More on the misold schoolmistress

[Pippity]

Honestly, Michen bought a schoolmistress, and it turns out the mare is anything but. Shes negotiated returning the mare and getting 75% of the money back. No its not great, but in a couple of weeks the mare will be gone and Michen will have most of the money back. I think its time to let it go! Bonkers2 your issues aren't really relevant here, other than the fact that you had a vaguely similar issue and didnt pursue it as you wouldn't get the money back. I think Michen needs a round of applause for dealing with it the way she has, then a huge hug as its terrible to have to deal with this sort of crap! Onwards and upwards Michen! And a huge hug from me!

100% this. I can't imagine going through what you have, Michen.

 

[*Sahara]

Obviously humour isn't conveyed well on internet sites - I didn't realise it was a joke, apologies.

However, it's very clear from the OP that this £4K schoolmistress has serious issues. People often dismiss the severity of rearing, but until you have sat on a true rearer, you won't really understand.

Something that can turn itself inside out and pull itself over might never be a safe ridden horse. Something that rears without pain is very dangerous. She's only doing it out hacking alone at the moment, but a habitual rearer will have that as her defence mechanism, often throughout her life. The danger of a habitual rearer, who rears for behavioural reasons is that you will never know when they are going to go up - it could be in the school, at a competition surrounded by people, or on the road, with an 8ft vertical drop between the saddle and the tarmac.

It isn't worth the risk, or the liability of passing it on to someone else, because sometimes rearers are just rearers and you can't change that - I sure as hell tried with mine, and I'm sure PS would be able to tell you some tales that make your hair stand on end with the trouble she had with Pea.

I have also never met a horse that won't hack alone - it is most certainly not common here!

I agree with this ^
Also sending you a hug <3

 

[3DE]

If you think about rearing - it goes against anything nature tells a horse. Exposure of the stomach to a 'predator' is a bad thing! In my experience (personal and seeing others) is rearing is almost always caused by pain. The rearer I had (and she only threatened) has a old fracture to the pelvis, kissing spines a fracture to the eye socket and poll damage. Sadly without xrays we never know if there is something underlying.

As for the small claims court - you can take them to court yourself. Just fill in the forms online and I think it costs about £30. You may not win but a court summons dropping on their doorstep could make them pay up.

Linky for you

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-rights/legal-system/taking-legal-action/small-claims/

and

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview

 

[Michen]

Small claims start to finish is approx 700 pounds now which I may or may not have got back.

If you think about rearing - it goes against anything nature tells a horse. Exposure of the stomach to a 'predator' is a bad thing! In my experience (personal and seeing others) is rearing is almost always caused by pain. The rearer I had (and she only threatened) has a old fracture to the pelvis, kissing spines a fracture to the eye socket and poll damage. Sadly without xrays we never know if there is something underlying.

As for the small claims court - you can take them to court yourself. Just fill in the forms online and I think it costs about £30. You may not win but a court summons dropping on their doorstep could make them pay up.

Linky for you

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-rights/legal-system/taking-legal-action/small-claims/

and

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview

 

[3DE]

Small claims start to finish is approx 700 pounds now which I may or may not have got back.

Then withdraw at that point. Use the court papers appearing on their door as a bluff. The court insists on mediation too so they will be forced into that before it gets to the actual court stage. They will be told in no uncertain terms at mediation that they are out order. Also report them to the inland revenue as you can bet they won't be declaring their extra income...

 

[RunToEarth]

If you think about rearing - it goes against anything nature tells a horse. Exposure of the stomach to a 'predator' is a bad thing! In my experience (personal and seeing others) is rearing is almost always caused by pain. The rearer I had (and she only threatened) has a old fracture to the pelvis, kissing spines a fracture to the eye socket and poll damage. Sadly without xrays we never know if there is something underlying.

Pain is only one motivator behind rearing. A lot of horses will react to a block at the poll junction by evading contact at a young age, and unless they are sympathetically ridden through it, it becomes a learned trait. The initial source of the block is going to be discomfort either by the rider pushing the horse forward into contact or the horse's own excitement, which will result in the rear. However the behaviour will develop as a reaction to contact or to unfavourable situations rather than specifically pain. I think it is fairly naïve to state that only horses in pain will rear.

 

[Speedyfluff]

Rearing can be pain or behaviour related. I always suspect pain first. A friend of mine has a WB mare that she used to keep at mine. She flipped over with her on several occasions, in all kinds of circumstances, both hacking and in the school. Once she fell backwards into a ditch and my friend was lucky to be alive. But she kept on riding her. I was much younger then and rather stupidly brave. So I schooled her for my friend thinking it was behavioural and that she just needed a firm rider. She never once reared with me. I guess I was lucky because a male friend of her owner rode her one evening and she flipped over with him. At that point I decided not to ride her again. We had vets come and do lameness work ups etc. but nothing was found until finally she went to Rossdales. There she was diagnosed with PSD in both hinds. She had keyhole surgery and fully recovered. That was over ten years ago and the mare hasn't reared since.

But back to what is relevant here. I think the OP has done really well to secure a deal, even though it is regretful that she has lost £1k over the whole unfortunate experience. I fully understand her not wanting to go through the courts right now. I would not want to either. I would want the whole thing over with. A bird in the hand and all that. Good luck, OP. Hopefully soon you can put this all behind you.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

My late TB mare was a rearer, it didn't matter to me as her job was being a nanny for youngstock. She had always been a rearer and as a foal and used to walk next to her dam on her hind legs. Once backed she reared under saddle too, but she was always well balanced and under control so it didn't stop her from being a racehorse. Even in her twenties she would go right up, turn and walk about on her hindlegs while waving her forelegs about, whenever anything exciting happened.

She wasn't in pain and she certainly wasn't bothered about predators attacking her stomach.

Sadly I missed the full height, but this was her doing her thing after a good canter round the paddock.

 

[Michen]

Well I've uploaded a photo of her rearing when asked to leave the yard. Just a screenshot from a video it's in my album entitled mare. Can't get it on here due to ipad being a pain and not copying the link but if anyone else can that's fab.

And that is not her at full height...

 

[Carefreegirl]

 

[Michen]

Thanks!

There she is in all her glory. The reason the right long line is tight is from her turning around and backing up, at speed. Having lost my concentration for one second a few days before with her and getting kicked in the stomach I was getting the hell out the way. This video was taken for evidence, not with the intention of winning the battle.

 

[Caol Ila]

That is a rather spectacular rear.

 

[Michen]

And not her biggest. She reared bigger than this under saddle when her old owner rode and she's done bigger on the long lines when she stumbled back and fell over.

That is a rather spectacular rear.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Blimey Michen. Her rear is definitely a different shape than what mine did, with a higher neck and head position, plus even the fuzzy photo makes your mare look very tense. What went through the seller's mind when they decided to advertise her as a schoolmistress? Was it just greed?

I'm keeping fingers firmly crossed that the collection goes smoothly.

 

[Caol Ila]

She missed her calling as a Hollywood stunt horse.

 

[Michen]

She does this snake thing with her head when she goes up as well which makes it even worst.

Honestly? I think she thought they had fixed the problem. Stable groom said she was getting there and probably a few more months and really would have been happy and content out hacking alone.

But then I bought her, new place, new rider (whose not a pro) and whilst she has not one second won with me (I have always got her to go where I've asked her to go whatever the situation) it's all started up again. Exact behaviour her old old owner warned me about. I reckon the seller thought they had eliminated it and took her chance. Doesn't make it right and she should never have been sold as a schoolmistress

Blimey Michen. Her rear is definitely a different shape than what mine did, with a higher neck and head position, plus even the fuzzy photo makes your mare look very tense. What went through the seller's mind when they decided to advertise her as a schoolmistress? Was it just greed?

I'm keeping fingers firmly crossed that the collection goes smoothly.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

The vendor thought she could make money with this thing, take a chance it does not rear on the day and get the money then tell the purchser the horse was fine when trialled and she has "ruined it". Vendor then weeps buckets and pays out massive money to get it sorted.
Good video clip, that is enough, She is dangerours: it is very rare for a horse to do that in those circumstance, very rare.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The pro should surely know that a change can bring undesirable behaviour back. I know that although my chestnut mare doesn't nap with me any more, put a new rider on and she'll give it a go. I'm glad to say that her napping is utterly pathetic compared to what you've experienced and the seller was completely honest with me. In fact they rode her back and forth past the gate to the yard to show what she did.

 

[Michen]

Yep. Like bonkers said, probably taking a chance. Hey ho- I'll find the right horse one day and it's all a learning curve. If nothing else I have hugely improved my long lining skills!!!!!!!

The pro should surely know that a change can bring undesirable behaviour back. I know that although my chestnut mare doesn't nap with me any more, put a new rider on and she'll give it a go. I'm glad to say that her napping is utterly pathetic compared to what you've experienced and the seller was completely honest with me. In fact they rode her back and forth past the gate to the yard to show what she did.

 

[Yuki1290]

I am so sorry Michen to hear that your bad luck with horses continues... Hope this get sorted soon! Out of interest, have you ever seen her rearing in the field? In my experience, there are two types of rearers, natural rearers for which rearing is second nature and they tend to be very balanced(!) they get up from stepping under and standing on their legs properly rather than throwing their weight back... Then, there are the un-natural rearers, I'm afraid that your mare seems to me to belong to the second category... which is the (most) dangerous one... Also, that "snaking" thing is a clear sign of aggression... I would try not to pressurize a horse in that frame of mind!

 

[Michen]

No never seen her rear in the field even when mucking about

I am so sorry Michen to hear that your bad luck with horses continues... Hope this get sorted soon! Out of interest, have you ever seen her rearing in the field? In my experience, there are two types of rearers, natural rearers for which rearing is second nature and they tend to be very balanced(!) they get up from stepping under and standing on their legs properly rather than throwing their weight back... Then, there are the un-natural rearers, I'm afraid that your mare seems to me to belong to the second category... which is the (most) dangerous one... Also, that "snaking" thing is a clear sign of aggression... I would try not to pressurize a horse in that frame of mind!

 

[Yuki1290]

I'm guessing that this has been suggested already but, maybe there's an undiagnosed pain/health issue? I wouldn't really trust a vetting from a vet that I don't know personally!

 

[Michen]

Vet is a well respected vet that my personal vet knows. There may well be something underlying but if there is she's had it for four years. Plus the behaviour is very specific, she works fantastically in the school and hacks out fine with others.

I'm guessing that this has been suggested already but, maybe there's an undiagnosed pain/health issue? I wouldn't really trust a vetting from a vet that I don't know personally!

 

[criso]

Honestly? I think she thought they had fixed the problem. Stable groom said she was getting there and probably a few more months and really would have been happy and content out hacking alone.

That's what I'm inclined to think. This thread (and the other) is full of suggestions and recommendations of ways and people to fix her. People always think they can.

Mine are practiced rearers in the field either together play fighting or alone. Very high, very balanced, it's part of their play. They both lacked confidence hacking alone and I had some long battles at first, but neither at any point thought to stand on their back legs when I was riding. I bought Frankie from a professional and he warned me he was sticky to hack on his own though not dangerous and went to great lengths to make sure I was in a situation where I would have hacking companions if i needed them.

 

[stormox]

That is a serious rear- very dangerous if you were on her as she doesnt look balanced, a balanced rearer crouches more with the hind legs to take the weight. Its so different from the horses play-rearing in the field. How could anyone EVER describe her as a schoolmistress? I would be tempted to threaten seller that you were going to put that on the internet, she really should give you all your money back.

 

[Cortez]

I train certain horses to rear; they are selected very carefully to be as safe as possible while doing so. I would NEVER take on a horse that rears like that; very, very dangerous!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

What do you look for Cortez?

 

[Michen]

Yes I rode a horse in Belize that was trained to and it was the first rear I ever sat. Felt completely different, was quite incredible really.

I train certain horses to rear; they are selected very carefully to be as safe as possible while doing so. I would NEVER take on a horse that rears like that; very, very dangerous!

 

[Cortez]

What do you look for Cortez?

Strong croup, plenty of hock articulation, uphill and a tendency to be a bit "airy" in front. The ability to do this:

 

[Meowy Catkin]

That photo shows a very controlled rear. So different from a flailing, out of control rear.