Muck Heap - Complaint, help !

[maybedaisy]

Our yard is on a Bridlepath / footpath that used to be a road but is now at best a track which is a dead end and there are no buildings past us.

We have for years stacked our manure against the wall next to the track as it is easy for the chap who removes it each year to get access to it and also we get loads of individual people coming for manure. The heap does not obstruct the right of way, quite the opposite, it is about 20ft wide passed the heap and about 8 ft wide after it.

Some houses were built about 15 years ago behind the woods at the back of the heap and in the last 3 years we have had a complaint each year about the muck heap. The complaints have gone no where as the heap is on private land as my friend owns up to the wall which includes the old road. However this year the new environmental health woman, brought the highways chap with her who said we have to move it as ' we can't say where the highway is '

Its blatantly obvious where it is as the track goes in a straight line. The muck heap doesn't even smell. What does smell is all the garden waste that the people in the houses have illegally tipped into the woods.

Anyone had a similar experience, got any advice ?

 

[TheSylv007]

See if you can get a look at the Definitive Map at the council - that should at least tell you where the right of way actually is. Sounds like annoying townies.

 

[Adopter]

No experience of your situation, but I do know they can issue a notice with which you have to comply. It might be easier to ask for another site meeting and try asnd agree what is acceptable, and what is private land. You can also ask for the rubbish in the woods to be cleared.

You do not want to get into a situation where you have a legal notice to comply to that is really difficult to sort out.

 

[Polos Mum]

Get her back out with lots of maps and your friends deeds etc. showing where the land boundry is and get her to agree where the 'highway' is and hence where the muck heap can go. You really need these council people on your side (or at least to be broadly in agreement with you) as they can make your life really really difficult. I've been horsey house hunting and have seen places where the council have banned any kind of muck heap at all - it all has to go in a small (specified by council!) trailer and be emptied weekly - must cost them a fortune! So bite your tounge, do some grovelling in and get a plan that they will agree to.

 

[maybedaisy]

He has written to the land owner already ! He only came yesterday. I can't understand why someone from the highways department can't say where the highway is even though it is blatantly obvious to anyone walking down there. I tried to post some pics but I can't work out how to get them from dropbox

 

[OrangePepper]

You need to contact the definitive map officer at your local county council to determine the precise route of the public right of way.

Please be aware that the District Council could use the 1990 Environmental Protection Act (as amended) to have the muck heap removed if they can demonstrate it is a nuisance to people using the public right of way.

 

[smellsofhorse]

If its on private land I cant see how they can make you move it.
Surely its not an enviromental risk.

But then they have thses weird rules.
So who knows!

 

[Funkyfilly024]

He has written to the land owner already ! He only came yesterday. I can't understand why someone from the highways department can't say where the highway is even though it is blatantly obvious to anyone walking down there. I tried to post some pics but I can't work out how to get them from dropbox

Just a tip, a lot of council highways departments now make a point of saying they won't take verbal enquiries, therefore if you put your query in writing to the office you should get a more definitive reply.
I don't know where you are but if you type in your county and rights of way map you should get some sort of interactive map turn up.
Magic Map.gov is also a really great tool for information on land.

 

[maybedaisy]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kvdf15m6mvrxbv2/2014-03-11 16.25.56.jpg

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nd8emnlit3lnr37/2014-03-10 13.15.52.jpg

This our muckheap which is next to the wall. We have actually made the lane wider at this point to allow the tractor to get in and remove it. A few feet further down it is this wide

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r58lalxemprftpu/2014-03-08 16.15.36.jpg

No one who actually uses the lane has complained, there are no access issues. The council are claiming that the bridleway runs up to the wall. If this is the case should the trees be removed then ?

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

If they decide it is a highway, then in theory someone *cough* council *cough* needs to adopt and maintain it and I can't see them taking this on if it isn't a recognised highway now.

Have to admit, it wasn't the way round I had imagined from your description, I thought it was muckheap/wall/highway, not wall/muckheap/highway and while I feel for your friend, unless their deeds state that they own and are responsible for that piece of track, then I should imagine they will not have any leg to stand on in regards to having the muck heap where it is

 

[Orangehorse]

Somewhere in the County Council records there might be a Statement that gives a written description of every right of way, including the width. You have two different council departments to deal with here, the Environmental Department and the Rights of Way department.

Try to reach an amicable agreement, as Councils have a lot of powers to use.

 

[Honey08]

That does seem to be ridiculous, doesn't it. Are the houses immediately behind the muck heap or something?

 

[Penny Less]

From the pics it looks very wet and muddy by the muckheap, perhaps the gripe is that the runoff from the poo, etc is making the track horrible. I know when it was wet our muck heap had "the black lagoon" in front of it.

 

[Fides]

im a bit confused - the pics dont look like what i imagined from what you described... Does the land owner own the 'road'?

 

[maybedaisy]

She owns all the land up to the wall and its periodically very muddy throughout its length not just next to the muck heap. The houses that were built years after we arrivedare about 400 yards to the left behind the trees.

 

[TGM]

If I understand it correctly the yard owns the land the path runs over, and owns it up to the wall, so muck heap is on their own land. Who owns the wall? And what is the other side of it?

 

[maybedaisy]

We've tried amicable but they are being really arsey. Their attitude when they came onto the yard was awful. There are other yards in leeds with heaps next to bridlepaths but they hav'nt approached them. The gardeners love it as they can drive right up to it whenever they want. They are saying its 24feet wide throughout its length but that is rubbish as part of it has walls both sides and is much narrower than that.

The crazy thing is we will just move it to the right of the track into the field. Which will be more visible to the houses.

 

[maybedaisy]

The otherside of the wall is a wood that was planted when the houses were built. Before that it was a field.

 

[Magicmillbrook]

I don't know were you stand with highways, but it is unlikely that nuisance action could be taken. I presume the yard is a business, not a private yard, in which case smell could be an issue. But at the distance you state I would be extremely surprised if the nearby residents were being effected badly enough to warrant an abatement notice. An abatement notice can only be served if a statutory nuisance is occurring. A statutory nuisance is an unreasonable interference with the peaceful use and enjoyment of property. I.e, the residents must be affected in a significant way by the muck heap. The muck heap could come under the 'accumulations' likely to be prejudicial to health or a statutory nuisance, but again at that distance the proof would be tenuous. The only other avenue I can think the EH officer is thinking of would be public nuisance in that 'run off is affecting the right of way, but again I wouldn't want to stand in court and say that it was prejudicial to health.

If the EH officer served a notice it would have to give you a reasonable time scale to move it. You would only get into hot water if you didn't comply. I would not rush into doing anything unless I had to.

 

[maybedaisy]

The EH woman knew she didn't have a leg to stand on re the alleged smell which is why they are now going down the obstructing the bridlepath route. Its completely disproportionate.

 

[JillA]

Get your local ward councillor involved. I had a similar problem, originating from my Neighbour from Hell who frankly bullied the Environmental Health officer into see only his point of view. EHO told me he could stand on the NFH's side of the fence and smell horse wee in June, when I KNEW nothing at all had been added to the heap since April, and NFH's overflowing cess pit was a whisker away. It wouldn't have helped to call EHO a liar, but I was tempted . But they will dig their heels in if you challenge them too blatantly, best thing is have a site meeting and discuss your options with EHO, with your councillor present to ensure he doesn't overstep his authority. I finally agreed to swap muck heap for stack of haylage bales, so NFH no longer had any imaginary smell, but did have a whole pile of plastic wrapped bales to look at - about which he could do nothing .
Discuss your options with EHO, get them on your side and find a way forward. The law uses that awful term "reasonable" which no-one can define, so they can interpret how they want to.

 

[Dry Rot]

Sorry to be a PITA but one look at the photos and it seems to me that they were taken during dry weather and there is already effluent seeping out of the bottom of he heap which extends most of the way across where people will walk.

When there is heavy rainfall adding to ground water seeping out of what appears to be a bank walkers are going to be treading in the stuff.

Sorry about that but for a quiet and peaceful life, I'd get it shifted and not debate the finer points of right and wrong. At the end of the day, you can't beat city hall, though it can sometimes be fun to bate the bureaucrats you're not going to win in the longer term!

 

[maybedaisy]

It does look like effluent but its actually where I have scraped the surface back to reveal the stone track underneath to try and prove that the muckheap isn't on it. The mud in the middle is typical of the make up of the lane and is worse further down where there is no heap. Plus as I said no one who uses the lane has complained its just the eho woman who couldn't use any of her own powers.

 

[jrp204]

If the original ROW was up to the wall then technically the ROW is being blocked, even though the track has been made wider and still allows access. The fact it is all owned by someone it is still a ROW and cannot be blocked (however stupid it all is)

 

[Tnavas]

Generally the ownership of land finishes at the boundary fence/wall. The grass verge on either side of a road belong to the council. The property owner is responsible for maintaining the grass verge.

I would be pretty certain that the muck heap is on council land.

 

[ester]

it's not a road though tnavas?

 

[Polos Mum]

OP, if you have a farmer that comes in and collect it - why not just get that done more often so the heap is much smaller, do that for a while and see if all the fuss settles down.

Once people get a bee in their bonnet about things then you'll waste a lot of time and stress on it - even if you are right ! Is there nowhere else it could go that would be equally convenient for you?

Or have it accidentally catch fire so it disappears.

 

[TGM]

it's not a road though tnavas?

It doesn't seem to be clear exactly what the official status of the track is - in the OP it is described as a bridlepath/footpath, but also says that it 'used to be a road'. I think the first step for the landowner is to check on the definitive map to find exactly what it is classified as. Might also be worth visiting the County Records Office for some research into the origins of the path and see if there is any official description of its width.

Might be worth seeing if you can find any historical photos that might show the track/road as it used to be, as it sounds like it used to be surfaced. Contact local history groups or browse their websites or Facebook pages as lots of old photos are being uploaded onto such sites these days.

 

[ester]

Past the muckheap you can see that is a narrow track/footpath width surrounded by trees so if it was a road it was only one up to the end of the heap and wasn't ever necessarily anything to do with the council (ie just private surfaced track with a ROW going over the top of it. But yes I would think definitive map/records checks are the way to go.

 

[TGM]

Also meant to say, if they can find some old large scale maps of the area, it might show the exact width and boundaries of the track - I know I've seen some maps of our local village that show things like that in quite clear detail.