More social licence questions - Horseball

[Slightlyconfused]

These photos have really made me think. I have a bad something or other and i know if I'm not thinking about it my weight is probably not quite even and this worries the hell out of me. I've even questioned wether i should ride. I mean we are talking really minor, I've asked other people if its obvious and they say no.
Then you see stuff like that, which I'd never really thought about.

That first photo How is the horse even upright!

I have a few friends who play horse ball. They spend ages in hault practicinh pickig the ball up from thw ground and then go into walk. Its all core strenght etc..they get told off by their instructor if the saddle slips.

The stirrups are also held in place by a band underneath over the girth

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I wish I was athletic enough to do it. It’s not a sport I’ve really thought much about although have done RoR parades with some ex racehorses now on the horse all teams.

One of my friends horse ball horses was an ex racer, he hates show jumping, would just demolish the jumps , dressage was a fight but as soon as they tried horse ball with him he came alive absolutly loved the carnage of it.

 

[ycbm]

I've got a very intelligent mare who will put herself on the truck if the ramp is down (or anyone else's truck, which is embarrassing)

The gelding in my avatar not only did that, he jumped the jumps if he was turned out in a field with a course of show jumps in
.

 

[ycbm]

and you as the owner and many other thousands of us, work a 40 hour or more week to pay for an hour or so with our horses every now and again.

Could you explain this a bit further? Are you saying that because most people have to work to obtain a decent standard of living, that somehow entitles us to require horses to do things they may not want to do, or have I misunderstood that?
.

 

[Rowreach]

I do think it’s a stretch to assume that a horse knows the difference between slavery and paid employment.

 

[ycbm]

I do think it’s a stretch to assume that a horse knows the difference between slavery and paid employment.

There are plenty of humans going to work in this country today or tomorrow who feel that difference isn't huge!
.

 

[maya2008]

Being feral/wild isn’t all it’s advertised to be, going on the reactions of my ponies over the years to a downed fence. Those who know the reality of having to find food/water/shelter for themselves, simply don’t leave! Now admittedly with us the downed fence just leads you into another of our fields, but they’ll never go. This is where the food turns up regularly, this is where I’m staying!

Best one was many years ago on livery. NF ex feral screamed her head off until the neighbours came to investigate - they found that the other two had escaped through a giant hole in the fence and wandered down the road. She had not only refused to go, but shouted her head off calling them back!

 

[blitznbobs]

Could you explain this a bit further? Are you saying that because most people have to work to obtain a decent standard of living, that somehow entitles us to require horses to do things they may not want to do, or have I misunderstood that?
.

That is pretty much employment isn’t it… you are required to do something you may or may not want to do… that isn’t the point , you want the benefits it entails , ie cash or other benefit in kind

 

[webble]

That is pretty much employment isn’t it… you are required to do something you may or may not want to do… that isn’t the point , you want the benefits it entails , ie cash or other benefit in kind

Yes but hopefully you get to choose the job you do, enjoy it at least a little and can leave if you aren't happy and look for something else ( I realise this isn't the case for everyone)

 

[Ambers Echo]

Re enjoyment: Lottie definitely enjoys hacking. I can tell because if there are decision points during a hack where you can turn towards or away from home, and you drop the reins and let her choose, she chooses to go further. So then I think about her demeanour on a hack - ears pricked, forward - and she behaves the same way when jumping. Now that could be learned behaviour - she has been taught to trsavel towards jumps fairly fast. She definitely seems to love cross country - but even in SJ she looks for the fences and locks on early and is hard to pull up at the end. And she jogs with ears pricked afterwards exactly as she does after a gallop on a hack. And there is none of the tension I associate with horses who rush fences. She is very rideable.

Her demeanour in the school is more workmanlike. Ears flickering listening for instructions, but i would not say she acts enthusiastic. But equally she does not resent/resist either - though she certainly used to before I changed how I schooled her. On the lunge her demeanour is 'urgh I hate this' so I don't do it.

I think she has a job and it IS a job for her - but equally she is happy to do it. And some parts of the job are enjoyable and she likes getting out and about.

She is another who self loads.

 

[ycbm]

That is pretty much employment isn’t it… you are required to do something you may or may not want to do… that isn’t the point , you want the benefits it entails , ie cash or other benefit in kind

Of course. The question was whether that entitles us to demand things of horses purely for our own pleasure if we know they don't want to do them.

Are you ascribing some kind of logic in the horse where it knows if it gives us a nice hack it will get fed? The stuff that makes people get out of bed and go to work they don't really enjoy?
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[Ambers Echo]

Just to add - at Southview when she was waiting at the entry gate for her turn she was clearly impatient to get going. And maybe that was anxiety but I generally think anxious jumpers nap at the gate, whereas as soon as it opens she jumps forward into canter and is clearly looking for fence 1. She assumes any fence that passes her eye line might be the one she is jumping and the first few seconds, while I make my way to the turn to 1, is an exercise in 'no not that one!'.

I know she knows her job so this all may just be anticipation, but there is zero sense that she is upset or worried as opposed to keen to crack on and confident. Many instructors have commeted how lovely it is to teach a horse so obviously happy to do the job. The day she shows me she does not want to do it anymore is the day we stop and she will embark on her 2nd career as a hacking horse.

 

[Cortez]

Oh and my horses aren’t slaves they are paid workers and the work they have to do is pretty minimal …

Are you their owner? Slaves have owners, paid workers are allowed to quit and seek other employment.

 

[Palindrome]

Just to add - at Southview when she was waiting at the entry gate for her turn she was clearly impatient to get going. And maybe that was anxiety but I generally think anxious jumpers nap at the gate, whereas as soon as it opens she jumps forward into canter and is clearly looking for fence 1. She assumes any fence that passes her eye line might be the one she is jumping and the first few seconds, while I make my way to the turn to 1, is an exercise in 'no not that one!'.

I know she knows her job so this all may just be anticipation, but there is zero sense that she is upset or worried as opposed to keen to crack on and confident. Many instructors have commeted how lovely it is to teach a horse so obviously happy to do the job. The day she shows me she does not want to do it anymore is the day we stop and she will embark on her 2nd career as a hacking horse.

Did you back her yourself?

She has been taught that you do what is asked and then pressure is released. The fact that she isn't reluctant or unhappy to do it doesn't mean that she does it of her own free will. If you offer to a horse at the backing stage not to have a bit in their mouth, they won't take the bit.

If you ask her to trot and she doesn't trot immediately, what do you then do? Do you ask her again or do you think oh well no trotting today then.
If you badger someone to do something that isn't consent.

 

[nutjob]

Are you their owner?

Well yes.

Slaves have owners

Slaves should also take care of their owner and make some contribution. Typically slaves were worked incredibly hard, punished if they didn't work enough and made their selfish owners life easier. Certainly not the case in my house hold. The slaves appear to make no positive contribution whatsoever. I am completely burned out with a winter awash with mud, cleaning up after my slaves, feeding my slaves, cleaning my slaves, assisting my slaves with their physiotherapy, repairing stuff my slaves have wrecked and paying handsomely for the privilege.

paid workers are allowed to quit and seek other employment.

One of mine has downed tools at aged 4 and a bit after only 6 months of employment. Now spending time eating me out of house and home, enjoying the best of private medical care, dentistry and foot care, all shelter and clothing provided, food and expensive supplements served up twice a day. Spends time eating, loafing about, playing with friend, napping, destroying own and friends clothing, disrespecting environment by damaging stuff and wantonly galloping around to maximise the generation of more mud. If he can find a better arrangement elsewhere he's free to leave .

Other one not much better, does go about with someone on his back for a few minutes at walk but that's about it for the last 15months. Even he get's bored with all this leisure time and resorts to self harm so he can go on an all expenses paid trip out to the vets now and again.

 

[planete]

About wanting or expecting to be paid for work. I have started paying Woody for trotting in an energetic onward bound manner. Gone is the grudging heel dragging trot he would offer going away from home. He trots until I say walk then gets a treat before going on. I have never done this before in my life but I am amazed at the difference. I suddenly have an enthusiastic, high stepping cob on my hands without any effort on my part. I only tried it because motivating him going away from home was always a struggle. Even when his responses to the aids became instantaneous his gait was lacklustre and flat. I appreciate not every horse is as motivated by the thought of food but he definitely believes in working for a wage. Perhaps some horses are slave material and others are not? Unravelling how he thinks and feels has definitely been a challenge and different from training my previous onward bound horses.

 

[criso]

Are you their owner? Slaves have owners, paid workers are allowed to quit and seek other employment.

Slaves are also subject to being moved and passed on to another owner with no choice or input.

That's one side of horse ownership I sometimes struggle with. A horse is settled and happy, they have friends and their herd and one day someone puts them in a lorry and takes them away.

 

[paddy555]

Being feral/wild isn’t all it’s advertised to be, going on the reactions of my ponies over the years to a downed fence. Those who know the reality of having to find food/water/shelter for themselves, simply don’t leave!

only the thick ones leave and in the case of my arab stallion he soon realised it was a poor decision.

We were away for a day, got back in the dark and he was missing. He had got out. Obviously the call of the wild of Dartmoor, the wonderful riding country, endless mares, lovely vegetation was to much to miss.


We found him the following morning and the poor little thing couldn't wait to come home. His dream of life as a feral was not all it was cracked up to be. The mares didn't fancy him they had their own stallion. They didn't show him where the water was so he was very thirsty, no one turned up with his evening bucket feed. There was no hay, it was a cold night and no one came with his pj's (rug)

Only took one night in the cold moorland for him to be desperate to return to his "cushy" life where his "servants" obeyed his every whim.

 

[coblets]

Yes horses are not given free liberty but to say that a well-cared for horse is a slave is trivialising the horrors suffered by actual slaves.

Trotting around an arena for thirty minutes a day and then returning to their pasture and friends is really not comparable to being worked or whipped to death or being sold to a brothel to be raped daily.

 

[paddy555]

I had a quarter horse I was training as a reining horse in Canada.
The first time I ever let her near working cattle, I knew without a doubt a horse can enjoy their work.
If a horse ever told anyone to sit down and shut the hell up, she did that day!
They're bred to do a job. They enjoy doing what they're good at.

She was turned out on 280 acres with 30 other horses too. No lack of space, company or stimulation. I whistled and they came into the corals.

I've played horseball too. When you do a pick up, most of your weight is actually through your leg on the opposite side of the horse to the ball your picking up so it's not nearly as unbalanced as it looks, and you time your pick up with their stride so its a smooth rhythmic motion.

Having felt both, I'd say missing a stride or getting left behind at a jump, is a much more significant imbalance or impact to the horse than a pick up.

I'm not sure why horseball has been singled out. If I was going to single anything out it would be riders plodding endlessly around schools "schooling" their horses. Some of those horses must be bored stiff.

I agree horses can enjoy work provided it interests them. That is what to me is important.
At the time, years ago, when sheep were dipped every 5 minutes we used our arabs to gather them on the moor and drive them in. The horses loved it. Not just having to be nifty and fast going up and down gullies, over rocks after the sheep but using their brains to "outthink" the sheep. The same moving cattle or feral ponies.
To them it was a game they loved and I have no doubt our weight on their backs went everywhere as we ducked under trees, hung onto their manes up steep slopes etc.

My endurance arab when he was 6 told me to sit down and shut up. I was still "assisting" him on tracks, going down banks onto roads etc and the day arrived when it was for FFS shut up woman and let me get on with it.

quality of mental stimulation and the chance for them to use their brains is so important.
So many problems seem to happen due to high level competition. At that stage winning is too important.

 

[blitznbobs]

Are you their owner? Slaves have owners, paid workers are allowed to quit and seek other employment.

technically but they are all under 18 as are my children … and the relationship
Is probably more similar. And yes they do quit their job tbh and find something else that they are more willing to do

 

[SEL]

I do think many horses enjoy the excitement of games like horse ball, polocrosse, gymkhana etc.

I used to hack a small games pony and he was a bit of a slug. Totally different if he came off the lorry for pony club and he knew there were races. He was amazing.

The polox horses absolutely loved the game. The minute bandages went on their ears pricked and their whole body language changed. A lot of the riding skills I saw were pretty awful but the ponies seemed to deal with that happily in return for charging around. The best ones knew their job and could even position a muppet like me to catch a ball.

 

[SEL]

I do think many horses enjoy the excitement of games like horse ball, polocrosse, gymkhana etc.

I used to hack a small games pony and he was a bit of a slug. Totally different if he came off the lorry for pony club and he knew there were races. He was amazing.

The polox horses absolutely loved the game. The minute bandages went on their ears pricked and their whole body language changed. A lot of the riding skills I saw were pretty awful but the ponies seemed to deal with that happily in return for charging around. The best ones knew their job and could even position a muppet like me to catch a ball.

 

[criso]

Yes horses are not given free liberty but to say that a well-cared for horse is a slave is trivialising the horrors suffered by actual slaves.

In the past lots of slave owners would have said how well taken care and looked after their slaves were Some horses suffer terrible lives and other animals aretaken from the wild and locked up, then sold and passed around.

The difference is do we use human terms like slavery and regard animals rights in the same way as human freedom?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I cannot believe that with the number of years and amount of experience that some of us have, we still do not understand horses and are utterly deaf to them.

I've been sitting on my hands throughout this thread and don't know what to say at times. Interesting thread here.

 

[blitznbobs]

In the past lots of slave owners would have said how well taken care and looked after their slaves were Some horses suffer terrible lives and other animals aretaken from the wild and locked up, then sold and passed around.

The difference is do we use human terms like slavery and regard animals rights in the same way as human freedom?

To compare the two is offensive to people who were enslaved.
1) horses do not have capacity in the way humans do…
2) slaves were worked at minimum ‘full time ‘ hours most horses don’t do enough work to keep them fit.
3) there are anti cruelty laws which apply to horses … if you don’t look after them, feet, teeth, feed, medical care then there are laws in place to stop you owning them - no such laws existed for people .


I would say most people’s relationship with their horses is more akin to a child parent relationship than an owner slave relationship. They get all the care and love , they sometimes have to do chores that they are not keen on and sometimes they are helpful of their own free will, they both have to learn things that sometimes they don’t want to so they become valued members of the community, they both have to go to school whether they want to or not… and do some exercise whether they enjoy it or not. And you worry about them when they are unwell and sit up all night with them if necessary… there are bad parents out there of course but most do their absolute best for their charges

 

[CanteringCarrot]

there are anti cruelty laws which apply to horses … if you don’t look after them, feet, teeth, feed, medical care then there are laws in place to stop you owning them - no such laws existed for people .

I don't necessarily disagree with most of your points, but this one is laughable at times. Animal cruelty is still far too rampant and the consequences are often null and not upheld.

 

[blitznbobs]

I don't necessarily disagree with most of your points, but this one is laughable at times. Animal cruelty is still far too rampant and the consequences are often null and not upheld.

As is child cruelty it doesn’t make children in general slaves though

 

[Caol Ila]

Uh, can we really compare horse ownership to chattel slavery? Really??

I think the descendants of those who were victims of chattel slavery would tell you to get oan yer bike. It's demeaning to them and downplays the horrors of the antebellum American South to conflate owning a working animal with slavery.

Even going near there entails an argument that animals should have the same rights as humans, in which case we should not have any domesticated animal. You shouldn't walk your dog on a lead, keep your horse in a small field, and definitely shouldn't eat sheep, cows, pigs, chickens, etc.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

As is child cruelty it doesn’t make children in general slaves though

What?

I'm not even going there with the slave stuff or kids. I just meant that animal cruelty laws may "apply to horses" but are poorly upheld and enforced. Just a statement.