ was wrong to do so but the steward refused to go against the judge in case it looked like an abuse of position. What a crappy situation to be in.

 

[milliepops]

I think I'd like to keep quiet... but would feel like a total fraud!

But experience shows that I usually end up pointing it out, to my detriment. Like the time I crashed through a SJ and should have kept on going, but I stopped, waited for them to ring bell, let them put the fence back up and came round again, knocking it down... so got a stop and a knockdown. Dur........

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

sort of similar...i once completed an elem test complete with bandages, judge didnt notice and i won the class.
that was about 5 years ago, still not sure if id fess up now or not.....

 

[seabiscuit]

I would tell them, but experience has shown me that telling them has never got anywhere, the judges decision still stands! I have one friend that appealed to B.E about a stop that she swore that she had, but it made no difference and she got given a clear round ( and thus got a point for a double clear in her first novice! )

Also I have been given a stop for a horse that apparently stepped back at a drop fence when I swear that the horse had never stepped back ( he was extremely brave and never stepped back at a drop in his life!) it was no mean co-incidence that the fence judge happened to be someone who lived in my village who had always been rather jealous of my eventing...

The B.E stewards wont listen to you either way!

 

[FairyCakes]

I think I would 'fess up tbh.
Baring in mind with my last horse we werent really eventing competitivly (sp?) so it wouldnt of made a difference.
If i gained a placing, and owning up would drop me out of them i am really not sure what i would do. Never been in that situation

 

[TheMule]

I have witnessed jumps down being missed and always go and politely tell the sj judge. I would always fess up if was my own case- it's fairer on all.

 

[dieseldog]

I got given 4 faults in the summer, instead of 8, would have been second, but I told the judges. I have been given a stop at BE when the horse never stopped - that was upsetting.

 

[claire_p2001]

I would fess up I was in a discovery at Patchetts and someone completely missed a jump judges didn't notice so they beat me even though i went clear. I did complain to the judge but they said they didn't see it. I would feel awful standing in the line up knowing that i had cheated!

 

[KatB]

Yeah the other side is I was given an E when I retired XC...

I had come down a drop a litle bit keenly, circled so I know I'd be given a 20 as it was an A and B, jumped the next fence and had a stop, so I put my hand up to reture as I didnt want the possibilty of multiple stops/E on his record at that time. Still got given an E

Also know someone ( a very well known rider actually

) taking his 5yr old round its first PN. He apparently (I know the fence judge) cantered straight past a fence and carried on.... so effectively E'ing himself, and the fence judge recorded this... however, when he saw the result he swore blind he hadnt missed the fence and the fence judge must not have seen him jump it!!

His appeal was won and he won the class...

he fence judge was very experienced too...

 

[Rouletterose]

[ QUOTE ]
It’s Friday morning, I’m bored at work and was wondering…… We all have stories of for example being given 20 penalties xc when it probably shouldn’t have been. For all those times it has gone wrong and you may have appealed, I was wondering what you would do if the situation was reversed, ie had a stop xc, a pole down sj or missed a fence and it was not recorded/picked up by the judge. I really don’t know what I would do as it has never happened to me, but I do know people it has, and they generally keep quiet… Is this OK or not?

In the summer, I witnessed a mother laying into a child (not her own) in a JRN as the child had allegedly had 2 poles down sj but the judge had noticed only one. This meant said child was placed above the mother’s child. It was a disgraceful display of competitive mother syndrome but was she right to feel that way (obviously her behaviour was totally out of order) or is it a case of things go wrong so often with horses that if you get a luck break, so be it?

Really interested to hear your opinions/stories.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't event, don't SJ anymore, just play end enjoy dressage, but I think that it is down to your own conscience!!

If I had had a fence down or something similar and no one noticed, then I would definately have said and told the judges they missed something, theres no pleasure in winning or being placed if you cheated to get it!

 

[sam1am]

Not quite what your looking for but i have a funny story,

I was walking xc with friends,
I was doing my first novice on this horse they were doing pre-novice, pretty much knew the track like the back of my hand as its our local event.
wasnt paying great attention!

Anyway okish dressage, clear SJ ready for xc, flew round soo happy with horse, very excited at the thought might be placed as there was hardly any clears sj.
Checked result board, was given a big fat E for xc.
Couldnt figure out why, went to steward(also happened to be course designer) he told me fence judge said i missed a fence
I said what fence!?

HE said' the red house with the pink roof'
-no.7
me- 'how in gods name do u think i could miss that stupidly garey fence, it not like its hard to see',

i was getting quite angry at this point!

He kept trying to innterupt me and i wouldnt let him

Eventually after i took a breath he said, 'There were 2 pink houses' and walked off, leaving me very red faced!!!

It transpires, the second house was on dogleg to the first in a dip, the PN's just jumped the first house, novices did both,
moral of story? pay attention when walking courses!!!

 

[Optimist]

Great story sam_i_am, good of you to share it!! Similar thing happened to a friend in a 1*, however there wasn't a sneakily hidden 2nd element - fence judge swore blind she had missed the fence and stewards were upholding the decision when friend turned up with a photo in hand of her jumping the fence!!!

 

[dieseldog]

[ QUOTE ]

Great story sam_i_am, good of you to share it!! Similar thing happened to a friend in a 1*, however there wasn't a sneakily hidden 2nd element - fence judge swore blind she had missed the fence and stewards were upholding the decision when friend turned up with a photo in hand of her jumping the fence!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

That happened to my sister, she got eliminated as they told her she jumped the wrong side of a flag - which would have been impossible to do, but the photography was at that fence - took a photo of her jumping it properly - still wouldn't change their minds though

I was doing the scoring at a BE event and the results were coming in and loads of riders were being eliminated. When we investigated it turned out that the fence judge had decided that they needed to go a certain side of a random fence post - those that didn't go the side she had decided was right were eliminated.

easily sorted though.

 

[Booboos]

It's happened to me twice:

First time I did an appalling dressage test but got 64% to win the class. I told them this could not be my mark, turns out my mark was 46% to come last but someone had transcribed it wrong!

Second time I was in the timed section of the first ever BHS hunter trial. My time was recorded when I went in, jumped a few fine, got to a gate that was impossible to open because the wind was blowing against me. Had a couple of goes and then stood to one side for the next competitor who was approaching, she got stuck, the next one got stuck, by the time there were 7 of us stuck, the judge let us dismount and do it on foot. It still took ages to clear the backlog, but eventually got going again. Went clear the rest of the way but was expecting an E because of the gate, no apparently I had the fastest time! I tried to explain to the secretary that this couldn't be right but she would not even talk to me other than to say "the judges' decision is final"

 

[VRIN]

I would always admit it... can't see any satisfaction in achieving a score dishonestly..

 

[wallyevent]

Someone I worked for fell off on landing from a drop fence on the cross country in an intermediate, it was announced over the commentry but the fence judge obviously didn't notice as he was given a clear and went on to be placed! He didn't fess up!!

 

[jennystreek]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah the other side is I was given an E when I retired XC...

I had come down a drop a litle bit keenly, circled so I know I'd be given a 20 as it was an A and B, jumped the next fence and had a stop, so I put my hand up to reture as I didnt want the possibilty of multiple stops/E on his record at that time. Still got given an E

Also know someone ( a very well known rider actually

) taking his 5yr old round its first PN. He apparently (I know the fence judge) cantered straight past a fence and carried on.... so effectively E'ing himself, and the fence judge recorded this... however, when he saw the result he swore blind he hadnt missed the fence and the fence judge must not have seen him jump it!!

His appeal was won and he won the class...

he fence judge was very experienced too...

[/ QUOTE ]

same thing has happened to me at an event - I retired because I knew it was quite likely that I would have a stop at the penultimate fence due to the way she had been going round the course (or not going!!). I also didnt want another E on our record. I got it anyway though.

Did make me think afterwards though that perhaps i deserved the E anyway. After all, what does retirement actually stand for? Should it not be that you retire if the horse loses a shoe / goes lame, or you as a rider cant carry on for physical reasons? If its a case though of the horse just not wanting to do it out of naughtiness / confidence issues, then perhaps you deserve an E? Signifies that the course was too much at that point in time?!

Sorry, digressing slightly, but I have seen so many people getting one or two stops on the course and then pulling up to retire at the last fence. probably then selling the horse and saying that its never had a stop XC, and making up some kind of excuse about it having a virus or something that day, hence needing to retire?

 

[KatB]

No I agree normally Hammiehamlet, and would have carried on if it was just one stop regardless. The fact the first 20 was my error and the horse was up for sale was why I didn't want to continue with another stop there, as it wasn't deserved for him!!

 

[BeckyD]

I would have to tell people I'm afraid. The guilt would kill me otherwise. Although at Ron's 2nd ever jumping show (2 foot 3" class - I was the only adult on the only horse!) we had two down, and yet were placed 5th. I didn't quite understand it as I was sure there were more people who had done better than me. I didn't query it as I had been too busy chatting to pay attention to everyone's rounds and I really wasn't sure either way. I still feel guilty for not going to double-check though.

 

[LEC]

Well I will not mention what happened to me then as you would all be disgusted!

 

[Optimist]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I will not mention what happened to me then as you would all be disgusted!

[/ QUOTE ]

Go on.. pleeeeeeeese! You know you want to

 

[Saints_fan88]

A girl from my pony club was leading a 3 day at Mk one year and jumped the wrong last fence. As they were all in a line the fence judge mustn't have been concentrating/able to see properly so she was given a clear and was pretty set to win as the horse was a very reliable showjumper. Anyways her mother - yes her pony club mother !!!

- fessed up and she got the big E, right decision and she gained a lot of my respect but obviously a big disappointment for the young girl!

 

[kirkton]

I used to be a bsja judge, now I know it's not rocket science to watch a horse jump 10 jumps and record the result on a bit of paper. However.....when you have been in a hot airless box for over 6 hours watching the same track over and over again you get a bit stir crazy. If someone comes in to ask you something ie question a decision of just 'what do you want for lunch' it is very easy to miss things.

If someone canters past a jump you do question your own judgement. And lets face it, if you give someone the big E and they did in fact jump the jump you are in deep poo! Even more so if their mother has it on video. So when in doubt you give the rider the benefit of the doubt!

However, I have definitely see pro riders miss out jumps and then come to the judges box and swear blind they jumped it. They can be real bullies if their owners are there and they feel stupid for jumping the wrong track.

 

[kirkton]

...and twice....I have gone into a jump off of a bsja class and say the jump off course was 3, 5, 6, 7, 1, 8. I have been so freaked out by how huge the jumps are that when the bell has gone I've just automatically gone and jumped number 1 as the first fence instead of number 3.

Once is stupid but TWICE!!!!

 

[wench]

Last BE event I took nag to, got eliminated in SJ (no surprise there). However, judge marked me down for a refusal at fence 2; unfortuantly, it wasnt "really" a refusal, horse was a good five strides out from the jump and he was napping to get to the entrance to the warm up ring. (I dont know if you can get eliminated for that, or if it counts towards it though!)

 

[TableDancer]

A few years ago (quite a few, maybe 8 or 9??) a friend of mine was in the N at Springhill. She got muddled in her dressage test but the judge never rang the bell, she didn't do any walk at all and turned up the centre line at the end from the wrong direction but the judge never said anything! She ended up coming 3rd and when she picked up her sheet she had been given an 8 for her walk!!

 

[Lolo]

I'm not sure. I've had a pole before, and been given a clear round and I didn't fess up, went in to the jo and came 3rd. I didn't fess up because he went beautifully, and I like going fast in the jo

If it had been a bigger comp, I would have owned up. However, even if I hadn't done the jo I'd have come third as there were only 2 clears.