More fireworks today *video* think i need some serious HELP!!

I disagree with various comments of how he 'must' be tied up, IME it can make a nervous horse feel trapped and therefore make his reaction worse but I would put a headcollar or halter on him and maybe just drape the rope over his neck ready to grab if needs be. I'd always rather have a rehab horse want to stay with me than make him stay by tying him up.

I know his back has been checked but get someone different out, that little episode was all triggered by the leg being pulled forward up until that point he was maybe a little tense but showing no signs of what was to come so it could either have caused pain or have caused remembered pain.

I'd echo the others about wearing a hat and maybe work outside or in a bigger space, he may even feel better in a bigger space with more room to move.

Finally give yourself a pat on the back for what you've achieved so far - well done. :)
Let him guide you with what speed he wants to go at and what he can cope with, if you listen to him he'll tell you what needs. :)
 
I agree with wheezy, it was the leg lift/stretch that was the trigger, girth tightening didn't seem to phase him at all.
Has he been turned out with mares? Only asking because, it came to my mind it could be some sort of sprain in his chest or between his legs - could he have been mounting mares? I came across this problem some time ago.
Just thinking outside the box/laterally.
I can see you are trying your best for him. Don't look him in the eye whilst you are doing things he may react to - look at his shoulders or neck for any tension or reaction.
I agree - you must wear a hat.
YES - get professional help, check out here http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/content/view/47/116/.
Please don't believe anyone who says he is being naughty - there is a reason for him reacting this way-he would tell you if he could but he is demonstrating in the best way he knows.
 
Just a couple of inputs from me 1) The girth doesn't look long enough, when you did it up the buckles stopped just short of the saddle so maybe that was pinching or tickling. 2) I know horse that have reared up and smacked their heads on beams and instantly dead so try and find an alternative place to tack up. I know he didn't rear but the stable didn't look big enough for those acrobatics.
Hope you solve the problem.
 
I don't think anyone said he must be tied up, just that he shouldn't be loose - so if he won't tie, then he needs someone holding him.
 
Catherine123 said:
I had him checked over by a well regarded mctimmoney practioner.

In his defence his first resort is to run away the bucking only happens when he feels trapped. He has had the saddle on everyday for the last couple of weeks without any issues, until today.
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Maybe thats too much for him? And its his way of saying enough is enough.

For him to suddenly freak out like that it's not just because he didn't like his leg being pulled.

Youve come here for advice but you come across very defensive at everyones advice.

If he were mine I would ask a friend to hold him and start by putting saddle on WITH saddlecloth / numnah and not doing the girth up, if he was okay after a week or so, progress onto doing a girth up.

I would definately also give him a haynet, or a feed, anything to keep him occupied, because at the moment in your video he is solely concentrating on the saddle being applied.

At least if he has a feed, and you stretch his leg, and he still freaks out, you know its probably something physical....
 
We had one used to buck like a silly sod when saddled - fine w/t/c/g/jumping bareback! I agree with all the others and maybe take the stirrups off when lunging/fitting. Saddle on and get on with next bit. Good luck.

I don't get the 'saddle sitting off his back when he arched it to buck' comment - what do you expect it to do! It is anchored towards the front!
 
SpottedCat said:
I don't think anyone said he must be tied up, just that he shouldn't be loose - so if he won't tie, then he needs someone holding him.
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I agree.
Half the horses on our yard would try to kick or bite you if you saddled them up loose like this in their own stables, particularly with a saddle without a numnah, and then I bet there'd be a few very similar reactions once the stirrups started banging about.

Just from the vid, I don't think you have a major problem tbh. I think you just need to take a few steps back, and start again carefully with assistance. Use a nice warm wooly numnah, and remove the stirrups for now.
 
Ditto the cold backed, definitely a sheepskin/wool numnah, also girthing loosely and then just leave for 10 minutes before you try tightening the girth.

He also seemed to react to his leg being pulled forwards which would make me suspect his shoulders are getting pinched. I'd definitely have a second opinion on his saddle fit.

He looks a lovely sort.
 
1) get someone else out ot check his back etc
2) get the saddle fit checked it seems to sit a long way off his back with a big gap at the front so may be pinching. use a longer girth and a leather one if poss and put a nice thick numnah sheepskin under it. ensure he is happy with roller etc first.
3) i would also if he has had it on before then not beother putting it on and off just put it on and get on with it. dont make a big deal of it as he is nto bothered until you do the girth up


my mare is young and is sensitive, she has a thick numnah and i use a leather girth and do it up loosely then put her boots on and get myself ready so it has time to warm up before i do the girth up and get on.
 
Wear a hat please and I would do that in a more open space so you can get out the way from any legs.

I would get him checked for ulcers. If his back is fine (which he did seem fine with) he got upset when the girth went up this screams to me ulcers.

In nothing wrong medically perhaps try with some dead sheep on girth and under saddle and see if that helps with his sensitivity.

He's lovely looking btw wish you luck with him.
 
I do not mean sound defensive. I really am grateful for any suggestions that help us overcome these issues but I am trying to explain as the trouble here is he looks very normal (until the incident) which is misleading as he is in fact a very tense, nervous & a super sensitive little horse.

He does tie up and stands quietly but when he gets into this panic mode he will then snap rope etc.

Unfortunately i'm on my own so no one around to hold him.

In the past he has bucked against the roller so its not just the saddle. He also doesn't like me putting my arms around his neck - again feels trapped. If his field mates gallop about he gets very worried & will then jump out to remove himself from the situation. These are the reasons (and back check) i thought the problem was psychological rather than physical.

But am i right in thinking the general opinion is that it is something physical? & to get the vet to check his back, shoulder and for ulcers? and get his saddle checked and widened to accommodate a sheepskin numnah?
 
i've probably missed this info somewhere but does he do this all the time or is this the first time today?
I have a 10 yr old that was backed about 2 years ago but is being restarted again due to me doing nothing with him in those 2 years! he hates being tied up so i use a lunge line through the ring and just hold it loosely while i work around him, means if he does throw himself backwards ( as he is prone to) i can put some pressure on the line but still give a little and then reel him back in when he realises he's being silly;)
i used to faff around him being all nicey nice with the saddle, putting it on, taking it off, just like you, but then someone said my faffing and over sensitive approach was actually making him think there was something to be concerned about! So i stopped faffing and just approach him with saddle, let him look, put it on and do it up very loosely, then we have a little head rub and then i tighten the girth, my more positive attitude seems to have rubbed off on him!
 
Catherine123 said:
But am i right in thinking the general opinion is that it is something physical? & to get the vet to check his back, shoulder and for ulcers? and get his saddle checked and widened to accommodate a sheepskin numnah?
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I would be looking down that route first - not least because if it is psychological then it will be very very hard to fix, especially on your own, as I would want the reassurance of someone at his head. Also, if it isn't psychological and you treat it as though it is, you'll never get anywhere, though you may have good and bad days.

The only reliable test for ulcers is scoping - blood tests do not always show them up.

TBH, what you want is a really good equine vet who can do a comprehensive work-up having seen what he does. Back - you want someone who'll look at soft tissue and the possibility of kissing spines, the shoulder only sprang to mind because of his reaction when you pulled the leg forward - could be something or nothing, ulcers could be, but my gut feeling (which is worthless really!) is that this is less likely than the other options.

If he were mine, the order I'd do things in would be saddle - check fit, soundness of saddle and have it fitted to accommodate a sheepskin numnah or a gel pad of some description.

Then I'd go down the vet route and be looking for a comprehensive work-up.

Then if nothing showed up, I would then be thinking psychological and I'd probably get some help in - or at least contact people who may have dealt with this before - it's too dangerous to deal with alone, and I don't think you're doing him any favours by trying to (though I can clearly see what your approach is and how it could work and don't doubt you're doing your best by him). I just feel he needs someone experienced by his head who can gauge his reaction and determine whether he needs more space, to be lead round, to be told to put up and shut up etc. You'd be amazed how many nervous horses actually just want someone to be in control who is very black and white and sticks to the same rules.
 
I haven't read all the replies so forgive me if any of this has been said already. I have had some experience of similar issues. My first Horse came to me with terrible back problems. These were missed by two chiro's and a vet hospital (referred there by my vet). Eventually sorted by Bowen.

My own Horse now of nearly 5 years I 'treated' to a new saddle last year. It was made to measure, apprently. He was fine for a couple of weeks, then, one day he let me know he was NOT happy. Interestingly, the real reaction only happened when I went to do the girth up.I have since changed the saddle and although it took a little while he's back to normal.

My thoughts from watching your video. Personally I'd say he's reacting to the saddle. You can see him watching you with it and he's not happy. Sure it's only when the girth is done up and you pull on his leg that he really lets you know but the signs are there much sooner. If you think a saddle on its own doesn't actually put that much pressure on. When you girth up the pressure increases and then pulling on his leg will cause more movement.

I'm guessing it's a saddle company saddle. I also have experience of them, and I love them. Is what I use now and what I used on the mare I used to have after her back was sorted(not the new one I bought that caused the problems). But, and it's a big but, there are a lot of ***** SC fitters around. It's very hard to tell but it does look too narrow from your video. I'm not saying yours is a bad fitter, however, at the very least I'd want another opinion.

No idea where you are but I cannot rate this chap enough http://www.equinebowensouthafrica.com/. He works here mainly but also in South Africa. He does SC fitting and Bowen. He travels all over the UK.

It's really hard to get to the bottom of things like this but one thing I have found is how much Horses will put up with pain before reacting. My first Horse had clearly put up with a badly fitting saddle for a long time with her old owner. It also seemed to make her more nervous. Finally, despite my experiences I would still say a vet needs to be involved.
 
Ibblebibble said:
i've probably missed this info somewhere but does he do this all the time or is this the first time today?
I have a 10 yr old that was backed about 2 years ago but is being restarted again due to me doing nothing with him in those 2 years! he hates being tied up so i use a lunge line through the ring and just hold it loosely while i work around him, means if he does throw himself backwards ( as he is prone to) i can put some pressure on the line but still give a little and then reel him back in when he realises he's being silly;)
i used to faff around him being all nicey nice with the saddle, putting it on, taking it off, just like you, but then someone said my faffing and over sensitive approach was actually making him think there was something to be concerned about! So i stopped faffing and just approach him with saddle, let him look, put it on and do it up very loosely, then we have a little head rub and then i tighten the girth, my more positive attitude seems to have rubbed off on him!
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Hi Ibblebibble, He doesn't do this all the time (4 times against saddle / roller & twice with me on top) but does resort to running away & or bucking if he get scared, which doesn't take alot! (although unphased by lorrys, tractors, gun shots and the things you would expect a horse to be scared of :rolleyes:) I probably am over sensitive, he has me well trained.
Nice to hear that yours has come round, gives me hope
 
OMG that is so much like my old boy when he was a 3yo. Cold backed as hell - he eventually grew out of it but I had to be very careful with things that went round his middle including rugs.

If I was you, I would get a knackered old saddle (not to ride on) and stick it on his back and leave it on him for extended periods of time.

ALways lunge before you ride.

Always wear a hat - though I found he wasn't having a go at me just trying to get that thing off his back but if I got in the way....

And put a headcollar on him when you are doing that sort of thing from now on!
 
SpottedCat said:
Ok, I have a few thoughts, and the first is the least polite, so I'll get it out of the way.

1. You know he reacts to the saddle, so why is he not tied up? TBH, that's an accident waiting to happen - I'd have him tied up or being held and I certainly wouldn't be in there with no hat on and with him loose. You were lucky not to be hurt and you need to be more careful. You also need to secure the stirrups so they don't escalate any panic he is feeling - after you've run them up, then take the loose end and wrap it back through the stirrup.

Phew, ok, onto more practical things.

2. He looks a bit cold-backed rather than nervous, so I certainly wouldn't use a saddle with nothing underneath. What you're getting is actually a pretty typical reaction from a horse not used to feeling the saddle next to him. Have you tried with a wool lined numnah? That would be my first port of call, followed by things like gel pads etc to see if any of those help.

3. You say you've had his back done, has a vet looked at him or just a 'back person'? If this has been going on for a while, a vet who knows a lot about backs would be someone I'd want to visit. I'd also be thinking about whether or not to have him scoped for ulcers, as it is the tightening which seems to trigger it.

4. How about having the saddle thoroughly checked - both for fit and to check it's sound and there are no loose tacks etc - has this been done, and have you had a second opinion?

He honestly doesn't look nervous, he looks completely relaxed and then as though something triggers the bucking once the girth is tightened.
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^ this, agree 100%
 
Accident waiting to happen.

Right, here is my take on this matter.

First that stable is not a safe place for a horse that is going to misbehave with a saddle on as there is little room
Next thing, if you are expecting problems you should be wearing a hat and have a bridle or at east a halter on the horse. That way you have some control.

Difficult to say from the angle of the camera but the saddle looks way to high at the withers and when he was having a go it looks as if it rises to high away from his back, I suspect it would do the same when trotting.

Now, he is not to worried about the saddle going on and off. but he looks like a horse that is what I call 'windy' and frightens himself.
I would have him in an arena with a bridle, longe caveson boots, longe line and then saddle him. I would not bother with a leg stretch and would probably use aN Aerborn Humane Girth.

When he started to have a go I would be very quick to correct him with a hard jerk on the line so that he knew it was wrong. I would not start to longe him until he was walking nicely and then I would work him hard at the trot and canter. At some point I would tighten the girth going up a single hole at a time and would not bother with a leg stretch.
 
Thanks suzysparkle. It is a saddle company saddle! I am in the SE. Can i ask is your bowen / sc fitter ok to deal with these kind of horses? I do worry about who comes out to him, as I warned the last one & suggested giving him some sedalin but was told not to. He took one look at her & her stall & ran off. She ended up doing him in the middle of the field with the other gelding resting his chin on his neck, which gave him moral support.
 
A lot of horses are fine when you put the saddle on, what normally frightens them is something tied around their middle. I guess they feel very trapped because of it.

1st thing i would do, is have someone check his muscles under where the girth goes, and his pectoral muscles. If these are tight or sore, it might be hurting him and thus resulting in his reaction.

2nd, take him outside in a safe environment, ie an enclosed arena, and hold onto him until the saddle is secured. Then let him loose. If he is going to react that way, you are better off not being close to him. Dont chase him, just let him move around by himself, and if he broncs, just leave him to it. Most horses settle down.
And dont over tighten the girth. Tight enough not to move, but not to tight that it could hurt him.

What i also like to do is some desensitisation. If you have a plastic bag, tie it to a stick, and see if he will let you touch him with it. Start at his nose so he gets use to it, then gradually move it over his body and down his sides. Also do this outside on a lead rope. You want to get him to the stage that you can move it quite quickly all over him and he doesnt get scared of it. After all, if he cant tolerate haveing a bag flapped around, how do you expect him to be settled enough to ride.

If you dont have the facilities, please take him to someone who does. You dont want to put him in a position he or yourself could get hurt, and also maybe contact someone who has experience with this sort of horse, to come and help you.

But first, i would make sure hes not sore because he looks sore to me. Dont expect him to behave if something is bothering them. Some horses are more layed back even if something hurts, but some horses just react the way yours does if they are in pain. Best of luck.
 
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I agree with the comments made by Spotted Cat and others. The only thing I have to add is my mare is cold backed and would react in the same manner if she wasn't walked when being girthed up.
 
Yes he'd be absolutely fine I'm sure. He used to event and has an amazingly calming effect on the Horses. He has also treated one of my huskies with bowen and did wonders. I suggested him for that reason. His email address is on his website.
I do feel your pain as I went through hell with that Mare I had. I also felt awful for inflicting that other saddle on my Horse. He made the same subtle faces yours is doing. It's almost like he's trying to tell you but doesn't want to hurt you.
I wouldn't be surprised if these nerves of his are related to all of this. Like I say that saddle I got was made to measure and looking at it - it looked ok. Just goes to show that the only saddle fitter you should trust is the Horse itself. I've never felt that I need to tie up to saddle a Horse. If they are happy to wear tack and be ridden they don't need to be. Even when I worked in a SJ yard I never tied anything up when in a stable.
I'd be really interested to hear how you get on. Feel free to PM.
 
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