More TB feed advice (& Saracen feeds?)

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shampain

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Hiya,
I'm sorry to add to the billions of 'thoroughbred feed' threads, buuut after hours of trawling through past posts I'm still rather undecided and could do with a little help.

Okay so, my girl's a 6yo thoroughbred, raced briefly as a complete baby before being chucked in a field for 6 months, was very underweight when bought by the girl who had her before me. I've had her for the best part of 2 years now, and her weight has always fluctuated. Needless to say, the summer is the best time of year - the only thing that seems to really put weight on her is good grass.
Last winter she lost a heck of a lot of weight - however, it emerged that she wasn't being fed properly by the girl running the yard where she was on part livery, SO she was quickly whipped out of there and we've been on an amazing DIY ever since. She did begin to pick up last year once I was back in control of her feeding, however once it's off, it's always been very hard to get back on.

Currently she's fed twice a day (no way I can rally up that to three, due to my schedule), and the two combined contain 1 scoop of unsoaked Allen and Page 'Calm & Condition'' (yes, I do soak it after measuring out), and approximately 1 1/3 of mollichaff extra (this will probably be switched to Alfa-a oil soon). This doesn't feel in the slightest bit comprehensive, and she's not currently picking up particularly, having dropped some condition in the past few weeks - I'm currently planning on adding micronised linseed to this. She's not underweight, just not ideal, and I'm wanting to make some changes to her diet. She's now coming in at night and has two massive haynets (there's always some left in the morning; haylage is a no-go as she goes batty).She's also rather... flat at the moment. She had an absolutely crazy phase through late spring/early summer, due to grass and various routine difficulties. This has since been sorted out and she's back to her angelic self, however completely lacking her former oomph. She's always been a forwards-going little horse, always the kind to take you into a jump rather than requiring a lot of riding into it, but she's currently just really lacklustre. Now, this may be due to a number of factors,but it just feels as if she may be feeling the change in the weather a bit. She's got quite an impressive coat, however she sweats when worked hard so this will be coming up, and I'm going to be rugging her up more than she has been, as although she tends to feel warm enough, better safe than sorry, no?

OKAY, with that essay over, tl;dr
Can anyone suggest the best balancer/general supplement that won't make her completely nutty?
ALSO,
anyone who feeds Saracen feeds, a rough workout of how much it costs? No stockists around here, and to buy in Re-Leve would cost roughly £17 a bag. Add Equi-Jewel on top and it begins to get expensive. However, it may ultimately work out cheaper than feeding hundreds of different feeds, and Saracen always seem to come highly recommended for tricky TBs.

Thanks!
 
My thoroughbred mare is very hot and stressy, especially in the winter. Have tried her on a fair few feeds trying to find the correct one that doesn't tip her over the edge.

Firstly, have you tried a haylage that has less sugars etc in? I feed my mare haylage but the kind she is fed is fairly dry and not really sweet smelling and it doesn't send her loopy (when most stuff does) and helps keep her weight on.

I have just put her on bailey's performance balancer and was really impressed with the results. She can be a fussy eater but she loves this! and it has made her super shiny and I think also has had an effect on her stiffness and way of going (she is 19).

She is also fed 1/4 scoop fibre nuts and some "grazeon" as she is allergic to alfalfa.

Micronised linseed is also a good option. I don't have her on it atm but have both my youngsters on it :)
 
Calm and condition is the most rubbish feed for conditioning that ever was!! Especially for TB's . They are dull on it and look dull.

You need a high fibre and high oil diet. As much linseed and soya that you can pack into her.

Beware with soya- some horses react the wrong way to this and go high as a kite.

All the feeds recommended for TB's are basically just whopping high in oil amounts and low in starch so Play around with getting as much rice bran, linseed, ( the best oil) into the horse and a really high spec vit and min balancer like saracens stamm30. Combine with a non molassed chaff or just basic horse and pony nut.

Rug up plenty with lots of layers.

always feed hay ad-lib and the best quality hay you can get.

Can you feed hay on the floor as well to stretch the topline?
 
I use c & c for one of mine, you need to give just a little more and all vits and mins will be given no need for any other supplement unless there is something lacking in the forage that needs balancing, if you add any more it will just be wasted.
I use micronised linseed to top up calories, he is on 11/2 scoops, dry, daily, no chaff I give 1 scoop of alfalfa pellets plus salt, he is doing very well, in fairly hard work and has maintained his weight at the same level since going onto it 4 months ago.
 
Thanks all for your replies, life would be so much simpler if horses all responded to feeds in exactly the same manner. Sigh. If only life were so simple.

rowy - She's been on two different types of haylage before, first lot less sweet than the second, though on 1/2 haylage, 1/2 hay at that point and she was less fizzy. Considering how lacking she is in fizz currently, it probably wouldn't do her any harm to try playing around with forage a bit, see if I can give her a combination.

seabiscuit - she tends to do well enough on C&C when I feed slightly over the recommended dose, so I'll see how this goes. If she doesn't put on within the next week then I'll be getting her onto something else pretty sharpish. Are you recommending rice bran/soya oil/linseed on top of hard feed or in replacement of I apologise if I've misread your suggestion. As for the hay, I certainly should be feeding it on the floor - practicality reasons before and I've simply got into the habit, which shall now be kicked. Any attempts to feed her hay in the field beforehand have failed miserably, in spite of the quality of the hay. She just seems to prefer grazing. However, if I can get some haylage into her, this would probably be rather more enticing.

bepositive - I never knew that about C&C. I'll up her intake for the next week or so, see how she looks on that. She certainly has looked well enough on it in the past, which just suggests that she's not currently having enough/there are other factors at play.
 
Eqijewel is brilliant!! Well worth the money!

Agree with others about calm and condition. Never seen it add weight to any horse
 
Yes oil on top of hard feed-for example a good feed would be horse and pony nuts with a couple of mugs of linseed and/or rice bran. You could then add a good feed balancer as well.
 
Don't rate calm and condition at all, OP. I'd be looking to increase fibre through a hard feed, alongside Alpha A Oil (which I love). Mollichop is also a bit rubbish in my opinion.

Feedmark Benevit is an excellent all round vitamin supplement.
 
mine is 7/8th TB - and does absolutely amazing on soaked grass nuts - with micronised linseed - so much cheaper than pure feeds that she was on and she looks far better! she shines! - i just chuck a vit/min supplement in too.
 
I just wrote an entire reply, and it signed me off. Aicchhh. Okay.

So, I should have said that she only lost a bit of weight initially due to my lack of organisation in upping her feed again through October after essentially having only a token feed through the summer. She's since put on weight again on the C&C, however I'm just waiting to see whether, in combination with her work, it'll help her gain some decent condition. Unlikely, by the sounds of it, but as she's not looking bad, per se (I'm simply fussy/worrisome, and she's just a bit lacking in muscle), I'll give it a little while to prove itself, and if it doesn't appear to be doing any good then I'll switch her off it.

The mollichaff I agree is not up to much - as I mentioned above, she was only on a token feed during the summer, and therefore didn't require anything, to be frank. I think I said in my original post, she will be coming back onto the alfa-a oil, as she's always done well on it.

I have, in the past, tried both Feedmark Benevit and NAF Pink Powder - she's flat refused to eat her feeds when they contain either of these, and therefore they're non-starters. I have been eyeing up 365, though, so I'll bear that in mind. ;)

The suggestion of grass nuts is an interesting one, as a yard I worked at over the summer fed only Simple Systems feeds, primarily Red Bag grass nuts and Blue Bag lucienuts. I was considering something similar for a while, so is this along the lines of what you're suggesting, Kezimac?

I would happily switch her onto the Saracen feeds, MillionDollar, if it weren't for the fact that they look to be simply too expensive for me to be able to afford. I can't manage £17 for a bag of feed that will only last around 2 weeks. I'm not entirely sure of the quantities of Equi-Jewel which would need to be fed, and therefore can't work out whether it'd end up as unaffordable, or just be manageable.

SO. Lots to think about, thanks for all the suggestions. She looks better than she has at this time of year for the past two years, I'm just paranoid that she'll end up dropping as she has in the past. She's nice and cosily rugged tonight. :)
 
I get mine from wynnstay (graze on nuts) but any agricultural merchant will sell grass nuts - cows and sheep eat them!! - cost me £7.38 a bag and i soak over night (although 2 hrs and done) and add in vits/mins - you could feed upto 2kg a day if needed - I literally am only feeding 400g a day (dry weight) right now as looks so fab on it! (they are 11% sugar and 1.5% starch so between red and blue grass nuts)

micronised linseed i add in is a mug a day - bought from charnwood milling delivered direct - its about £23 lasts ages and has right amount of omega 3 and 6 oils for joints, good for coat and digestive system and keeps condition on without blowing their minds - mine cannot have high sugar or starch!!!

and i use 365 complete for vits/mins

i dont feed alfalfa as i find alot of horses cant tolerate it - mine def cant!
 
MillionDollar said:
I would definitely either go for Re-leve and Equi-Jewel (which is amazing stuff!), or put her on something like Hi-Fi, Fast Fibre, Micronized Linseed and 365 Complete :)

http://www.equineanswers.co.uk/prodpage.asp?ProdID=1
Click to expand...

^^^^^ what they said!

My lad who is in fairly decent amount of work gets Re-leve, Omega Rice ( rice bran like Equi-Jewel but cheaper) Alfa A oil, linseed and 365Complete... works a treat...! The other lad gets unmollassed sugar beet, Alfa A oil, Omega Rice, Linseed and 365Complete. They have piled weight on and have plenty, but not too much, energy.

Cut out all sugar/mollasses you can, go low starch, get as much rice bran/linseed in them as you can and use Alfa A Oil as your chaff... :)
 
my tb is hunting (lightly) off alpha a oil, d&h barley rings, micro linseed, weight gain mix and as of this week, sugarbeet. split into two feeds a day. lives out. well rugged up but only a blanket clip to maintain warmth.
 
I have a 6 yr old TB too.
I got fed up with not being able to find out exactly was in a lot of the more popular feeds and I didnt want to feed him mixes So I now feed him on Simple Systems. They are very helpful if you give them a call.

He is in great shape having previously lost some weight due to box rest.

Also very important to keep TB's warm to keep weight on

He gets blue grass nuts scattered around the box and two meals of lucie nuts, balancer and micronised linseed and greengold chaff plus add lib hay.
 
If she fluctuates with her weight so much and has a history of stress and looking dull......I would be inclined to check for ulcers before I do anything else?

I would be staying away from an cereals and keeping the starch and sugar content under 10% in a bucket. Calm and condition is 18% - so not always helpful :(.

Those are my personal rules of feeding.

For weight - rely on fibre. It's slowly fermented in the large intestine, keeps them warm and provides 50% of the calorie yield.

Fast Fibre and Speedibeet are brilliant and low impact.

If you need more weight you can use Coolstance copra, oats and soya.

Linseed can provide the omega oils that are lost in the grass now. So that's your joint supplement, coat conditioner, gut muculage, methionine for the hooves and hoof moisture balancer.....all in one :D.

To aid gut digestion I would include Yea-sacc for your horse and I would consider a 4 week course of Egusin SLH and 250 to detox the gut initially.
 
We have recently swapped our horses onto top spec cool condition cubes and they are doing really well on them. I feed them to my horse with hifi and pink powder (you could try brewers yeast if she doesnt like pp). My mums horse who struggles more than mine with dropping weight has them with alfa a, pink powder and carron oil.
Both horses are also having 3 haynets a day at the moment, two at night and one each in the field in the day. My mums horse also gets an extra big bucket of hifi lite at night, to get as much fibre into him as possible.
:)
 
My recommendations would be, either:

Pure feeds
or
Topspec balancer, cool condition cubes, with a bit of Baileys outshine, sugarbeet and chaff (alfa-a or graze on)

If shes a bit "off", it may also be worth either giving her some Global Herbs Restore, or getting the vet out to do a blood test - may have a low grade virus
 
Ohh good post, my ex racer has been on C&C for the last say 4 months - made a good difference but still not enough - a judge who we recently met at an ex racer championship recomended the Saracen show improver which Ive order and am getting friday ... will let you know how he does on it - thats about 12.99 a bag?
 
In the winter I feed my 11yr old TB:

Molichaff condition
Saracens Biolife 2000
Alpha beet
A drizzle of oil
Biotin (for his feet).

He has a good meal twice a day and as much good quality hay as he wants to eat.
When the weather is bad and grass goes I feed Ready Grass as a snack for overnight in his stable.
This diet works well. Try telephoning the nutritionist at Saracens for advice, I've found them very helpful in the past.
Good luck!
 
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