Moral dilemma

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BBP

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Friend has seen a nice horse. Very nice. But a few odd things about the viewing. Friend arrived early and horse was just being brought in but it took sellers 10mins to come back to the gate and let friend in to yard. Horse was brought out of stable and was very shut down and unreactive, not particularly interested in friend but just stood there. Horse flinched every time sellers touched it. Horse didn't really put a foot wrong ridden and has potential to be a lovely horse.

Doing some Google detectiving at home afterwards, it turns out seller is a notorious dealer well known on here for a very unpleasant YouTube video. If friend had known before hand they wouldn't have gone. There is a bit of a moral dilemma in that it's a nice horse with great potential at a good price but friend feels similarly to me about lining the pockets of anyone who is known to mistreat animals. I am also concerned about why it took so long for them to let friend on to yard after horse was in, whether that could potentially be enough time to drug a horse (not saying they did but could it be done that fast).

What would your thoughts be in this situation? Would you buy from a notorious dealer? What sort of mental problems could have had the foundations already laid by rough treatment of a very young and green horse? Thanks.
 
I think there are so many risk factors when buying a new horse that if I had any doubts at all about the horse or the sellers honesty I would in most circumstances walk away. And I agree I wouldn't want to line the pockets of people who mistreat animals.

A horse not interested in its surroundings and flinching to the touch rings alarm bells, is your friend looking for a project? I have taken on plenty and they are hard work and nothing is ever guaranteed, although if they do eventually come right it is very rewarding.
 
The ten minutes would really bother me. Yes, it's long enough for sedalin on the gums to work, and for acp into a muscle to work. If there was no explanation for the delay then I'd be pretty sure the horse was drugged, given the dealer's reputation and the horse being shut down.
 
Well I would probably buy the horse after the vet had been all over it like a rash .
Nothing I like better than turning a closed down horse in a cheeky pal it's so rewarding .
But ...... I would tell a friend to walk away if she determined perhaps have another try of the horse ,horses can be very closed down in unhappy situations.
 
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I have a livery here that came indirectly from the same dealer, the one I suspect you went to, it is a dilemma as buying from them keeps the business going but they will have some good genuine horses, such as the mare in my yard, that end up with them for no reason other than the owners circumstances, I don't think the breeder of my livery would have had any idea who was buying her much loved horse, cons work both ways, dealers sometimes pose as private buyers to get nice types cheap.

If I was to go ahead I would want a 5 stage, obviously with bloods and I would want to be there for the vetting just to cover every possibility, 10 mins is more than enough time to give a sedative and for it to take effect, my own horse zones out immediately he gets sedalin and needs very little to have an effect on him.

The effect of rough treatment will vary depending on the horse, some will come round very quickly once they are away from the cause, others, usually the more sensitive types, may have long lasting memories.

I would probably walk away but it is not always easy to do so.
 
If the horse is really what she want go for it but have a five stage vetting with bloods and be prepared to fight hard and use the law if there is anything wrong with the horse that warrants returning it and getting a refund.

In my experience a mistreated horse needs a quiet environment and gentle handling with the goal of build a bonding of trust with just one person at first. I had a beautiful pony that had been beaten and rounded up with trials bike to catch, I spent a lot of time near him and then gradually with him until he knew me and we developed a great relationship but it took time. He had such a problem with men we had him 18 months before my Dad could get near him; it broke my Dad's heart especially as he was my previous pony's special person.
 
Seen quite a few horses this dealer has sold being punted on after a few weeks "from the field" and cheaply, which would say to me they are still up to the same old tricks.

I would be very wary = don't touch with a barge pole.
 
Thank you. It is quite a tough one as I feel to buy from them just perpetuates the business and the methods they may use but equally it isn't the horses fault. I think whilst friend is extremely capable and is happy to work with a blank canvas, they have seen the trials and tribulations I have been through with my bonkers little black pony and would like a quieter life than that! If she does go ahead it would certainly have a full vetting with bloods and ideally a second ride. I have some investigative and criminal interviewing skills from what I do for a living so perhaps I can help with getting relevant details on record.
 
Only if your friend is a good confident rider, and by nature a risk taker.
This is likely a massive gamble that could need time and patience behind the scenes.
There is also the risk of big vets bills. Knackered horses can and do frequently pass vettings.
 
I have to admit I'd be heartbroken if my horse flinched every time I touched it. Just want to lead the horse away and make it feel safe. Yes horse is advertised as just a few days ridden since backed but video shows it jumping cross country.
 
a few years ago I went with someone to what I think is the same dealer to look at a very cheap pony that had done quite a bit of jumping, we were suspicious as he should have been much more money, he too looked very switched off and was quite thin, they rode him and he jumped everything they put him at and it was pouring with rain with thunder and lightning, friend then rode and he didn't put a foot wrong, we did go over him with a fine tooth comb and he had a few small sarcoids which I think is the reason he was cheap, he did look a sorry looking soul and my friend took a chance and bought him we picked him up 2 days later, he lived at my yard for 7 months and he was a darling to handle, it didn't take much to get him weight on I just put him out on my rested field everyday, friends daughter has jumped the pony affiliated for the last 2 years and won they have been offered quite a bit of money for him and his never ever put a foot wrong.

but they did take a chance and lucky for them it's worked out but I wouldn't recommend anyone do it, for the first month we were just waiting for him to do something horrible and thank god he didn't , if your really he'll bent on this horse get a 5 stage vetting done. good luck.
 
If it's the sellers I think it is, firstly there'll likely be more than just a sedative in it's system and secondly it wont be the psychological damage that's the problem.
 
You say your friend is happy to work with a blank canvas but by the sounds of it, this is not a blank canvas. If it has been doped, there is going to be a reason for it and your friend would have to work hard and patiently to attempt to undo whatever has happened and then reinstall new and desired behaviours. Is she up for a challenge like that? It might never come right? Can she afford to wait and see or does she want to get going on new pony straight away? If it doesn't go right, would she be prepared to have it PTS? If you think of all the negative things that could happen and she is still up for the challenge, then maybe go back and visit again. But if she's wavering, then I would advise her to walk far away.
 
I doubt you would be able to choose the vet for your 5 stage vetting so, as frustrating as it is and also with the horse's future life in the balance, I would also walk away.
 
Goldenstar said:
Well I would probably buy the horse after the vet had been all over it like a rash .
Nothing I like better than turning a closed down horse in a cheeky pal it's so rewarding .
But ...... I would tell a friend to walk away if she determined perhaps have another try of the horse ,horses can be very closed down in unhappy situations.
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Totally agree.

ihatework said:
Only if your friend is a good confident rider, and by nature a risk taker.
This is likely a massive gamble that could need time and patience behind the scenes.
There is also the risk of big vets bills. Knackered horses can and do frequently pass vettings.
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This too.

Me? Personally? I am a sucker for a sob story and I probably wouldn't be able to leave the poor thing there. But it would be Vetted to within an inch of their lives and bloods done.

If your friend does decide to go ahead, I would also say to ensure horse is iscolated at new yard incase of any viruses or infectious diseases that could be causing the "shut down" aspect...
 
Afraid to say I would walk away - it sounds like she could be opening herself up to a world of heartache by purchasing this horse.
 
Don't do it! They might get the odd gem, but they tend to sell them for huge prices. They are complete and utter scums bags. The stuff you have probably heard isn't the half of it.
 
Walk away walk away walk away. I know it's heartbreaking but if you want a riding horse and not just something to look pretty in the field, it's not worth the risk.

Horses with serious problems pass 5 stage vettings ALL THE TIME. We've had several lol. A couple we already knew had question marks, but were very cheap and worth a gamble, others we had no idea something was up. A vetting is no guarantee of anything at all. You could do additional x-rays and a neuro exam but even then things get through, and you've already halved your budget if a problem does show up.

If your friend wants a challenge and to feel like she's doing some good in the world, try HAPPA or the Blue Cross, or Heros racehorse rehoming charity. I've actually been to Heros and some of the horses there were stunning and could have reached the top in any discipline.
 
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KatPT said:
Friend has seen a nice horse. Very nice. But a few odd things about the viewing. Friend arrived early and horse was just being brought in but it took sellers 10mins to come back to the gate and let friend in to yard. Horse was brought out of stable and was very shut down and unreactive, not particularly interested in friend but just stood there. Horse flinched every time sellers touched it. Horse didn't really put a foot wrong ridden and has potential to be a lovely horse.

Doing some Google detectiving at home afterwards, it turns out seller is a notorious dealer well known on here for a very unpleasant YouTube video. If friend had known before hand they wouldn't have gone. There is a bit of a moral dilemma in that it's a nice horse with great potential at a good price but friend feels similarly to me about lining the pockets of anyone who is known to mistreat animals. I am also concerned about why it took so long for them to let friend on to yard after horse was in, whether that could potentially be enough time to drug a horse (not saying they did but could it be done that fast).

What would your thoughts be in this situation? Would you buy from a notorious dealer? What sort of mental problems could have had the foundations already laid by rough treatment of a very young and green horse? Thanks.
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Can you report these people to someone-?? these need shutting down-they need the horses taken off them :mad:
 
Regardless of the moral dilemma - the horse might have been drugged so it wasn't a fair trial and it may be a completely different beast 'sober'. If you tried a drugged horse, you don't even really know if you like it or the extent of the issues it has. They wouldn't drug unnecessarily.

Sorry but I would walk away too. Horses are not expensive at the moment, look for another.
 
My logical mind would tell me to walk away and not keep their business going.

My heart however would scream at me to buy it just to make it's life better.
 
Thank you all for your input. What I'd really like to do is for friend to refuse to purchase but tell them why, rather than just brush it under the carpet. But that's not my place. Friend doesn't want a project although is capable of coping with tricky ones they really wants to have fun. They want a nice young small horse with all rounder and best friend potential, so I think this isn't the one. I feel bad for the horse though as it would have a great home with them.
 
Don't walk away RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN !!!!

If you are really concerned about the horses welfare speak to the RSPCA or another horse charity about the dealer, Name and shame the dealer. Horse ownership done correctly is expensive and time consuming enough without buying a doped horse.
 
mums the groom said:
Don't walk away RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN !!!!

If you are really concerned about the horses welfare speak to the RSPCA or another horse charity about the dealer, Name and shame the dealer. Horse ownership done correctly is expensive and time consuming enough without buying a doped horse.
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She can't name and shame, she could be done for defamation or slander (can never remember which is written and which is spoken). The friend "thinks" the horse was drugged. She has no proof so is on an absolute hiding to nothing. We all know which dealer is being referred to and to be fair, they do seem to sell some nice horses as well as I do know someone who took a punt and bought a superb horse. Would I buy from them? absolutely not. Its hard enough trying to buy without deliberately taking a risk as there are enough warnings on this couple on the internet to ensure everyone should steer clear. If, however, your friend could afford to pay for this horse and for it to go wrong then get it vetted properly and have a go. She might be lucky. Oh and your friend telling this dealer her suspicions really won't get her very far. If you do a little more digging on FB you will see the comments from this dealer about people he and she believe are time wasters..
 
The trouble is I have no evidence of anything amiss. The other horses were in good condition and the rest all looked bright and interested over their stable doors. It was just the horse flinching when touched and a gut feeling that's the problem.
 
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