Munchausen syndrome

[mtj]

As title, does this occur in pet/horse owners?

Just in case anyone is speculating, yes I do know a severe hypochondriac who seems to be into hypochondria by proxy with her animals. But - i do not believe she would deliberately harm her animals. So this post is curiosity rather than genuine concern for an animal.

Thanks

 

[TelH]

I think it can occur in anyone can't it???

 

[agreenhalgh]

interesting question, im sure it could happen to people without children or others to around them they can harm so they cud tur to their horse/pet.. scary thought though. Interesting Post!

 

[mtj]

Yes you are quite right.

What i meant to say, is does this occur in the pet owner to animal relationship?

 

[bailey14]

I am positive that munchausen by proxy can be transferred over to animals. I know of someone who I think is suffering from this and transferring it over to their animals.

 

[Orangehorse]

Well yes I can imagine this happening. The only slight difference is that if a pet is ill we have to pay for its treatment, so the attraction might wear off after a while.

It isn't like turning up at hospital and getting lots of sympathy from doctors and nurses and a warm and cosy ward to stay in.

 

[Janette]

No, it isn't, but the owner of a pet will get the attention of the vet, and other related professionals, just as the parent who has Munchausens by Proxy would get the attention from Health Professionals when their child appears to be ill.

 

[CBAnglo]

That person you know ought to get herself a TB, then she would be cured of munchausen - She would have real injuries to deal with! I can offer her the choice of two ... both well practiced at hospital stays and monthly and sometimes bi-monthly non-routine trips to the vet.

 

[mtj]

Err, i think she would be in her element

. Bit of a vet fetish!

There was total hilarity when it became apparent that her vet practise had started to only send female vets for her call outs. The horse was swiftly moved to another practise

.

Seriously, whilst I do think the hypochondria is attention seeking and manipulative, I honestly don't believe she would deliberately harm.

 

[cptrayes]

Munchausen's by proxy with horse owners - I've seen it several times - people getting an obvious thrill out of the attention from the vet and the remedial farrier. Try offering them a simpler solution and they are horrified.

 

[Aru]

According to our lecturer in animal welfare it can and does happen alright...its Munchausen's by proxy and it's something vet's should be aware of....

people can harm their animals to get the attention

other's will claim they have symptoms that dont exist but demand extensive tests to find out what's wrong

.....the only problem is how do you decide if a dog,cat or horse has or hasnt shown the symptoms?
you cant ask them....if you wrong about your hunch you may be endangering the welfare of an ill animal...if your right in exteme cases they may poision the pet in order to produce the symptoms.....its a minefield

 

[levantosh]

Was there not a case of a woman giving her animals insulin and they were having seizures and stuff, think it was on one of the animal planet programs.
Poor animals.

 

[TarrSteps]

Yes, absolutely.

I've seen it manifest in what I'm sure is a subconscious way, with someone who keeps seeking "diagnoses" for the sorts of things that just happen and resolve in the normal course of things. Not people with horses with frustrating obvious issues that simply can't be diagnosed, but people with horses that seem absolutely fine to everyone else but seem always to have some off thing no one else sees, let alone can diagnose. These owners seem to spend a lot of time on the internet.

(I am genuinely not taking the **** re people with actually compromised horses. But we've all met someone with a clearly healthy horse that always seems to be being worked up for something weird and wonderful.)

That said, yes, I saw what I'm sure was a genuine case. I wasn't around when the first horse got sick (it came into the yard in the middle of the month, trailed by drama about the care at his last yard) but I know he had extensive and only moderately successful surgery for an actual injury, over the objection of the original treating vet. Afterwards, the horse was severely compromised in many ways and required a truly spectacular level of care. He was on livery and it was a nightmare for everyone he was with because no matter how hard anyone tried it was never good enough for the owner and the poor animal saw every health care professional possible, many of whom, privately or openly, felt he should have been PTS. That likely started with an actual incident then became an obsession.

The really, really odd bit was her next horse. Bought as a schoolmaster, he was winning when she got him but was almost immediately "not right". Then there were a million problems with the yard, cumulating in a showdown with the YO where the woman asked that no other livery be able to ride when she did because they all upset her too much as she constantly feared they would get bucked off, run away with etc. (This was a good quality lesson and show barn, with no more than the average number of average riders and some very good ones.) Then it was suggested she have me ride the horse a bit (I rode for the yard) and teach her, as she was relatively novice and we thought maybe she'd be more confident with a bit more schooling and some lessons. This initially went well until I was fired summarily one day with the wonderful reasoning, "I am really not happy with my horse going better for someone else." Um, okay.

Then this horses started to develop "problems" and needed to see the vet regularly, even though the vet kept saying he was just getting on a bit but would be absolutely fine with good management. So she then became obsessed with the amount of shavings in his stall, citing lack in this area as the reason he was not sound. The absolute kicker came when she has a screaming, crying fit one day (not the first) that he had rubbed his hocks raw. Overnight! On a fully matted stall with shavings in it! So we had a look . . . he did indeed have rubbed sides on his hocks . . . on both hocks (unusual, since horses usually prefer to lie on one side) and, more amazingly, inside and outside of both hocks!! If you've ever seen a horse lie down you know the inside of the "top" hock never comes near the ground, let alone scrapes along it.

I am absolutely sure, without a doubt, she did something to the horse. I don't know how she rationalised it. She was clearly mad as a box of frogs but this was a whole other league of crazy.

The YO owner asked her to leave, not surprisingly. Even if nothing odd had happened with the horses we all got such a bizarre vibe off her, it wasn't worth it. (And I've been in horses most of my life - I have a high tolerance for bizarre!)

The really funny bit was about a year later, this woman came up to me at a horse show and started to chat to me like I was her long lost best friend. She's changed her hair and I didn't recognise her but about three minutes in I suddenly realised who she was. My friends said it was brilliant - I suddenly looked like I'd seen a ghost and started to back away quickly, stuttering excuses for not being able to talk to her. I never saw her again but did hear she'd made trouble everywhere she went. But she had bags of money and liked to spend it, so people kept taking her in - they just didn't know what the real cost was going to be until she was in the door!

Sorry, that was a bit of a tale but I would not have believed it if someone had just told me. I guess there are all sorts in the world and if someone could do something like that to their kid, they could do it to a pet.

 

[traceyx69]

How sad - but how would you ever prove if they were harming them deliberately??

 

[Donkeymad]

Maunchausen By Proxy can definately happen with pet/horse owners. As an ex-veterinary nurse, I have witnessed it.

 

[brighteyes]

It's one of those weird 'disorders' that needs quite a few manifestations before you twig what's going on.

I don't understand why anyone, in this day and age especially (with all the alarm bells set to hair trigger and suspicions running high) would repeatedly take their child or pet to a health care professional and risk getting labelled and watched.

Something not right about a person who'd portray anything as being ill in the full knowledge it isn't. I haven't taken my kids to the doctor's since they were toddlers.

I am only too glad they don't need life-saving medical intervention. Long may that be the case!

 

[wizzi901]

IME yes!! I know of two offenders!!

 

[AMW]

I know of one who had Munchausens and when she wasnt getting enough attention turned it to her horses. Our vets got so fed up with her they asked her to use another practice.

 

[AGAGE]

Yes, I can happen.I work as a psychologist- the DSM IV TR- diagnostic and statistical manual, which is used to diagnose mental disorders, refers to Munchausen syndrome by proxy, as affecting another person, rather than animal/pet.

However when animals/ pets are involved, it is often referred to as Munchausen syndrome by pet proxy. There is currently a lot in interest in this area within psychology, and so will no doubt eventually become a recognised disorder.

 

[turkana]

I've met several offenders but nobody who would go as far as actually hurting their animals though.
The ones I've met were people who had horses that they were scared of but wouldn't admit it, so they was a constant stream of excuses as to why they couldn't ride their horse even though of course they really wanted to!
There is also the martyr olympics, where people to compete to have the sickest, most high maintenance horse, so they can prove how worthy they are by tending to their poor horse constantly.

 

[Mike007]

On the other hand,an awfull lot of what sense about our horses,is from subliminal signals that somthing may not be right, and yes, a vet may get brought in for some pretty nondescript "symptoms" by a worried owner. I do agree that Munchausen by proxy occurs,but equaly there are caring owners picking up on somthing that maybe the vet cant find so I think people need to be very carefull about labeling people.

 

[BeckyD]

Haha I read your post without seeing it was you, CBAnglo, and thought oh that sounds like you and me. And then it was you! Haha. Who needs Munchausens syndrome when you've got a TB?!

 

[jendie]

I've known several people whose animals are victims of munchausen by proxy. I'm sure the owners have the best interests of the animals at heart and genuinely believe they are right in their diagnosis - usually of some very rare condition. It is sad and it is also dangerous because if they convince a vet to prescribe the medication itself can cause additional symptoms - side effects of the drugs - and lead to a spiral of additional meds, additional symptoms etc etc. I don't think these owners intend harm, this is a psychiatric problem and they need help. Sadly they don't realise that and it is almost impossible to convince them.

 

[CBAnglo]

Totally agree with Mike007. I am sure to the outsider I could have munchausens since my horse wasnt lame, just "not right" for a long time and we spent a lot of money trying to figure it out and several vets told me that there was nothing wrong with him - he just had an attitude problem and needed more schooling! It wasnt until he became properly lame 2 yrs later that we actually found out what was wrong with him.

But I assure you - I have had enough of ferrying him to and from various vets and hospitals for tests and I think he has had enough of being ferried about only to have needles stuck into him. Am sure RonnieToo can totally relate!

 

[criso]

[ QUOTE ]
Who needs Munchausens syndrome when you've got a TB?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me about it.

It's Munchausen's by proxy the owner would have isn't it? Found the following definition of Munchausen's

"In Münchausen syndrome, the affected person exaggerates or creates symptoms of illnesses in themselves in order to gain investigation, treatment, attention, sympathy, and comfort from medical personnel"

Substitute horse for person and veterinary personnel for medical personnel and you have a description of my TB.

 

[TheHBomb]

I found this discussion after googling 'munchausen's by pet proxy' after having a most interesting discussion with my yard owner about the livery in the stable next to mine. This livery is a girl of 20 years old who is unable to hold down a full time job and finds working 3 days a week too much and receives vitamin injections because she doesn’t eat properly. Perhaps this is the ‘Munchausen’s’ bit. She is quite novicey but of course thinks she knows it all and was bought a 4 year coloured cob gelding by her parents a couple of years ago. It became apparent rather quickly that this horse had no respect for her and she allowed him to work all over her literally as well as figuratively speaking. He then started becoming “lame” and she temporarily stopped riding him after a vet diagnosed a locking stifle which is not uncommon in young horses when they are growing. His behaviour when being handled by her become more and more aggressive and she told everyone on the yard that the pain in his leg from the locking stifle was causing him to become psychologically unstable and dangerous and she had him put to sleep. I do understand (having been there myself) that when animals are put to sleep the owner feels their loss keenly and cope with it in different ways but her ‘mourning’ for him was rather macabre. She put a bouquet of flowers on the stable door and then a card with some verse about ‘Gypsy Gold’ on it. Two weeks before he was put down she took him on a riding holiday weekend, jumping and doing cross country with no problems whatsoever and then he suddenly went “downhill”. I firmly believe there was nothing wrong with the horse that a competent owner could not have dealt with.

A couple of months after her first horse died her parents bought her another one. This is also a coloured cob which is a cracking pony and has scored over 70% in dressage tests when out competing. For the first few months everything seemed to be okay but then he also began allegedly exhibiting signs of “lameness” unnoticed by anybody else. She then sought advice from a “Bowen” therapist who is doing the round of the numpties on the yard who told her that the saddle this pony was sold with and which was a perfect fit was too tight for him, and that he had a bad back and was psychologically unstable because he put his ears back at her and bucked when being lunged by her. I did warn her about this man and his tendency to say that every saddle he looked at didn’t fit the horse (but that he could sell her one that would fit!) but was told “Well I like him”. I can only imagine this is because he encourages her in her delusions. He has also told her that this pony has one hip higher than the other which is an underlying problem that the previous owner knew about! Which is miraculous then that it wasn’t picked up on the 5 stage vetting that the pony passed when he was purchased!

A suitable amount of time had passed and it seemed possible that this girl would actually have to ride this pony when one morning an absess “burst” on his face and she called the vet out saying that he had been bitten by a snake. In his stable. In January. Suggestions that perhaps it was a thorn from the hedge in his field or if it was a bite, a rat bite was met by the firm conviction relayed to everyone on the yard that asked that it was SNAKE bite despite me overhearing the conversation with the vet when they said it was unlikely. The pony then started rubbing his mane and neck (more than likely caused by the over rugging and overfeeding of a hairy cobby pony that is never exercised) but in her opinion a reaction to the snake venom and she called the vet out again and had steroid cream to put on him. She has now asked for biopsies to be taken so that the type of snake that bit him can be identified. As the only native species of snake are the adder and the grass snake (which both hibernate) I can only imagine what she is hoping to find! Rattlesnake venom perhaps! My yard owner is not entirely convinced she didn't stick a fork in his face herself!

Having the stable next to this pony I have also noticed that his previously impeccable stable manners are also deteriorating. He now kicks the door and barges in and out of the stable. It is very sad but I can see this pony going the way of the first. He is now not even worth a quarter of what she paid for him. The girl is completely mental and yet to all intents and purposes she looks normal! She makes out she’s going to do lots of things with him like working hunter and take him hunting when she hasn’t ridden him for weeks and I cannot remember the last time she hacked him out. I only wish I had enough money to buy this pony before it’s too late as I can see him ending up like the other one.

Apologies for this novella but it’s a soapbox of mine and it is fascinating to hear other peoples’ experiences of these nutters especially when proving any of it is well nigh impossible!

 

[popsicle]

Since I have been on a diet and lost weight I have developed Munchausens by proxy. I keep buying all the cakes and things that I can no longer eat and try to feed up my friends and family

 

[apes_mum]

Omg, it is absolutely possible.
We have one at our yard. Her pony appears to suffer from imaginary illnesses, ans the owner loves being the centre of attention. If she isn't, she will engineer situations to get it.
People have stopped riding out with her, as she will deliberatly set situations up for 'accidents' to happen.
Strange things happen at the yard, but only when she is there on her own.....
All very very bizzaar!!
She's a bit of a standing joke at our yard now. Everyone knows what she's like. But if you told her, she'd be totally horrified.
We just keep an eye on her. Trouble is, now when anything happens, everyone thinks it's probably just 'her kicking off again' whether it is or not. And I guess thats the danger.

 

[Darkly_Dreaming_Dex]

I do hope that none of this is a dig at me- i have had a real run of bad luck with Jacob(coffin joint issues), io (did DDFT hooning in field) and my OH (broken back and a stroke scare) ATM but i can assure everyone that in NO WAY would i wish a fraction of the cr*p i have had to deal with on anyone.Sometimes sh*t happens and i get fed up with seeing people abuse their horses and get away with it when mine want for nothing.. I dont have the time or the inclination to make things up, and have more problems in the last 20 months than the previous 20 years of horse ownership.

FWIW Jacob's MRI which OH paid for with his own money showed collateral ligament damage which is why he has been intermitantly lame for 2 years..

 

[lillith]

I doubt this was aimed at anyone particularly. I have a friend who is paranoid about her horse but the damn thing really is always injuring itself. She also overreacts to mino scrapes but as he has anaemia and low WBC (diagnosed by the vet while checking for a virus) I can see why. I think there is a fine line between a sensetive TB owner who picks up on every time the silly creature manages to pull/bruise/knock itself but would genuinely love it to be healthy and someone who enjoys martyring and bandaging. Without knowing the individual it is kinda hard to draw a line at the bottom end. Of course someone who deliberately injures their animal for attention is obviously sick and needs help.