More social licence questions - Horseball

[coblets]

Hang on. One day it’s to be admired that it will be the little people who will bring the cruel farce that is top end dressage down.

The next day the same little people are being told to butt out of criticising horseball because they are not deemed to be knowledgeable enough .

Which is it, people?

It’s about having informed opinions.

There’s a lot of information about dressage that people quote, mostly quoting experts. That’s good and helpful to the sport. But you can’t be blindly making claims that horseball horses are in pain without a single crumb of evidence.

 

[webble]

It’s about having informed opinions.

There’s a lot of information about dressage that people quote, mostly quoting experts. That’s good and helpful to the sport. But you can’t be blindly making claims that horseball horses are in pain without a single crumb of evidence.

That's not exactly what was said though is it. I've spent many an hour focusing on balance on sitting evenly equally pressure on the correct place etc. Those pictures show the opposite of that and I don't think questioning that is a bad thing

 

[ycbm]

It’s about having informed opinions.

There’s a lot of information about dressage that people quote, mostly quoting experts. That’s good and helpful to the sport. But you can’t be blindly making claims that horseball horses are in pain without a single crumb of evidence.

I agree we can't make claims they are in pain. But we can certainly question why we spend so much time and energy ensuring symmetry in what we do with horses, and question how a modern saddle with a tree with points can't be digging into the far side shoulder when a rider hangs their entire weight off one side.

I do agree that the only place this is heading is to stop most or even all horse sport altogether and I'm confused and conflicted in my own feelings about that.

I do think that if we didn't have history of millennia of using horses for our own purposes, and somebody suddenly found the species on a previously undiscovered island tomorrow, that the thought of sitting on that suspension bridge back with those fragile legs and controlling speed and direction with a piece of metal in the mouth would be dismissed as soon as it occurred to anyone.
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[webble]

Duplicate post

 

[Rowreach]

Hang on. One day it’s to be admired that it will be the little people who will bring the cruel farce that is top end dressage down.

The next day the same little people are being told to butt out of criticising horseball because they are not deemed to be knowledgeable enough .

Which is it, people?

It's an interesting question. The trouble is that racing, dressage, eventing to a certain extent, and showjumping to a certain extent, are very public sports with a wider audience of people than have an actual knowledge base of horses. I'm pretty sure that if vaulting, polo and horseball were more "visible", there would be a similar outcry against them from more of the "little people".

I still don't think it's necessary to have an in depth knowledge of anything, be it horses, children, rabbits, abused partners, to know when something isn't right.

But I also think there's a difference in criticism from people who do have horse knowledge albeit not in that particular discipline or that level, as opposed to someone who knows f3ck all about them - but that's the problem with sticking stuff on the telly, and an image that is public.

For example, I have a huge issue with TT racing - it's noisy, disruptive, bad for the environment, and it kills people on a far too regular basis. But I have never been involved in it in any way, so I don't openly criticise it (well except for just then, obviously).

 

[maya2008]

We all work so hard to sit in balance 99% of the time because continual, consistent wonkiness from the rider for hours a week will end up with a crooked horse.

That doesn’t mean I can’t pick up stuff from the floor, hunker down to get under a branch, use my stirrup to mount, lean over to open a gate or down to sort out one of the kids’ stirrups/bridle/reins though. If you leant off your horse to one side all the time, every time you rode, you’d have a huge problem. If you lean off to the left for a second to grab something, then are balanced, then later off to the right etc, that’s not the same thing.

 

[Boulty]

My thoughts are that there’s a difference in doing manoeuvres where you’re hanging off the horse in an odd position in different gaits. In canter the momentum will sort of help you get into and out of position with less effort and you should only be there for a split second whereas doing the same thing at walk takes a lot more effort and you’re there applying that strain for longer.

I think any competition horse should be having regular physio assessment anyway which should flag if doing weird stuff is causing problems

I’ve still got an issue with vaulting more due to horse being on a constant circle at a constant speed on the same surface which I think is just asking for issues even without the vaulting element but I’m not opposed to things like horse ball and mounted games as long as the horse is doing appropriate strengthening work to prepare them for the demands of what’s being asked of them. (I mean I’ve just started doing a sport where I pretend to stab a bull with a long stick which does involve moments of my weight not being totally central, and ever time I open a gate whilst mounted there will be moments of leaning so I can’t really judge can I?)

 

[catkin]

We all work so hard to sit in balance 99% of the time because continual, consistent wonkiness from the rider for hours a week will end up with a crooked horse.

That doesn’t mean I can’t pick up stuff from the floor, hunker down to get under a branch, use my stirrup to mount, lean over to open a gate or down to sort out one of the kids’ stirrups/bridle/reins though. If you leant off your horse to one side all the time, every time you rode, you’d have a huge problem. If you lean off to the left for a second to grab something, then are balanced, then later off to the right etc, that’s not the same thing.

Agree whole-heartedly.

They are all very useful things to know and to practice. Unless you and your horse are on absolute flat ground at all times then essential that you both know how to deal with such situations

My pony appears to enjoy having a 'purpose' to the exercises so why not use that enthusiasm, - can still ask for a good bend around a pole or a correct turn on the forehand whilst opening a gate

 

[criso]

Hang on. One day it’s to be admired that it will be the little people who will bring the cruel farce that is top end dressage down.

The next day the same little people are being told to butt out of criticising horseball because they are not deemed to be knowledgeable enough .

Which is it, people?

I'd say the difference is that most people here will have seen dressage performed at various levels on a regular basis and taken part in it themselves so have a bit more data to form an opinion.

I suspect many people here will have never had a go at horseball, seen a match or seen the horses being trained and are going by a single picture.

They may be right but it's not a lot to go on.

 

[ycbm]

I'd say the difference is that most people here will have seen dressage performed at various levels on a regular basis and taken part in it themselves so have a bit more data to form an opinion.

I suspect many people here will have never had a go at horseball, seen a match or seen the horses being trained and are going by a single picture.

They may be right but it's not a lot to go on.

It's definitely not a single picture I was commenting on. I went looking and struggled to find any picture of a rider hanging off the side of the horse where the horse looked in any way happy with the situation.

Perhaps people who actually do the sport can post a few.

This is the set on the Facebook UK team recruitment post I was referring to.

 

[criso]

It's definitely not a single picture I was commenting on. I went looking and struggled to find any picture of a rider hanging off the side of the horse where the horse looked in any way happy with the situation.

Perhaps people who actually do the sport can post a few.

This is the set on the Facebook UK team recruitment post I was referring to.

View attachment 135529

That's exactly what I meant. Compared to the years of experience you have watching dressage and training your own horses, it's nothing.

 

[Palindrome]

Horses are working animals, as long as they are well muscled/prepared for the work and that the rider isn't too heavy, I can't see a problem.
Sport isn't easy, it's hard work.

The problem with dressage is people wiping the horses, drawing blood in the mouth or sides or holding their head in so tight that the horse cannot breath properly. This is abuse.

ETA: I have a bit of an internal eye roll when I see people saying how much their horse enjoy to work. Horses work to please us, not because they enjoy the work. In exchange, we feed, care and protect them.

 

[ycbm]

That's exactly what I meant. Compared to the years of experience you have watching dressage and training your own horses, it's nothing.

I don't understand this comment. I know what happens when we fall off or almost fall off. I know how saddles fit and what they do when you put all your weight to one side. I know what the face of a horse who is happy with their work looks like. I think I have enough knowledge to feel uncomfortable about horseball, in the absence of a single photo with the horse looking happy while the riders weight is entirely off one side. .

Hoping someone can post some but I haven't found any.
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[humblepie]

I wish I was athletic enough to do it. It’s not a sport I’ve really thought much about although have done RoR parades with some ex racehorses now on the horse all teams.

 

[Sandstone1]

Horses are working animals, as long as they are well muscled/prepared for the work and that the rider isn't too heavy, I can't see a problem.
Sport isn't easy, it's hard work.

The problem with dressage is people wiping the horses, drawing blood in the mouth or sides or holding their head in so tight that the horse cannot breath properly. This is abuse.

We have made them working animals though, In their natural environment they would simply eat, sleep and breed. They would cover many miles looking for grazing. We make them work for us. They have little choice in he matter.

 

[ycbm]

Horses work to please us, not because they enjoy the work. In exchange, we feed, care and protect them.

This sounds like the kind of thing that would have been written about slaves in the 1600's.

I don't think it's too much to ask, if we are going to use them simply for our pleasure, that they should enjoy what they do most of the time.
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[Palindrome]

This sounds like the kind of thing that would have been written about slaves in the 1600's.

I don't think it's too much to ask, if we are going to use them simply for our pleasure, that they should enjoy what they do most of the time.
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Horses aren't people.

You think they enjoy it, I don't think they do, I think they tolerate it, they get used to it. No horse that's unbacked and out in a field with other horses and food will come over to have a rider put on its back.

Cows don't want to be eaten and my dog would rather be out chasing the neighbor's chicken, but they don't get to decide what happens.

 

[Cortez]

This sounds like the kind of thing that would have been written about slaves in the 1600's.

I don't think it's too much to ask, if we are going to use them simply for our pleasure, that they should enjoy what they do most of the time.
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Honestly, I don't think horses "enjoy" much of what we make them do. I know there will now be battalions of kind, caring horse owners lining up to tell me that their horse is only delighted to jump/hack/dressage/event or whatever, but I don't see horses doing anything like that when given the choice. And they are indeed slaves, in the definition of the name.

 

[GypsGal1718]

I think it is important to just listen to your horse’s behaviour and respond accordingly, they never lie so if they show an unhappy behaviour then recognise it, if they chose without force what they will do then they can truly enjoy it

 

[maya2008]

I went and watched a bit of YouTube - in Horseball, Polocrosse and Polo, the horses’ ears are generally back even in walk with no hands on the reins - expecting the action behind the head, of the stick or the ball or whatever. My mare does similar when leading a youngster - they are behind her head, so is part of her attention - it’s what makes her such a good lead pony, because she sees the issue before I do and responds accordingly.

Horseball has a smaller ‘field’ which doesn’t seem to impress the horses so much, but the videos I watched had very little actual picking up of the ball from the floor - maybe once or twice a match total, and actually not a lot of contact on the reins other than the stop at the end where the goal is. Most riders had them knotted. The others had a bigger pitch to move within so the horses could spread out more, but tighter faster turns and sometimes more bit contact.



In terms of what do horses truly enjoy? Movement, exploration, jumping if built for it and brave enough, and a few enjoy schooling, for a reason I don’t actually know. Why? Survival instincts. Explore or you’ll eat all the grass and die here, or you won’t have a place to go if predators move in or bad weather occurs. Keep moving around your range to minimise parasites and predictability for predators. Keep up the jump ability for escape if needed (weather/predators) and keep fit (so play, enjoy fast movement) for the same.

I buy ferals. They LOVE hacking. So does my homebred (in hand and ponied so far). We mostly hack, and they’ll all start lining up at the gate to wait their turn when we arrive at the correct time of day, there are strops at being left behind and an eagerness to be included in what they see as fun. Transport for us mostly means jumping, so amongst those old enough, there are pricked ears and eye contact when the trailer arrives - me? Please?

None of the current lot are that keen on schooling. We do what is needed to jump and stay muscled enough to carry a rider well, but it doesn’t fill them with happiness the way it did my TB.

My ex ferals could go uncatchable again if they wanted - they haven’t. We only catch for riding and vet/farrier/dentist (fed in the field, loose) so that’s fairly telling in itself. Visitor pony was apparently also difficult to catch before coming here on holiday - she too now begs at the gate for her turn.

Why do dogs like going on walks? Humans doing sport? Why does any animal like to move and explore? We are programmed to produce endorphins when doing activities that enhance our survival chances - natural selection and all of that!

 

[Needtoretire]

Honestly, I don't think horses "enjoy" much of what we make them do. I know there will now be battalions of kind, caring horse owners lining up to tell me that their horse is only delighted to jump/hack/dressage/event or whatever, but I don't see horses doing anything like that when given the choice. And they are indeed slaves, in the definition of the name.

I've got a very intelligent mare who will put herself on the truck if the ramp is down (or anyone else's truck, which is embarrassing) so I assume she likes going out, but that same mare is stroppy and aggressive in her stable. Maybe she just wants to leave home and find another owner !

 

[criso]

I don't understand this comment. I know what happens when we fall off or almost fall off. I know how saddles fit and what they do when you put all your weight to one side. I know what the face of a horse who is happy with their work looks like. I think I have enough knowledge to feel uncomfortable about horseball, in the absence of a single photo with the horse looking happy while the riders weight is entirely off one side. .

Hoping someone can post some but I haven't found any.
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Because I wasn't replying to whether horseball was ethical or not

My post that you quoted and replied with pictures was to TPs comment about how people feel justified to criticise dressage but when it's horseball some say people don't have the knowledge to do so

My comment to that was people on this forum have so much more experience of doing and watching dressage and virtually no real life experience of horseball so have less to go on.

So posting a few pictures compared to the extensive real life experience of dressage you have is what I was getting at.

I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing about horseball itself just on why criticising it might be regarded differently.

 

[SpeedyPony]

I think we have bred a certain desire to work into them- I'd also disagree with the statement that all horses would be happy left in a field to eat and mooch around as they please all their lives.
It's a sample size of one, but for several years of his life my old boy was out on 12 acres, unbroken, with a herd of horses for company and used to get bored enough to jump out of the field (usually alone) and wander about the moors/village occasionally. Perhaps, if he'd been given several hundred acres to roam over he would have been happier, but few horses will have access to that kind of area these days, so getting them out and about is a good way of exercising the instinct to roam and the work ethic we have bred into them.
He wasn't bullied in the field, nor chased by dogs/ramblers/etc and used to jump out regardless of how much grass was available. He stopped doing it after being brought into regular work.

 

[blitznbobs]

My cob loves horseball … we are pretty crap and play a bit at home (and some polo cross too)but he really sparks up when we play occasionally… and trust me he isn’t stoic at all he knows how to buck and is quite happy to attempt to dump me if I suggest we do some dressage work …

 

[blitznbobs]

My cob loves horseball … we are pretty crap and play a bit at home (and some polo cross too)but he really sparks up when we play occasionally… and trust me he isn’t stoic at all he knows how to buck and is quite happy to attempt to dump me if I suggest we do some dressage work …

Oh and my horses aren’t slaves they are paid workers and the work they have to do is pretty minimal …

 

[Caol Ila]

I went and watched a bit of YouTube - in Horseball, Polocrosse and Polo, the horses’ ears are generally back even in walk with no hands on the reins - expecting the action behind the head, of the stick or the ball or whatever. My mare does similar when leading a youngster - they are behind her head, so is part of her attention - it’s what makes her such a good lead pony, because she sees the issue before I do and responds accordingly.

Horseball has a smaller ‘field’ which doesn’t seem to impress the horses so much, but the videos I watched had very little actual picking up of the ball from the floor - maybe once or twice a match total, and actually not a lot of contact on the reins other than the stop at the end where the goal is. Most riders had them knotted. The others had a bigger pitch to move within so the horses could spread out more, but tighter faster turns and sometimes more bit contact.



In terms of what do horses truly enjoy? Movement, exploration, jumping if built for it and brave enough, and a few enjoy schooling, for a reason I don’t actually know. Why? Survival instincts. Explore or you’ll eat all the grass and die here, or you won’t have a place to go if predators move in or bad weather occurs. Keep moving around your range to minimise parasites and predictability for predators. Keep up the jump ability for escape if needed (weather/predators) and keep fit (so play, enjoy fast movement) for the same.

I buy ferals. They LOVE hacking. So does my homebred (in hand and ponied so far). We mostly hack, and they’ll all start lining up at the gate to wait their turn when we arrive at the correct time of day, there are strops at being left behind and an eagerness to be included in what they see as fun. Transport for us mostly means jumping, so amongst those old enough, there are pricked ears and eye contact when the trailer arrives - me? Please?

None of the current lot are that keen on schooling. We do what is needed to jump and stay muscled enough to carry a rider well, but it doesn’t fill them with happiness the way it did my TB.

My ex ferals could go uncatchable again if they wanted - they haven’t. We only catch for riding and vet/farrier/dentist (fed in the field, loose) so that’s fairly telling in itself. Visitor pony was apparently also difficult to catch before coming here on holiday - she too now begs at the gate for her turn.

Why do dogs like going on walks? Humans doing sport? Why does any animal like to move and explore? We are programmed to produce endorphins when doing activities that enhance our survival chances - natural selection and all of that!

Well said. In the wild, like the real wild, not a five acre square field of grass, there would be tons of movement, mental stimulation, and stress too. They have to dodge predators, fight for breeding rights, search for food in the middle of the desert, cover hundreds of acres, etc. etc. It's not an easy life, but these animals thrive on mental stimulation. Their intelligence and adaptability has been why they pretty much drove the wheels of modern human history.

And you can't deny the impact of domestication and 5000 years of selective breeding, either. I read a piece describing a study of foxes on Russian fur farms, and within a few generations of selectively breeding the calmest and friendliest foxes, the researchers basically had dogs. The animals, even as kits, had different behaviours from 'wild' foxes.

My little ex-feral is very happy to go hacking, and he doesn't mind playing in the big sandbox once or twice a week.

Once you go down the rabbit hole of, 'animals shouldn't exist just for human satisfaction, and they should all be free to live their lives,' you've pretty much gotten rid of all domestic animals. Including your dog. Check out the 'irresponsible owners' thread. Surely, one can argue that you're suppressing your dog's natural instincts and desires by keeping it on a lead and stopping it from chasing squirrels, sheep, horse riders, etc.

 

[Needtoretire]

Oh and my horses aren’t slaves they are paid workers and the work they have to do is pretty minimal …

and you as the owner and many other thousands of us, work a 40 hour or more week to pay for an hour or so with our horses every now and again.

 

[adamntitch]

Has anyone mentioned trick riding horses don't seam to bother when people are going under and over when at full pelt always makes me think tho

 

[Tinsel]

Horse ball does look great fun what I have seen on YouTube along with mounted pony games but Shetland ponies for the grand national looks fun but I am not sure what the cut of point age is for either one does any one know or for pony club

 

[P.forpony]

I had a quarter horse I was training as a reining horse in Canada.
The first time I ever let her near working cattle, I knew without a doubt a horse can enjoy their work.
If a horse ever told anyone to sit down and shut the hell up, she did that day!
They're bred to do a job. They enjoy doing what they're good at.

She was turned out on 280 acres with 30 other horses too. No lack of space, company or stimulation. I whistled and they came into the corals.

I've played horseball too. When you do a pick up, most of your weight is actually through your leg on the opposite side of the horse to the ball your picking up so it's not nearly as unbalanced as it looks, and you time your pick up with their stride so its a smooth rhythmic motion.

Having felt both, I'd say missing a stride or getting left behind at a jump, is a much more significant imbalance or impact to the horse than a pick up.