More tedious field drama!

pistolpete

pistolpete

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We’re down to two horses in seven acres. One very sadly died of pneumonia possibly caused by sycamore poisoning. Another has just left with cushings related laminitis.
Two 19 year olds left a TB mare and my highland gelding.
Followers of the saga know it’s an extremely basic set up. Field trough but no tap stables or shelter. Just big field with shoddy fencing and some hedges. Oh and a big sycamore tree!
Since the sad loss of the cob the woman who runs the field penned ours into a third of the field and said we needed to pull the saplings up which we’ve been doing as best we can. There’s hundreds!
Now we’ve run out of hay and the TB is still skinny after winter. My boy of course is still overweight!
TB owner wants to start feeding haylage! Argh!!!
Honestly it’s so ridiculous that I can’t treat my pony how he should be treated. It’s six minutes walk from my house and peanuts in rent. Next nearest option would be three times the price if I could even find somewhere. So moving not an option really. Just wanted to rant!!!
 
pistolpete said:
We’re down to two horses in seven acres. One very sadly died of pneumonia possibly caused by sycamore poisoning. Another has just left with cushings related laminitis.
Two 19 year olds left a TB mare and my highland gelding.
Followers of the saga know it’s an extremely basic set up. Field trough but no tap stables or shelter. Just big field with shoddy fencing and some hedges. Oh and a big sycamore tree!
Since the sad loss of the cob the woman who runs the field penned ours into a third of the field and said we needed to pull the saplings up which we’ve been doing as best we can. There’s hundreds!
Now we’ve run out of hay and the TB is still skinny after winter. My boy of course is still overweight!
TB owner wants to start feeding haylage! Argh!!!
Honestly it’s so ridiculous that I can’t treat my pony how he should be treated. It’s six minutes walk from my house and peanuts in rent. Next nearest option would be three times the price if I could even find somewhere. So moving not an option really. Just wanted to rant!!!
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Pen yours into an even smaller subsection of the one-third of the original seven acres? Electric tape, so they can keep in sight and touch, and obviously as far from the sycamore as the field will stretch? Can he graze in your garden? You’ll just have to creep out and tackle the tree for a long term solution.
 
ElvisandTilly said:
So sorry you’re having problems with your grazing. If you can get access to a petrol self propelled, collecting lawn mower then it’s worth going over the area that has sycamore saplings and cut them down and the mower collects the cut bits. We did this on ours last year as we had so many!
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Yep, but even better if you’ve sprayed and killed those seedlings, first. OP sounds close enough to ‘walk’ the mower from home….
As per other thread, SBK brushwood killer (over counter) if you haven’t a herbicide ticket.
 
Exasperated said:
Pen yours into an even smaller subsection of the one-third of the original seven acres? Electric tape, so they can keep in sight and touch, and obviously as far from the sycamore as the field will stretch? Can he graze in your garden? You’ll just have to creep out and tackle the tree for a long term solution.
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Yes I’m hoping I can do this. It depends on whether she who must be obeyed will allow it!
 
Can you get the tree cut down? Getting rid of it would cure the problem. Otherwise you may need to consider if the convience and low cost is worth the life of your horse....
If the owner is charging you livery however low she has a duty of care to your horse also.
If a horse has already died because of this she coulld find herself in trouble.
Feel sorry for you as its not easy when you have to cope in less than ideal environment.
 
cauda equina said:
Gosh if I were renting a field to someone who wanted to cut down my tree I would say - The tree stays but of course you are free to go if you wish
The sycamore is just the latest thing in a long list of why the OP is unhappy with the setup
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I agree to a point but sycamore and horses are not a good mix. It sounds like moving would be the best solution in the long run.
 
cauda equina said:
Gosh if I were renting a field to someone who wanted to cut down my tree I would say - The tree stays but of course you are free to go if you wish
The sycamore is just the latest thing in a long list of why the OP is unhappy with the setup
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Yes, but forgetting this particular yard and/or other issues on this site - would you rent out your field containing a known poisonous entity, one which cannot be effectively fenced off from seed dispersal, to known-susceptible animals? For example, a yew? (which tree can actually be more safely enclosed away than non-native sycamore can)
What would you do instead with your field, maybe rent it out for market gardening? Just watch the grass growing and dying each year (because taking hay crop is also hazardous)? Offer to pay all vet bills arising from sycamore? Curious, because duty of care will still apply, even if you tell existing tenants to get lost.
In this case, OP’s landlord is currently accepting money as equine grazing land, and one horse has already died, courtesy of the poisonous tree.
A massive problem is the ignorance about this plant, and desperate need for more research into quite how dangerous it can be, and to quite how many species, or whether there is any method at all of rendering sycamores ‘safe’.
Removing it and planting a different species (if wanting a tree in your horse field) seems the obvious and moral thing to do - as a landlord who evidently also wants some rental income from this land.
Perhaps an offered contribution to costs from tenants, since the rent is low?
 
Exasperated said:
Yes, but forgetting this particular yard and/or other issues on this site - would you rent out your field containing a known poisonous entity, one which cannot be effectively fenced off from seed dispersal, to known-susceptible animals? For example, a yew? (which tree can actually be more safely enclosed away than non-native sycamore can)
What would you do instead with your field, maybe rent it out for market gardening? Just watch the grass growing and dying each year (because taking hay crop is also hazardous)? Offer to pay all vet bills arising from sycamore? Curious, because duty of care will still apply, even if you tell existing tenants to get lost.
In this case, OP’s landlord is currently accepting money as equine grazing land, and one horse has already died, courtesy of the poisonous tree.
A massive problem is the ignorance about this plant, and desperate need for more research into quite how dangerous it can be, and to quite how many species, or whether there is any method at all of rendering sycamores ‘safe’.
Removing it and planting a different species (if wanting a tree in your horse field) seems the obvious and moral thing to do - as a landlord who evidently also wants some rental income from this land.
Perhaps an offered contribution to costs from tenants, since the rent is low?
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Yes, I agree. If landowner taking money for grazing horses while they know there is a dangerous tree I think its dodgy.
 
I work on the proviso that the field population is kept to the needs of the fattest animal. If others require more calories they are removed for extra feed etc. So I would push back on the TB owner and say that she needs to find a way to increase calories in her horses diet rather than you having to reduce for yours. She could simply add an oil or linseed to the TBs feed - far simpler than you having to restrict your horses grazing area (to allow her to feed haylege) and then reducing his movement so needing to restrict his intake further.

OP - is the land owner looking to replace the horses that have left or will it continue to be this mis matched combination?
 
Exasperated said:
Yep, but even better if you’ve sprayed and killed those seedlings, first. OP sounds close enough to ‘walk’ the mower from home….
As per other thread, SBK brushwood killer (over counter) if you haven’t a herbicide ticket.
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It’s a dire situation with sycamores as nothing but felling and hand picking seedlings seems to be the only reliable method of eradicating the fatal risk from them.

The toxin still remains in the dead sprayed seedlings for months after spraying:

“
Seedlings

Mowing could potentially decrease the risk due to reducing the amount of toxic material available to eat (but the mowed grass and seedlings must be collected and not left on the pasture). However, by leaving the root in the ground seedlings are more likely to grow back and you may not be able to remove the whole of the seedling.

There are sprays available which kill off the seedlings however studies have found that the HGA toxin was still present in stored seedlings 6-8 months after being sprayed. Dependant on the toxicity level of the individual plant this could be longer. Even though the seedling has ‘died-off’, the left-over plant material still contains the HGA toxin, and therefore would still need to be removed from the pasture4.

Therefore, both mowing and spraying doesn’t eliminate the risk of poisoning and seedlings need to be removed from the pasture. Unfortunately, there is no easy method to remove the seedlings and it's understandable that the logistics, time and resources required to complete this presents a challenge for many horse owners.”

Atypical Myopathy | The British Horse Society

Atypical Myopathy (AM), also referred to as Seasonal Pasture Myopathy (SPM), is a disease associated with horses eating sycamore seeds or seedlings.
www.bhs.org.uk www.bhs.org.uk
 
PurBee said:
It’s a dire situation with sycamores as nothing but felling and hand picking seedlings seems to be the only reliable method of eradicating the fatal risk from them.

The toxin still remains in the dead sprayed seedlings for months after spraying:

“
Seedlings

Mowing could potentially decrease the risk due to reducing the amount of toxic material available to eat (but the mowed grass and seedlings must be collected and not left on the pasture). However, by leaving the root in the ground seedlings are more likely to grow back and you may not be able to remove the whole of the seedling.

There are sprays available which kill off the seedlings however studies have found that the HGA toxin was still present in stored seedlings 6-8 months after being sprayed. Dependant on the toxicity level of the individual plant this could be longer. Even though the seedling has ‘died-off’, the left-over plant material still contains the HGA toxin, and therefore would still need to be removed from the pasture4.

Therefore, both mowing and spraying doesn’t eliminate the risk of poisoning and seedlings need to be removed from the pasture. Unfortunately, there is no easy method to remove the seedlings and it's understandable that the logistics, time and resources required to complete this presents a challenge for many horse owners.”

Atypical Myopathy | The British Horse Society

Atypical Myopathy (AM), also referred to as Seasonal Pasture Myopathy (SPM), is a disease associated with horses eating sycamore seeds or seedlings.
www.bhs.org.uk www.bhs.org.uk
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Agree, can’t leave them, dead or alive, and Elvis&Tilly did state a mower with collection facility. Or you’d have to rake the dead’s out manually. But still leaves the perennial problem of a parent tree….
 
Just a word of warning - I mowed my whole paddock with a mower with a collecting box. Took me hours, but I did every last bit. I was hand-picking but there were too many to keep on top of and I thought it might offer some sort of a solution as I'd seen it suggested. Horse died a week later of sycamore poisoning.

I don't know if he just ate a short seedling and it was bad coincidence, or mowing it actually exacerbated the risk.
 
I've just finished the task of labouriously pulling up every sycamore seedling I can find by hand. It's a right pita, but at least know I now my boys are safe. The trees I have are actually on land belonging to someone else though, and they also don't pull their their ragwort, but the field itself is so much better than the one we used to have that flooded and had a footpath running through it. I really do think manually removing them is the only way to go. I also rake up as many as I can in the autumn once they're all down to reduce the number of seedlings.
 
The trouble is, horses are capable of tight grazing right down low to soil level, just like sheep, so even if mowing, you’d likely have to scalp it ultra-short to get the stems aswell as baby leaflets. Then you’d likely have no grass to feed the horses with anyway, so what’s the point. And scalped grass takes ages to grow back and can become stressed so not necessarily safe to graze.
I’ve no idea if the stems carry the toxin more than the leaves or vice versa. If kikidee’s experience is anything to go by it would suggest stems are toxic. Many standard mowers on the lowest setting is about an inch of grass.

The sycamore trees around grazing land need eradicating really, as when they are having a toxic year, they’re as fatal as yew - which have been mostly eradicated from the farmed/livestock rural areas, and grace private gardens, and churchyards mainly now.

Apparently the sycamore toxin when eaten by cattle isn’t as fatal like it is for horses, on the main, but they can have metabolic changes and their milk has been tested to contain the toxin. Effects on humans from a quick Google are metabolic and similar to ‘Jamaican vomiting sickness’.

If ragwort is on the lethal weeds list to be legally managed by land owners, it makes me wonder why sycamore isn’t on the list. There are plenty of very safe wildlife promoting tree species that can take their place.
 
dorsetladette said:
I work on the proviso that the field population is kept to the needs of the fattest animal. If others require more calories they are removed for extra feed etc. So I would push back on the TB owner and say that she needs to find a way to increase calories in her horses diet rather than you having to reduce for yours. She could simply add an oil or linseed to the TBs feed - far simpler than you having to restrict your horses grazing area (to allow her to feed haylege) and then reducing his movement so needing to restrict his intake further.

OP - is the land owner looking to replace the horses that have left or will it continue to be this mis matched combination?
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No idea! Lease runs out in two years so will leave them anyway potentially.
 
pistolpete said:
Gawd it’s a tedious saga isn’t it? I’m going to pen my boy while the TB stuffs her face on haylage. Time will tell if the sycamores will get either of them! It’s a rubbish situation all round.
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This is a pretty poor , waiting to see if sycamores “get them “ rather than moving them or getting it dealt with.
 
Really really do not understand why you have not moved yet.

If you cannot be bothered to take care of your horse's welfare by removing the saplings (btw, there would still be saplings to remove even if the tree was cut down), exactly as you would, I hope, remove ragwort, that is just lazy and irresponsible if you intend not to move. Though it seems really as far from suitable for your horse as can be; if animals have literally died from poisonous plants no one is making an effort to remove that is really unacceptable.
 
KikiDee said:
Just a word of warning - I mowed my whole paddock with a mower with a collecting box. Took me hours, but I did every last bit. I was hand-picking but there were too many to keep on top of and I thought it might offer some sort of a solution as I'd seen it suggested. Horse died a week later of sycamore poisoning.

I don't know if he just ate a short seedling and it was bad coincidence, or mowing it actually exacerbated the risk.
Click to expand...
🥺 does anyone know whether sycamore is cumulatively toxic, like ragwort? Or whether just eating a one-shot is enough to trigger things in a susceptible horse? And how long from ingestion to onset of symptoms?
 
Exasperated said:
🥺 does anyone know whether sycamore is cumulatively toxic, like ragwort? Or whether just eating a one-shot is enough to trigger things in a susceptible horse? And how long from ingestion to onset of symptoms?
Click to expand...

It’s acute and affects them within hours of ingestion. Individual horses seem to have different tolerance levels to the toxin though and individual trees/saplings have varying toxicity levels. So some horse may ingest quite a lot and not be affected, whereas others it can only take very little.
 
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