Movement/lameness experts (or enthusiasts!)

[BBP]

I'd love your feedback on these videos. I've been playing around with some slow motion videos of the pony in the hope that it's easier for the vet/chiro to see what I'm talking, especially in canter. (The first few and last few frames are sped up, the middle is slow motion).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=wiU3paffvgI

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7QYSKysf0cY&feature=youtu.be

 

[Caol Ila]

I don't think he is lame at all. He looks sound as a pound in those videos. I know you've had a lot of issues with him this past year; if he's had lots of time off, he might just be stiff and lacking in topline.

 

[be positive]

The 3 things that stand out for me are, 1 he is always looking to the outside, 2 he has very little flexion in his hocks in canter although he covers the ground fairly well it lacks real activity, 3 it is difficult to see but I think his back lacks movement, he has a decent topline considering all he has been through, it looks a bit fixed but that may be just that I cannot see it properly in the video as he is rather far away.

 

[ester]

I don't think I can input much other than he looks better than the last video I saw of him.

I have a completely unrelated query though! did he stay black this summer? I was just thinking how dark he looks.

 

[Pinkvboots]

The trot looks good on both reins when he was on the left rein in canter I don't think the outside hind is coming through properly on every stride, when I looked at the canter on the right rein the same leg seems to almost land more to the inside rather than straight if that makes any sense, but it's very difficult to get a good view from a video as they can look awkward because of the angle on the lunge.

 

[Caol Ila]

I agree that all the things Be Positive said are there, but not knowing the horse, they didn't jump out at me as being issues. They might be. How did he move before? Plenty of horses don't have much hock flexion or swing, and that's their natural gait. If he's had lots of time off, he might just be stiff and feeling like he needs to look to the outside to balance on the circle.

Not knowing the horse or having any 'baseline' videos, I think he looks all right. He's not unlevel or horrendously stiff. But if he moved much more fluidly before, then perhaps there is something.

 

[be positive]

I agree that all the things Be Positive said are there, but not knowing the horse, they didn't jump out at me as being issues. They might be. How did he move before? Plenty of horses don't have much hock flexion or swing, and that's their natural gait. If he's had lots of time off, he might just be stiff and feeling like he needs to look to the outside to balance on the circle.

Not knowing the horse or having any 'baseline' videos, I think he looks all right. He's not unlevel or horrendously stiff. But if he moved much more fluidly before, then perhaps there is something.

I have no idea if the points that I picked up on are issues or not, as you say we have no baseline to work from but the OP asked for feedback, which is what I gave, he has had numerous problems and I think she feels there is something still amiss, my horse has had his SI injected and it took months of rehab, then a break, then more steady work until he fully improved, over 12 months later he is still not 100% but considering the prognosis was poor we are doing better than expected, this horse has a far more complex set of problems and it may well take a lot longer before they are all sorted out, often one bit being fixed just shows something else requires doing, it would be so much easier if they could talk!!

 

[touchstone]

I think he looks to pulling himself along with his front end at points rather than using his back end, which would make me think of back/hindleg issues. He also looks slightly more uncomfortable on the right rein at moments too, but that may just be due to one sidedness?

 

[Fun Times]

I agree with everything BePositive said in her/his (sorry!)first post. But it doesnt look horrific KatPT, these are more subtle issues. I have had SI issues with my horse and he moves similarly behind. He is working and doing just fine. However, I am obsessed with literally every movement as a result and if I let it, it can eat me up. Someone once said to me, "you know he has issues, you know he won't ever move like a grand prix dsg horse, now go and make the most of him and stop analysing every step because they won't be perfect." I cried for a while (I am soft like that) then I realised they were right and cracked on eventing him. If I ask anyone on my yard to trot him up for me, they refuse because I had got to the point of asking almost every day. I only say this because I wonder if your brain is doing what mine did and over analysing everything. Bottom line is our horses probably won't ever move perfectly and if you look hard enough you will find problems. I don't mean this harshly, or that you should stop trying to treat him/get him right, just that you need to be practical when setting your expectations.

 

[Speedyfluff]

Firstly, he is not looking bad at all. However he is stiff in his right hind. It is worse on the left rein in canter. He is not flexing his hock as much as he should. When he is brought back to trot on the left rein he looks to have an "OW" moment in his right hind just as he turns away from the camera. Then on the right rein when that right hind needs to drive through and step right under he strikes off wrong and goes disunited. Not a biggy because it is common for horses to do that, but added to the stiffness in canter on the left rein, it may be more significant. When he gets his stride right, that right hind still does not step under as well as the left did on the left rein. So I think he is stiff on his right hind, though not strictly lame. And as Be Positive said, he looks to the outside on both reins which means his body is not correctly aligned.

 

[BBP]

Hi every one, thank you for the input. I know it looks like I'm driving myself a bit crazy over him but I promise I'm not (much!). But I am away on a work course so have plenty of time to ponder on things. Little toad, as soon as I found the slo mo on the camera he decides to look just fine! As most of you have said he doesn't look too shabby in trot (this was the best he could do the week before, not being lazy just kind of stuck https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vo0r_ZzgAR8&feature=youtu.be)
But since I have had him his canter has always been poor, never able to hold a 20m circle as never able to hold the canter behind (the video is almost the first time he has managed a circle on the lunge) and it's always accompanied by pinned ears and a look of hating it. Straight lines hacking is happier but still no power. So your comments on his canter at its best are much appreciated.
Personally I think his issues currently link to his back, it's hot and sensitive to touch

So that's what we are investigating when I get back.
Hopefully if I get the therapy and work right I will be showing you videos of super pony moving that will make your jaw drop!

 

[FfionWinnie]

Does he drag his toes, it's hard to tell on the vid looking on my phone.

How much work had he done in this session before you videoed him working?

 

[BBP]

Does he drag his toes, it's hard to tell on the vid looking on my phone.

How much work had he done in this session before you videoed him working?

He had done about 40mins hand walking on roads then straight to video. He does toe drag a little behind.

 

[FfionWinnie]

How much trotting and cantering is he doing?

My mare would not be "right" in trot or canter until she had been doing both for at least 10 minutes maybe longer if she hadn't been doing enough fast work in the few days before or if her diet wasn't right.

For instance two nights ago I worked her so hard schooling on the stubble she was absolutely dripping in sweat - it was not hot, she is fully clipped out and she is very fit but I was asking for lots of hard work (I'm not suggesting you do this, obviously I've worked up to this).

The next day I went back to the stubble and worked on canter transitions and canter collection. She was able to transition to canter on either leg in a straight line correctly nearly every time and she was also able to canter in a very very collected manner. She couldn't do that the day before and I totally believe she needs the work to get rid of the glycogen to allow her to function correctly.

I would think about videoing him after he has done more work and see if there is any difference to how he is at the start of the session.

When I first get on my horse she feels pretty unpleasant to ride. It's hard to explain but it's like she's moving through treacle and it's all an effort. Trotting feels like I am bouncing off her back. She cannot canter on the correct leg, will struggle to maintain canter and can be disunited, unable to pick up her feet over even a pole on the ground. In short, I believe it hurts. Getting her muscles going is not a pain free process. However after 10- 20 minutes she has loosened up and she is pinging along happily and will jump over 1m no problem and canter forever. She doesn't loosen up until she's done a significant amount of work tho.

I know your horse reacts differently to her, but he's a totally different brain to her Cobby Irish brain so I still think I would be blaming the PSSM (or whatever muscle myopathy he turns out to have). It is a significant limiter to normal life, if that makes sense.

Before anyone starts having a go at me, my horse has PSSM and if left to be a field ornament would probably die or at least become far less healthy than she currently is.

 

[BBP]

thank you, you certainly seem to have got your girls number when it comes to routine. I've really struggled with him as he has been a bit of a liability this year so I haven't been able to put the work in safely to get him fit. Despite the muscle myopathy, the liver enzymes, the sacroiliac, the head shaking and I think the back too I am feeling increasingly positive as with each little thing I am learning more about him and the workarounds for them. I will certainly get some video of him after a bit more work. I have to admit some of the trot work he has given me since his chiro session has been stellar, completely out of this world, despite him being back on grazing properly. His muscles felt squidgy-er to touch instead of like iron so maybe he's just adjusting to the last session.

One other thing I wanted to ask people about is that he has a little bump on his back towards his lumbar spine, probably the last thoracic vertebrae. The chiro said it indicates that his vetebrae is twisted so the edge of the process sticks up slightly rather than same as the others. Has anyone heard of this? She said his pelvis was chronically out of whack and over the years this would have affected his spinal column. Does this make sense? Is it anatomically possible? I wondered if all the work I his pelvis is then making his back feel weird and awkward. I can post a photo of the bump but not sure it's easy to see on a photo.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Yeah I think I would struggle with him too - he's a totally different type to her after all. I was just really trying to show that the muscle stuff is responsible for so much they have to deal with. Luckily that's all I have to deal with with her. You've got a lot more on your plate.

 

[Leo Walker]

I'm going to make yet another post talking about me! But I've been having sports massage type therapy to help with my sacro illiac problems for a few months now. That bit doesn't hurt very much anymore, but I've been through agony with the rest of me, and I'm having to learn to walk in a different way. It hurts! I'm using deep muscles that have been unused for a very long time as I was so knackered. I get weak and shaky, I limp and look like there is something really wrong. But it is getting better slowly Again, might not be relevant, but your horse seems to have very similar issues to me, and I read your posts and just feel like I should say something, even if its no help at all. Let me know if you want me to stop :lol:

 

[DabDab]

Looks stiff in the movement off the off hind in the SI area but only in canter - in trot he looks fine. Given this I would suggest that it's probably weakness/general uneaveness rather than pain or mechanical lameness

 

[Slightlyconfused]

The 3 things that stand out for me are, 1 he is always looking to the outside, 2 he has very little flexion in his hocks in canter although he covers the ground fairly well it lacks real activity, 3 it is difficult to see but I think his back lacks movement, he has a decent topline considering all he has been through, it looks a bit fixed but that may be just that I cannot see it properly in the video as he is rather far away.

I actually agree with all of this. ....plus to my eye I think he looks worse on his right hind the one with the white sock.

Going into canter his pelvis looks locked and he brings his bum higher up if that makes sense

 

[BBP]

I'm going to make yet another post talking about me! But I've been having sports massage type therapy to help with my sacro illiac problems for a few months now. That bit doesn't hurt very much anymore, but I've been through agony with the rest of me, and I'm having to learn to walk in a different way. It hurts! I'm using deep muscles that have been unused for a very long time as I was so knackered. I get weak and shaky, I limp and look like there is something really wrong. But it is getting better slowly Again, might not be relevant, but your horse seems to have very similar issues to me, and I read your posts and just feel like I should say something, even if its no help at all. Let me know if you want me to stop :lol:

No you carry on FrankieCob! It helps to bring some perspective, that by getting better he may be feeling bits that don't usually work. I'll try to keep that in mind.

 

[BBP]

The 3 things that stand out for me are, 1 he is always looking to the outside, 2 he has very little flexion in his hocks in canter although he covers the ground fairly well it lacks real activity, 3 it is difficult to see but I think his back lacks movement, he has a decent topline considering all he has been through, it looks a bit fixed but that may be just that I cannot see it properly in the video as he is rather far away.

These are pretty good observations (given the brief clips to go on of a horse you don't know). they are all the things I see when I watch him.

 

[Illusion100]

The RH movement was what I noticed and imo, it looks high up. He's not wanting to fully use it at liberty and consequentially looks unlevel.

I do not know the history, have diagnostics been done?

(I just watched vids and posted so I've not read comments)

 

[Leo Walker]

No you carry on FrankieCob! It helps to bring some perspective, that by getting better he may be feeling bits that don't usually work. I'll try to keep that in mind.

phew! Honestly, learning to walk without SI pain has been difficult! And the SI pain kicks in when the bits I need to use normally cant hack it anymore and give up the ghost. I leave after a treatment skipping down the road all loose and light. Then I start getting tired and it escalates quickly into shaky exhaustion and waddling like a duck, then having to sit down no matter where I am! I am very fat sadly, which does not help. But he does look a lot better, so he may just be going through something similar?

My therapist has told me that its the deep internal core muscles that havent been used for a long time, and they get tired very quickly and give up the ghost. Makes sense to me as if I tried to use my abs and do a 100 sits ups I'd be crippled, and the internal muscles are the big, supposed to be strong ones, that have literally withered due to lack of use.

All I know, is that a few months ago I was considering a wheel chair and hadnt walked my dogs in months, and now I can walk my dogs I get tired and shaky and funky looking when I walk, but I rest when that happens and then carry on, and its getting better And the pain from those big tired muscles is NOT the horrific pain I had from the SI problem

 

[BBP]

The RH movement was what I noticed and imo, it looks high up. He's not wanting to fully use it at liberty and consequentially looks unlevel.

I do not know the history, have diagnostics been done?

(I just watched vids and posted so I've not read comments)

Hi, earlier this year he had a bone scan of back, pelvis and hind legs and was diagnosed with a sacroiliac injury (caused in field). Also diagnosed with suspected PSSM or other muscle myopathy due to raised muscle enzymes. Sacroiliac was injected and for the next 10 weeks I had my perfect horse, moved brilliantly but more than that his eyes looked really happy and he was loving his work, I could hack alone and ride bridle less and he was totally perfect. Muscle and liver enzymes dropped to normal.

Then end of April I think he started head shaking, rearing (tiny threats), occasional bucking and explosive feeling, panic attacks, stress, head shaking, hypersensitivity to noise and movement, eyes lost all spark and looked like he had massive migraine. Enzymes went right back up (muscle and liver). This went on April to sept. He had head CT which was clear. In sept/October his eyes brightened a lot I the field, head shaking mostly stopped but still stressy, and completely lost all nerve hacking and is very grumpy and aggressive to other horses (usually super friendly and happy). Fine with me but grumpy to ride, again normally very cheerful. Eyes looked dull when ridden/worked compared to previously or compared to loose in field.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

A bit difficult to see because every time I 'got my eye in', either he changed pace or the vid speeded up or slowed down! BUT I would say that his canter is slightly 4-time, rather than truly 3-time and he seemed to track up better with his left hind than his right. He tripped in the first trot/canter transition on both reins. The head tossing makes me think that he is uncomfortable and tbh in general he doesn't look comfortable. Even though his head carriage is quite low, he looks quite hollow in his back.

 

[Illusion100]

Hi, earlier this year he had a bone scan of back, pelvis and hind legs and was diagnosed with a sacroiliac injury (caused in field). Also diagnosed with suspected PSSM or other muscle myopathy due to raised muscle enzymes. Sacroiliac was injected and for the next 10 weeks I had my perfect horse, moved brilliantly but more than that his eyes looked really happy and he was loving his work, I could hack alone and ride bridle less and he was totally perfect. Muscle and liver enzymes dropped to normal.

Then end of April I think he started head shaking, rearing (tiny threats), occasional bucking and explosive feeling, panic attacks, stress, head shaking, hypersensitivity to noise and movement, eyes lost all spark and looked like he had massive migraine. Enzymes went right back up (muscle and liver). This went on April to sept. He had head CT which was clear. In sept/October his eyes brightened a lot I the field, head shaking mostly stopped but still stressy, and completely lost all nerve hacking and is very grumpy and aggressive to other horses (usually super friendly and happy). Fine with me but grumpy to ride, again normally very cheerful. Eyes looked dull when ridden/worked compared to previously or compared to loose in field.

That really is very interesting, it appears SI pain is the trigger for muscle myopathy.

What was the SI injury exactly?

 

[SpanishNeddy]

I'd love your feedback on these videos. I've been playing around with some slow motion videos of the pony in the hope that it's easier for the vet/chiro to see what I'm talking, especially in canter. (The first few and last few frames are sped up, the middle is slow motion).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=wiU3paffvgI

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7QYSKysf0cY&feature=youtu.be

Have you scanned for fragments?

My horse was similar to this. He was not lame, which was supported by vet work-up. But he was lazy and I started to get suspicious when his canter transition became lazy and he would prefer to run in trot than give me the canter. He never used to do this and although he had massively improved schooling wise in other areas.....he would still do this with the canter. I kept putting it off, as my two instructors said he was just being cheeky (he was fine with them although they admit it wasn't an easy request). But I knew something wasn't quite right. For a while I put it down to fitness, then strength but after a year of training I knew it couldn't be that anymore.

His trot was ok, although left rein worse. But canter was our issue. He just couldn't keep it! like you say your horse can't.

Anyway, my boy had fragment in hock! which explains everything for me. So he has just had key hole surgery to remove them. He's already standing much better (totally square! whereas before he would have his LH slightly forward).

Have you x rayed for fragments? this would match the laziness and unwillingness to keep the canter.

 

[cellie]

I'm watching this with interested . Your horse is holding his body and head in same way as mine. I suspect right hind problem but has had Ks op and originally treated si . This week he is very off on his right hind and I'm waiting for vet to visit he's away . The stiffness has become much worse even walking . Have you seen vet ?

 

[el_Snowflakes]

My guess would be issue with right hock or stifle.

 

[soulfull]

My welsh was like this on and off for months. She was later diagnosed with psd and related sacroiliac issues which the physio (vet physio) could not get get a reaction to.