Multitide of symptoms, tearing our hair out!

[Louisejane]

Hi all

At our witts end with our boy and looking for people who's horses have had similar symptoms and to find out what it was?

We have a 7 year old connie (15hh) who we've owned for 2 1/2 years. Looking back, he has always been a bit grumpy and clumsy and trying to work out if it's just him (shouldn't be without reason) or if he is in pain.

Vet has seen him and is coming out next week to nerve block his hocks, next step Bone Scan if nothing shows. He is currently on Equine Science for suspected Hindgut ulcers and having physio 2 x a week to help relieve any tension and muscle pain.

His on-going symptoms are:

Intermittent Lameness (a couple of times over the last year) He can tear around like a demented stallion in his field and turn on a sixpence
Not quite tracking up with the right hind
Toe Dragging quite bad in trot
Looking stiff across his back (choppy strides)
Reluctance to go forward
Never been able to engage his back end
Struggles in walk downhill (not major, just tentative)
Collapsed in his stable 3 weeks ago for no apparent reason, vet came out and could find nothing, was fine when he stood up
Choke (5 times this year) Scoping is on the cards
Face like a slapped ass when worked on the lunge or under the saddle
Some muscle atrophy to the right hindquarters
Labelled clumsy! Trips a lot!
Switches back feet when stood
Frequently carries his tail to a side but no preference over side
Never had a square halt from him!

After his fall in his stable (3 weeks ago, he was quite lame). 2 weeks on, he has been on Equine Science and he looks sound and is tracking up on the right. Still toe drags and is still a miserable git.

He's had Physio every 2 weeks, 3rd session on Saturday. At his first visit, he was very tight across his back and his shoulders which was worked on. Last visit, there was marked improvement and other than a good work up, there was nothing much to relieve. The vet thinks that because his symptoms are just as prominent on the lunge as well as under the saddle, then it's less likely to be a back issue although not ruling it out.

I've considered everything and I know I need to be patient and wait for the nerve blocks but just trying to see if there are any ideas.

Hock (arthritis)
Sacroiliac (SI)
EPM
Ringbone
Ulcers
RER
PSSM

 

[be positive]

I would go for PSSM from those symptoms, easy to rule in or out and fairly easy to treat as the starting point, he may have other issues but this is the simple one to get sorted first, not sure where the choke would come into the mix but most of the other issues suggested are progressive and I would expect clearer signs although it is very likely he has a couple of problems that could be unrelated.

The PSSM mare here was very similar without the choking or falling over, physio found tightness in areas that were not really expected, lunging was as bad if not worse than ridden, 12 months on she is moving like a different horse and apart from the odd grumpy mare day she is a far happier horse.

 

[Louisejane]

Thank you be positive!! I've looked at PSSM and it does seem to fit but so do other things unfortunately. He is worse on the lunge than when ridden strangely too. The falling has only happened once thankfully and was so out of the blue! Scared us to death but he'd been on a bit of box rest so I wonder if it was too much hay and he tied up maybe, I really don't know anymore.

Do you know how they tests for PSSM?

 

[Casey76]

You can send a hair sample (with follicles attached) to Animal Genetics. It's about £30 (I think!), and doesn't need a vet referral.

 

[Louisejane]

Thank you, I will give them a call, certainly a cheaper start that Bone scans!

 

[Louisejane]

called Animal Genetics now and they have advised not to send off for the testing kit as it doesn't effect Connemara's :/

 

[ester]

That is PSSM1 I believe, I was about to say the same, doesn't mean there isn't muscle myopathy going on though, taking bloods pre and post exercise would be cheaper than starting with a bone scan too, as given the symptoms I think you very much might be working through a list of things to eliminate.

 

[Louisejane]

Thank you. I really don't know much about PSSM and our vet wasn't really interested in discussing it further. Muscle Myopathy, is the same as or similar to PSSM?

 

[ester]

duplicate

 

[ester]

PSSM is a muscle myopathy, it isn't the only one (RER is too) but the only one that has been characterised genetically properly. I know people have been working on type II and it may be offered but not by any of the 'good' labs.

If you test muscle enzymes before and after work you can get an idea if they are involved at all or it is a complete red herring and/or muscle biopsy. I know one sent for a full work up to a referring practice and that was all they did in the end (bloods), it wasn't major but deemed enough of an issue to be generating the symptoms observed.

Of course that doesn't mean nothing else is going on, for instance KatPt on here's pony has RER but has also had SI issues (and maybe some other stuff I can't remember!)

 

[milliepops]

Of course that doesn't mean nothing else is going on, for instance KatPt on here's pony has RER but has also had SI issues (and maybe some other stuff I can't remember!)

^^this, still worth going ahead with the nerve blocks you already have organised because the difficulty engaging, going downhill, lameness, awkwardness behind, stiff back and reluctance to go forward are all common symptoms for PSD and SI problems, and it wouldn't be unheard of to throw spavins into that horrible combination.

Hope you get some answers soon.

 

[Louisejane]

Many thanks! It's so hard to know what to do first. Had our farrier out tonight and he's convinced it's his pelvis. I realise he's not vet qualified but will run the idea of an XRay passed the vet when we speak. He could see the toe dragging clearly and looked closely at his hock and fetlock. Flexed them all fine, no swelling and no issues with him touching them. However, when he was asking him to stretch his leg forward or back the ears went back and he was reluctant, snatching his leg. Also, despite fortnightly physio was reacting to pressure on his back behind where the saddle would sit.

Are X-rays more difficult or expensive than nerve blocks? Tempted just to ask for pelvis and hock X-ray:/

Anyone want a horse??

 

[milliepops]

Nerve blocks would be a sensible place to start if your vet isn't sure where the problem may be. Otherwise you could spend hundreds on random x rays and be no further forward.

 

[SEL]

http://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Investigating-Myopathies.pdf

http://www.lathamdvm.com/articles/tying_up.shtml

I'm pretty sure they've identified PSSM1 in connemaras. Quick google found the breed mentioned a few times in articles.

For the sake of £30, a pair of tweezers and a freezer bag I'd pull some hairs and send them off to the lab.

It wasn't known in New Forest ponies either but there's a lady just joined the PSSM forum who has a registered NF who is positive.

 

[Louisejane]

http://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Investigating-Myopathies.pdf

http://www.lathamdvm.com/articles/tying_up.shtml

I'm pretty sure they've identified PSSM1 in connemaras. Quick google found the breed mentioned a few times in articles.

For the sake of £30, a pair of tweezers and a freezer bag I'd pull some hairs and send them off to the lab.

It wasn't known in New Forest ponies either but there's a lady just joined the PSSM forum who has a registered NF who is positive.

Thank you, they just told me that connies wouldn't get it so no point sending me a kit out. Can I just send off hair without asking for a pack? It also says on their website to let them know if any none stated breeds with the possible condition :/

 

[Louisejane]

Nerve blocks would be a sensible place to start if your vet isn't sure where the problem may be. Otherwise you could spend hundreds on random x rays and be no further forward.

It does make sense, I'm just concerned that there's no difference so they do the other leg only to find it's his back or pelvis. Catch 22 really I guess, all needs ruling out and the affected leg would be the most obvious place to start.

 

[Michen]

I am sure Tiarella on here has a Connie with it.

 

[Casey76]

It's odd that AG won't test. Here is another lab which has PSSM as a standard test for Connies. Unfortunately it's 60€, but again, is a hair test: https://shop.labogen.com/en/order-genetic-test/horse/connemara-pony/

 

[Louisejane]

It's odd that AG won't test. Here is another lab which has PSSM as a standard test for Connies. Unfortunately it's 60€, but again, is a hair test: https://shop.labogen.com/en/order-genetic-test/horse/connemara-pony/

I've just downloaded a AG form and will send off tonight, fingers crossed. At least I'll know one way or another and they can't not test if they receive it can they?

 

[SEL]

I've just downloaded a AG form and will send off tonight, fingers crossed. At least I'll know one way or another and they can't not test if they receive it can they?

They'll test it. Tbh the test is so cheap that its worth ruling it out if nothing else.

Have a search on here for 'lameness locator'. One of the other members has just had vets out with this gadget for her horse and I wonder if it would help you.

 

[Hannahgb]

I would also say it is worth checking Hind PSD and lumbar spine. Mine had pretty much those symptoms and diagnosed with PSD, lumbar issues as well as PSSM

 

[Murphy88]

Has he had a neurological examination? All of the things you listed could be attributed to neurologic disease, particularly the clumsiness, struggling to walk downhill, muscle atrophy, not standing square etc - these are all things we look at in a neuro exam and based on your description there are multiple abnormalities. If you presented this horse to me I would be doing a neuro exam and not a lameness exam. If your vet has not done a complete neuro exam then I would expect that to be done prior to any lameness work up. If neuro exam is clear then you can proceed with nerve blocks, but otherwise I think a full neurological investigation would be in order, CSF taps, X-rays etc. EPM is always top of my list with neuro cases but I work in the USA, if you are in the UK I wouldn't expect EPM unless the horse was imported.

 

[Nudibranch]

I was about to say neuro. I could have almost written your post myself bar the grumpiness. I was quite convinced by pssm at one point as it's very prevalent on here but the vet isn't. So far we have done:
Basic neurological assessment (as a 2yo. Inconclusive)
Several lameness workups
X rays
Nerve blocks
Bute trial

None of those showed anything whatsoever and vet is now leaning towards my original concern of wobblers. So we are looking at neck x rays (plus back and also hocks again in case there's any change) and another proper neuro work up next.

I'm not sure I'd jump to a bone scan just yet, unless he's insured. I hope you get a decent outcome...it's a continual worry when you can't find the answer.

 

[DabDab]

Can't suggest anything that you haven't already thought of, but I do think it would be worth getting the bone scan if insurance will cover it. Even if he does have a muscular condition (which I agree sounds likely), his symptoms sound very SI-centric if that makes sense. And if he has built up a real weakness in that area then he made need help even if his muscles/anything else improves.

 

[swellhillcottage]

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