More downs than ups with Scrappy! I'm worried!

[cblover]

My roller coaster continues with Scrappy and at the minute I'm worried about her future. That may sound dramatic but after Thursday, when the farrier come, I just can't help but be concerned.

As some of you will know she suffered some sort of trauma with having her feet done in the hands of her breeder, plus she was skin and bone and covered in lice and I'm sad to say, she's scarred by it all. I know if I was brave enough to ask them they would just deny it and I've asked Scrappy but no reply yet!! Lol

I've been working on picking her legs up without getting bit or kicked with hubby at her head and she was getting better but we were back to square one when the farrier came to trim on Thursday. She kicked for her life and I felt we were as far back as china. So deflated with it all.

I feel she needs some intense work if she's ever to overcome her fears and feel comfortable to be handled. I'm not sure I can support her enough but I can't even think what would happen to her in anyone else's hands. I'm so angry with the humans who did this.

How do I help her overcome it? Hubby says we are making progress and we need to give her more time. He's probably right but it doesn't stop me worrying. She's such a contrast to lulu, who literally is the sweetest thing around. Thanks for listening to my rant. Lol

 

[pippixox]

I agree with your hubby- give it time. I don't know how long you've had her, but mistreated horses can take a long time to learn to trust again. If anything intensive is a bad idea as could push too fast.

They may need to get to know your farrier- as they only trust you doing their feet at the moment

 

[ycbm]

Please let me know if you don't want to keep her. I've had my eye on her ever since you bought her.

 

[TuscanBunnyGirl]

just a thought...if she was covered in lice...were her legs sore from them? it might be a bit straw clutch-y but maybe someone tried to put stuff on her legs at some point that stung/made them sore? Have you had a good chiro/physio out? She might be 'out' somewhere further up and its just too painful to pick her feet up? Or...she does just need a bit more time..these 'damaged' horses really can take so long to trust again

 

[cblover]

Better hadn't tell hubby you agree with him....can't have him thinking he's right. But I take on board what you're saying. I just want to help her become more confident and happy basically. Plus I'd really like to feel comfortable around her and safe. Might be a bit much to ask just yet. But please don't get me wrong, as soon as she sees my car she gallops to the gate. She really wants to overcome this but it's very hard for her.

Ycbm - that's good to know. If I feel I can't do a good enough job for heir will be looking to sell her to someone who is right for her. So thank you....I really didn't think she's be an attracted offer for anyone at the minute.

 

[cblover]

TBG - I didn't see lice on her legs and she's always been fully feathered. I'll check them as best I can once I can get my hand on them again. Hubby and I will be doing it each day this week. When she came she had two cuts on her nose, from what I assume was a twitch. I'd love to know exactly what happened.

I do have a local physio but I'm not sure she'd get very far just at the minute. I'd hate her to get hurt.

 

[Pilatesclare]

I know they aren't always that well thought of on hho but have you considered asking a Kelly marks associate? I think they can be useful for these sorts of problems. Good luck with her, I am sure she will come round.

 

[ycbm]

Ycbm - that's good to know. If I feel I can't do a good enough job for heir will be looking to sell her to someone who is right for her. So thank you....I really didn't think she's be an attracted offer for anyone at the minute.

I love Clydes, only have a half one, and I've got history with behavioural problems. She's beautifully marked, and you've set her up physically. It's no shame on you if she needs more input than you can provide in livery. It's very different when they are outside the back door. But I wish you luck with her if you choose to persevere. My advice would be to try to work out when she needs reassurance, when she is mistaking reassurance for 'I agree with you there is something to be afraid of', and when she needs leadership. And never ask a question where you aren't sure the answer, in the end, will be yes. Easier said than done !

 

[YorksG]

Not long after we got the young appy she had a lamness episode, which required two vet visits with sedation and chopping her foot about a bit, she then became awful for the farrier to trim and not good for me to deal with her feet. I spent weeks picking her feet up everytime I saw her, including at midnight when I did last hay, this was combined with clicker training and was topped off with the farrier coming out and spending a morning with her. He began with standing next to her while I picked her foot up, we spent ten minutes with her, went and had coffee and back out again, me picking the foot up, then farrier picking foot up, we repeated the whole process for the morning and by the end she was allowing the farrier to hold the leg until he chose to put it down. She now picks her foot up when she sees the farrier It took time and patience, but we got there and I'm sure you will too. See if you can persuade your farrier to give up a morning of his time.

 

[Arzada]

We looked after a fully feathered cob who not only had gone through some trauma with foot handing/farriers but also had long term sore painful deep weeping crevices in his pasterns from mites. Once he came to live with us we had to do something to help with the mites - it was just awful to see him stamping his feet and lying down to chew his pasterns. He found it very hard to give his feet to us even when he realised that our treatment was helping. He tried so hard to work with us. To give you an idea I handed him loose on the concrete yard so he was free to move away if he needed. As it happened he chose to stay with me but at first I spent almost 2 hours just on one pastern. That was the only one I did that day! I know that sounds intense but it really wasn't - we both had plenty of breaks. I always wore a hat when working with his hinds just in case the awful itching caused him to kick back but not at me.

You might find that clicker training will help you and Scrappy (and btw what a beautiful horse)

Luckily we didn't need a farrier because by some miracle he self trimmed on the concrete yard.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I am sorry to tell you that I had a Clyde mare who was difficult to trim, especially her back feet. She needed sedation, IV at first but we did progress to Sedalin eventually. The poor girl was pts aged 11 with an internal tumour and I have always wondered if that was the reason she hated picking her feet up.
She was my 3rd Heavy horse, the 2nd that I had to pts prematurely, I vowed then never to have another.

 

[cblover]

PC I do value the RA's from the intelligent horsemanship but we don't have one round here. It is something I'd consider though. Alison Johnson nr Durham is the closest to me.

Ycbm - I did think this last time with the farrier she was less fearful and dare I say it more awkward. Have to say I just want to tell him to slow down and do so e advance and retreat stuff...but he's always busy and although he's lovely, he's difficult to try something different.

YorksG - hubby had her front feet picked up in the field this morning twice and no teeth threatening either. It's a start.

 

[TuscanBunnyGirl]

Have you tried contacting Guy Robertson? I'm not a masssssive advocate of pareilli (sp?) or any commercialised 'natural horsemanship' etc I'm more on working/listening to your horse and working on a mutual respect level but using yourself to 'lead' confidently. He seems absolutely fantastic though!

 

[TuscanBunnyGirl]

I worked with a cob once who had horrendous feet because no one could get near them. He would do anything to you to get you away from him as soon as you'd bend down to pick them up- rear, bite, run you over, throw himself on the floor, try and jump out of the stable etc So firstly we working on just touching his leg- not a lot..just quick enough to touch confidently before he'd give a huge reaction, then let go..instead of pushing and pushing till he snapped. If he did react as soon as we went to touch the leg- we'd touch somewhere else then move him out of our space. He would try and rear over and on to you if you tried the fronts and kick at the backs. We'd always work in a stable with a headcollar/leadrope on but not tied up so he wouldn't express a stress 'i cant get away' reaction but enough room for us to get out of the way. As soon as he'd move into our space he would get moved out and made to stand and wait- chasing them round just seems to cause a different anxiety. But we soon would go in and stand and get the space respect, then stroke all over and down to the knee, then pick up the leg in a very matter of fact way but put it straight back down because if it's not a balance issue then they will just slowly learn to hold them up for a longer period without issue. A couple of weeks later the farrier came out and trimmed him loose in the field.
I really do feel for you as it's so frustrating and emotionally knackering I'd say you'd be welcome to bring her to my yard and see if I could help you in any way but currently laid up with a broken knee.

 

[Leo Walker]

Alison Johnson is very good, and I'm sure she will come out to you. Another thing to try is a barefoot trimmer, just because in my experience they have all the time in the world and are more open to other methods

Have you thought about sedation which slowly decreases? I know its not usually a solution but might help in this case?

 

[AdorableAlice]

Is she frightened is what I would first assess. My young horse (Ted) was frightened but he also learnt how to work the situation to his advantage. I did all the groundwork with his legs and feet. My farrier who has worked for me for 30 plus years took the time to handle the horse every time he was on the yard. That helped as he was not a stranger to Ted when the trimming without sedation commenced.

Remember if the horse can get you to take away the pressure they are working you and not the other way round. They have to accept pressure and it is you that rewards them by taking it away. They are also flight animals and you mention the filly is biting you, that tells me she is prepared to stand her ground rather than clear off. Ted ran away from me, he never ever fought me. Handling his hind legs was tricky, I used a padded hand and every time he kicked the hand off it went back on until he accepted it on him and I removed it from him.

Don't get disheartened it is early days. I did 3 years of work and made progress with mine but still needed specialist help.

 

[SEL]

My Ardennes came to me with the instruction that feet could only be trimmed under sedation. Despite all the work I did on handling his feet it was getting a farrier in to work with me on training that really helped.

I put a call out on the barefoot FB page for a barefoot trimmer because the big boy was so scared on the farrier & I thought the smell wasn't helping. I ended up with a lady messaging me to say her farrier husband was used to working with drafts & would be happy to do some training. Obviously I paid for him to come out and do the training. I knew I'd found a keeper when in the first session he spent 30 mins with the horse before picking a foot up!

The trim we did 2 weeks ago was all 4 feet and even used the hoof stand. I have to admit to standing there stuffing the horse full of treats but if we associate having feet done with eating his body weight in food, then so be it.

If your current farrier doesn't have the time or inclination to do training then out a shout out for someone who does. I would definitely see if you can find someone who has worked with heavies because they can struggle to balance.

 

[TuscanBunnyGirl]

The trim we did 2 weeks ago was all 4 feet and even used the hoof stand. I have to admit to standing there stuffing the horse full of treats but if we associate having feet done with eating his body weight in food, then so be it.

Haha i love this!! <3 this is the only thing that makes my mare behave herself when leading out..if she gets a treat at the end of it, as soon as she's out of the habit of receiving her treat at the other end, she bolts and prats around..

 

[Sukistokes2]

When my Clyde arrived he would not pick up his feet, he was very bad with his back feet. The dealer had used straps to lift them for the farrier ( the dealer did not cause the issue, the neglect of previous owners did, the dealer only did what he could to make him comfortable). It has taken time to get him right. He can still be a pain but my farrier is really good and takes his time. Kev is currently barefoot and doing well. He will lift each foot for me but still plays my farrier up a bit. It just takes time.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Get someone who is good at calm consistent handling in. In my experience with any animal that has come from a bad life you have to put it aside and not use it as an excuse for their behaviour today. She has no reason to fear you or your farrier because you've only been kind to her. She has to learn to tolerate normal life for her to have a successful safe existence in the future.

What I would do would be to use a soft rope round her legs to lift them (means you aren't in danger and can persevere until they stop jumping about if only for a second, but you then reward the positive not the negative and build from there) but as with all things with horses timing is everything so getting the right help would be my first choice.

We have a lovely little pony here who had a horrible time before we got him. He was sold to me as uncatchable and unhandled. We had him tacked up within 30 mins of coming home and my daughter (7) was riding him solo within 3 weeks. He loves his new life and has never been a bit of bother with us. She's been out competing with him all winter and we only got him in September. I never dwell on his past, instead I want to make sure he is future proof so he will always have as good a chance as possible of being in the right home as a top child's pony. I pushed him outside his comfort zone a bit but they need that to learn, if you aren't making progress then it's a good idea to get someone to come and help you make some changes. Every day is a school day

 

[turnbuckle]

Don't despair!

Perhaps the chemistry with the farrier is wrong? Try another one?

And perhaps try a lip twitch? (Administered by someone who knows what they are doing, of course) Helped transform mine from a pig to shoe into a lamb - and he will fight a normal twitch all the way.

 

[TuscanBunnyGirl]

And perhaps try a lip twitch?

Think this mare has already got scars from being twitched..

 

[Damnation]

Not long after we got the young appy she had a lamness episode, which required two vet visits with sedation and chopping her foot about a bit, she then became awful for the farrier to trim and not good for me to deal with her feet. I spent weeks picking her feet up everytime I saw her, including at midnight when I did last hay, this was combined with clicker training and was topped off with the farrier coming out and spending a morning with her. He began with standing next to her while I picked her foot up, we spent ten minutes with her, went and had coffee and back out again, me picking the foot up, then farrier picking foot up, we repeated the whole process for the morning and by the end she was allowing the farrier to hold the leg until he chose to put it down. She now picks her foot up when she sees the farrier It took time and patience, but we got there and I'm sure you will too. See if you can persuade your farrier to give up a morning of his time.

OP - I don't think you are too far from me so hello!

Also, I was going to suggest what YorksG said, getting the farrier to come and do some training may be the key here.

We have to remember, a horse giving it's foot to us takes alot of trust. In their wee brains, if their foot is compromised then it is a big deal. I also think that as a whole, a heavy horse does struggle with lifting feet, it is alot of weight to balance!

If you can persuade your farrier to give up a morning, or come down once a week not to trim but just to spend an hour with her, picking up a foot, giving a treat, having a brew, building up the trust and just letting her get to know him. (I find coffee on tap with buscuits and cake is always a good bribe for a good farrier!!)

If he isn't prepared to do this then I think you need a new farrier, depending on where you are I may know of someone but I am not sure how far out he covers!

 

[Annagain]

I would maybe consider sedating her and gradually reducing the sedation, not enough to knock her out so she doesn't know what's happening but enough that she doesn't panic. If the sedation helps you get past that initial fight, she might start to realise it's not so bad and you can reduce it. I've seen this work with many horses with clipping. Once they've been sedated a few times they seem to accept it's not going to kill them.

I'd also get your farrier to let you know when he's passing so he can pop in just to make a fuss of her and work his way gradually towards her back legs with nice scratches and lots of treats. Even if this costs you each time it's probably worth it in the long run.

You're doing a great job with her, keep plugging away and you'll get there.

 

[cblover]

Thanks for all your advice, I really did appreciate it and it gives more the encouragement to carry on. And a big hello to Damnation! Sadly when you live we're I do, most of the good professionals such as Alison Johnson are a bit away. I will be asking the farrier to slow things down and see if he will spend a morning with her, plus I'll enquire with friends to see who uses a barefoot trimmer. I also need to see this week if we can get things back to where I can pick them up at least. Oh hell, I do worry about her.

 

[Rhandir]

A few years ago I purchsed a yearling sec c as a companion for my other yearling. In between my leaving a deposit and picking her up she had her feet done. Whatever happened to her nearly scarred her for life, I put in some work with her to the point that she would just about allow me to touch her legs before booking the farrier, her feet were looking pretty grim so it was very much between a rock and hard place decision.

As soon as my farrier entered the stable she quite literally climbed the wall .. several times. Luckily my farrier is a saint, he took it real easy on her to quickly rasp the worst bits.

Over the months and years she improved, it took two years to get her to the point that she was perfectly happy to be tied up on her own to have her feet done .. I have to say I did get a little emotional that day .. for her it was huge step forward.

So don't give up op .. it will take as long as it takes

 

[laura_nash]

My first mare came to me needing sedation for shoeing, she was genuinely terrified. She improved with ground work, better trust etc but the real breakthrough was with a farrier's apprentice. I had taken her shoes off for a bit and also moved her and it wasn't worth the farrier coming out, so he sent his apprentice who lived nearby. He was great and would pop in whenever he was passing to say hello and bang a hoof and after about a year of that she was pretty much fine and could be re-shod no problems.

When I subsequently moved her (about 2 years later) we had a mix-up over times and I arrived to find her standing tied in the yard, totally relaxed, whilst a new farrier shod her - so they can be completely cured!

 

[Slightlyconfused]

The trim we did 2 weeks ago was all 4 feet and even used the hoof stand. I have to admit to standing there stuffing the horse full of treats but if we associate having feet done with eating his body weight in food, then so be it.

If your current farrier doesn't have the time or inclination to do training then out a shout out for someone who does. I would definitely see if you can find someone who has worked with heavies because they can struggle to balance.

My old farrier use to put a two hour time slot to work with my wb mare. She used to have a packet of polo's per foot and after two years we could leave her tied up with a hay net.

Is it possible for the farrier to leave you a rasp so you can practice the raising round in between visits so it's not a pick feet up then bam all of a sudden adding in stranger and rasp?

 

[paddy555]

Get someone who is good at calm consistent handling in. In my experience with any animal that has come from a bad life you have to put it aside and not use it as an excuse for their behaviour today. She has no reason to fear you or your farrier because you've only been kind to her. She has to learn to tolerate normal life for her to have a successful safe existence in the future.

What I would do would be to use a soft rope round her legs to lift them (means you aren't in danger and can persevere until they stop jumping about if only for a second, but you then reward the positive not the negative and build from there) but as with all things with horses timing is everything so getting the right help would be my first choice.

)

sorry but for the ones who have been really abused it may not be possible for them to tolerate normal life. We have had several of these types. (quite deliberately) Some have never made what could be classed as normal. Some simply cannot put what has happened to them behind them and move on. The triggers of abuse are sometimes still there. It can take a very very long time. They have a tiny comfort zone and anything beyond that can be meltdown for quite a while. It has been a case of working round them. The heavier horses seem to be the worst. I think because they are often big, fat and seemingly dozy types that people think they can beat the **** out of them. In reality they are far more sensitive than some of the hotter types, they just don't show it as much.
Ropes around the legs or anywhere else are a no no. Ropes are often one of the things that have caused the problems in the first place.

I would ask the farrier to wait for a couple of years. Many youngsters don't like the farriers holds on either the fronts or backs. Add to that a youngster that has had a hard time and it is probably not going to work.
I had one (he was 6) shire X who had been seriously abused. (I was given the details) It took a year to pick up his fronts. He trimmed on a concrete yard. With this method he ended up with seriously good feet. I used a hoof stand with a cradle to hold his feet up. Abused horses have most likely never come across a hoof stand. No one is threatening them by holding onto the feet, they are just resting them. That works wonders. You can clean them on the hoof stand (backwards) then you can practice rasping or just running a sanding block around the edges so they get used to it.

He has most likely been upset in the past by a male farrier. Whilst your OH (as a man) can clearly get on well with him he will have put the time in. In the meantime try a barefoot trimmer but make sure it is a lady. Many have some training or expertise in handling difficult horses. A lady will be far less provocative.

If you don't want to lose our farrier explain what you are doing. It is not his fault Scrappy has been damaged in the past.
Keep at it. It will take a very long time but these are the most rewarding horses to work with.