Munchausens by proxy in owners

[Mongoose11]

I recall an episode that began six months ago or more. It started with a lame step and ended with the horse being PTS. A friend of mine called it on that very first day that the horse would end up being PTS without a doubt and as sure as eggs is eggs...

It was clear that the mental health of the owner was more of an issue than the health of the horse.

 

[SEL]

Ironic that I should see this thread today - I swear my pony is setting me up to look mad.
In autumn she had a cought that went on for a few weeks and wasn't going away. I called vet to chat over symptoms and ask if he thought she needed looking at. He came out to look at her...from the moment he pulled up in the car park she stopped coughting and hasn't coughed since.

And now...she's been showing classic ulcer symptoms for about 2 weeks. Wants to take my head off when I change rugs. Done a few sloppier than usual poos. She has been stuffy for a long time and all sorts of other investigations have been done. So this along with the new extreme grumpyness meant I called the vet yesterday to see if hind gut issues might be the cause.
Yesterday evening she was sweetness and light and practically wanted to hug me.
This morning for the vet she was absolutely fine.
I'm going to borrow a go-pro to prove I'm not loopy!

& that's why I took a video of mine before her lameness work-up! Nothing like a visit from the vet to find you're trotting up a horse that is foot perfect. Mine is also a bit of a diva and capable of taking chunks out of people. Whenever I give people warning she flutters her eyelashes and looks like butter wouldn't melt. I have absolutely no doubt there are professionals out there who have me down as totally neurotic.

 

[Polos Mum]

I think people deliberately harming horses for attention is (thankfully) rare - pretty common on yards I've been on are owners that don't want to ride their horses (usually when overhorsed and have had a few bad experiences) who then decide the horse is lame and has to be retired permanently. I think they find retirement through illness more acceptable than selling the horse, which is totally fine as horses are well looked after in retirement!!
I saw one lady retire three horses in a row that the vets could find nothing wrong with - because all the vets that looked at the horses in question didn't know what they were talking about/ were too inexperienced to see real lameness .........

 

[honetpot]

This is my pet theory.
We see more images of fit and healthy people and horses than we do sick people and horses, as society we think if someone is ill they go to hospital to be fixed but in reality people are living longer and some conditions are managed and you have to live with them.
Horses are living longer, and the one horse owner usually from a non large livestock background finds out there is something wrong with their horse, but they have not the experience to compare it to, so they have to go through the whole range of investigations and treatment. When perhaps needed some basic investigation and management, or even what they see as broke is actually within a normal range. There are also lots of people out to make money out of other peoples insecurities.
I am sure there are some people who actually have MSBP, but a lot of people just love drama and the excuse not to ride and spend more time chatting.

 

[Cortez]

Munchausens by proxy is not just being a bit of a hypochondriac about your horse, it's deliberately harming the horse in order to draw attention to oneself.

 

[YorksG]

Munchausens by proxy is not just being a bit of a hypochondriac about your horse, it's deliberately harming the horse in order to draw attention to oneself.

This^^^
The condition leads to the person with it harming beings for whom they are responsible, so children, vulnerable older people, people with LD and animals, they will create illness and injury, rather than imagining them, the OP's vet should stick to animal diagnostics!

 

[rara007]

To be fair I do see it pretty regularly with small animal clients!

 

[Nudibranch]

You don't have to be physically harming in order to qualify. Treatments and medication for fabricated issues are still mbp. I should know; I've had to deal with 2 cases recently where adults were doing everything in their power to have children given prescription meds, physio, a and e treatment, etc, where none were needed. The vet was referring to the same thing but for an equine...and to be fair to him it's in his job description to try and do the best for the animal!

 

[YorksG]

You don't have to be physically harming in order to qualify. Treatments and medication for fabricated issues are still mbp. I should know; I've had to deal with 2 cases recently where adults were doing everything in their power to have children given prescription meds, physio, a and e treatment, etc, where none were needed. The vet was referring to the same thing but for an equine...and to be fair to him it's in his job description to try and do the best for the animal!

Were the adults in the cases you are talking about given that diagnosis by a Consultant Psych? I'm surprised as anyone with that definitive diagnosis who I've worked with have had to do harm, rather than imagined/fabricated illness.

 

[moosea]

My checks go as follows for my mare:

1) looks normal, no blood or swelling
2) is sound
3) eating/drinking/pooping

I think that perhaps the influx of owners in recent years, who have not really spent any time around horses is part of the problem. They worry that they have too little knowledge and look up things on the internet and become convinced that their horse suffers with it ... even if it is a really rare illness.

Where Damnation can run an experienced eye over a horse in a few seconds or minutes, a novice owner wouldn't know what to look for and therefore may feel that they have to watch for the symptoms of illness and disease, rather than look for signs of good health.

 

[rachk89]

You don't have to be harming the human/animal to be diagnosed as munchausen by proxy. Just lying about symptoms covers it, leading to giving bad evidence (false urine tests for example) and to the worst actually causing harm.

I don't think people who find excuses not to ride can always be in this category though. People will find many often elaborate reasons to not ride just because they aren't confident even when they havent over horsed themselves. My confidence used to be rock bottom and I would say I can't ride because the horse looks a little down/sleepy/he ate 4 hours ago etc. I wouldn't get on any horse let alone mine on those bad days. That was my issue not his and I was never trying to say he was sick, I was looking for any excuse not to ride. Until you have hit that level of self hatred because of your own insecurities, you don't fully understand how easy it is to find any excuse to get out of doing something. I never would have thought it possible but fear controls you very strongly.

I can totally believe though that there are people out there who do this and would be easily diagnosed. My aunt did this with her own son pretty much although as far as I am aware she never actually harmed him. She also developed Munchausen's syndrome for herself. I think it was through jealousy of how much attention her son got as he was born disabled but then she encouraged the attention. I will never understand that woman's mind she is quite horrible.

 

[ester]

Are people on here aware of the Monica Thors case in the US? I'm not sure whether it totally fits the brief because I am not sure how much good attention she was getting on social media at the time.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Munchausens by proxy is not just being a bit of a hypochondriac about your horse, it's deliberately harming the horse in order to draw attention to oneself.

Good point.

When mine was on/off lame recently, I feared the worse. He's a heavy weight cob, my only horse. I was heartily relieved when the vet diagnosed and found an abscess. I'm otherwise not precious, honest! It was in his arthritic leg, I know, I know, he's due another cortisone injection, I'm ridiculous!

I do think some people anthropomorphise their animals, even a vet couldn't see swelling in a friend's horse's leg, but she stayed all night in the stable, convinced the horse had lymphagitis. The horse was perfectly fine. I suppose better safe than sorry, but I feel very sad reading some of the anecdotes on here.

 

[little_critter]

No idea re the cough, but I think the recent grumpiness and sloppy poo might mean that she was in season. My companion pony does that

Ok - just so people don't think I called my vet out because my mare was in season, I'd be genuinely interested to know what other HHOers would have done (not being defensive - just wanting to educate myself).

A normally laid back, tolerant mare starts acting aggresively when changing rugs. Very strong threats to bite (and one minor kick) when touching around the chest and girth area. I have also noted a few sloppier than usual poos (not cow pats, but looser than usual). This behaviour has gone on for 2 weeks.

It's the middle of winter, weather has been below freezing overnight for most of that 2 weeks. Hard frosts, daytime temps of 0-5 C ish. So not spring like weather to confuse the mares.
In the last 5 years of ownership her seasons have been so mild that I often don't know when she is in season. Her attitude and handling haven't changed in the past when I've known she's in season - very level headed other that the odd flirt at a passing gelding.

What would you have done regarding the sudden and strong attitude change? Left it a bit longer? Told her to suck it up and behave herself? Self treated with something?
I genuinely want to know what others would have done because I really don't want to be the yard nutter.

 

[sport horse]

The old days of keeping your horse in a livery yard where the owner was a 'professional' and gave good advice to novice owners have gone.
Too many people buy a horse, read a book and know it all.
Too many people ask the vet then ask every other know nothing on their yard and disregard the vet.
Too many people over horse themselves in pursuit of their dream that they will be a good competition rider and rather than face reality (yes that is a word, not much known in 2017!) that they are not such a good rider and need a huge amount of instruction and practice, they find ailments in the horse to avoid actually having to ride it.
Obviously this is not everyone but in my experience it is very common.

 

[TheHairyOne]

I genuinely believe a once livery on a once yard I was on actually had this.

There was no doubt 2 of her horses were ill, Laminitis, but she had also confirmed that she had lost 7 (!!) others to this as well. Nothing else on the yard including a number of native ponies out 24/7 ever suffered.

They were being fed mare and foal mix 3 x a day, haylege (3-4 nets a day for the 15.2 draught type), the 3rd horse got almost no turn out, was 'afraid of the dark' and claimed to have a number of other things wrong. At one point she turned up with yellow tape and sectioned off a 2' wide area in front of her stable as the horse was 'infectious'. It wasn't. It was however completely neurotic, probably due to management.

It was heart breaking watching the pain her horses were in - one of them was put down, but the other did have the pedal bone drop through the sole and was STILL kept going - against vets advise obviously. Watching her load that onto a lorry when she left the yard was one of the most awful things I have seen, but I will confess it was a relief to see them all go.

The RSPCA kept giving her little ponies too, why I will never understand. Also luckily we are in a very horsey area as she went through a lot of vet practices too.

Horrible.

 

[ester]

Not unlike Monica then apart from at least they were getting veterinary treatment rather than having their feet home treated

 

[meleeka]

I genuinely believe a once livery on a once yard I was on actually had this.

There was no doubt 2 of her horses were ill, Laminitis, but she had also confirmed that she had lost 7 (!!) others to this as well. Nothing else on the yard including a number of native ponies out 24/7 ever suffered.

They were being fed mare and foal mix 3 x a day, haylege (3-4 nets a day for the 15.2 draught type), the 3rd horse got almost no turn out, was 'afraid of the dark' and claimed to have a number of other things wrong. At one point she turned up with yellow tape and sectioned off a 2' wide area in front of her stable as the horse was 'infectious'. It wasn't. It was however completely neurotic, probably due to management.

It was heart breaking watching the pain her horses were in - one of them was put down, but the other did have the pedal bone drop through the sole and was STILL kept going - against vets advise obviously. Watching her load that onto a lorry when she left the yard was one of the most awful things I have seen, but I will confess it was a relief to see them all go.

The RSPCA kept giving her little ponies too, why I will never understand. Also luckily we are in a very horsey area as she went through a lot of vet practices too.

Horrible.

I knew someone many years ago that caused every horse she had to be pts with laminitis. Each horse only lasted about a year with her. She always had Welsh D's that got fatter and fatter until they looked like they were going to pop.

 

[Olly's crew]

I think you are noticing two different types of behaviours and these are probably generated by different thought processes/ needs.

MBP, as said before would be where someone was inducing illness (eg administering insulin/ salt, to induce illness. I understand the theory behind it is that the person seeks a feeling of connection/ support/ acknowledgement by doing this.

I suppose the over vigilance and over reporting of symptoms or 'seeing problems that do not exist' would tend to be more like health anxiety, where the person thinks that there is an underlying problem that will result in serious consequences. This is where the perils of Dr. Google and over checking/reassurance seeking step in

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Are people on here aware of the Monica Thors case in the US? I'm not sure whether it totally fits the brief because I am not sure how much good attention she was getting on social media at the time.

I had to look that up. It's beyond horrific.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Ok - just so people don't think I called my vet out because my mare was in season, I'd be genuinely interested to know what other HHOers would have done (not being defensive - just wanting to educate myself).

A normally laid back, tolerant mare starts acting aggresively when changing rugs. Very strong threats to bite (and one minor kick) when touching around the chest and girth area. I have also noted a few sloppier than usual poos (not cow pats, but looser than usual). This behaviour has gone on for 2 weeks.

It's the middle of winter, weather has been below freezing overnight for most of that 2 weeks. Hard frosts, daytime temps of 0-5 C ish. So not spring like weather to confuse the mares.
In the last 5 years of ownership her seasons have been so mild that I often don't know when she is in season. Her attitude and handling haven't changed in the past when I've known she's in season - very level headed other that the odd flirt at a passing gelding.

What would you have done regarding the sudden and strong attitude change? Left it a bit longer? Told her to suck it up and behave herself? Self treated with something?
I genuinely want to know what others would have done because I really don't want to be the yard nutter.

Mine would have got a slap on the neck/rump for biting/kicking or threats to and told NO, tied up for rugging and the poos put down to the change in weather causing frosty grass. If the poos got sloppier I'd worm for encysted worms as those emerge all together at this time of year and cause diarrhoea/colic/damage to the gut. My horses are wormed but if one was displaying wormy signs I'd assume something hadn't worked/been sufficient. The thought of calling the vet wouldn't even have crossed my mind for those symptoms.

 

[Mongoose11]

Ok - just so people don't think I called my vet out because my mare was in season, I'd be genuinely interested to know what other HHOers would have done (not being defensive - just wanting to educate myself).

A normally laid back, tolerant mare starts acting aggresively when changing rugs. Very strong threats to bite (and one minor kick) when touching around the chest and girth area. I have also noted a few sloppier than usual poos (not cow pats, but looser than usual). This behaviour has gone on for 2 weeks.

It's the middle of winter, weather has been below freezing overnight for most of that 2 weeks. Hard frosts, daytime temps of 0-5 C ish. So not spring like weather to confuse the mares.
In the last 5 years of ownership her seasons have been so mild that I often don't know when she is in season. Her attitude and handling haven't changed in the past when I've known she's in season - very level headed other that the odd flirt at a passing gelding.

What would you have done regarding the sudden and strong attitude change? Left it a bit longer? Told her to suck it up and behave herself? Self treated with something?
I genuinely want to know what others would have done because I really don't want to be the yard nutter.

Personally, I wouldn't have called the vet but I may have reassessed her rugging (are you allowing her to be too warm?) and I would have started some kind of stomach friendly approach - perhaps reconsidering haylage if she was on it.

Then I would have watched and waited.

 

[Goldenstar]

I had to look that up. It's beyond horrific.

It's beyond terrible .
Can you imagine a mind so taken over by illness that you have lost all grasp on reality it makes you frightened that you might ever lose your own .

 

[ester]

I felt uncomfortable putting up a link not in its own thread without a separate warning somehow

For those that don't know it seems she induced lami in harness horses off the track and then used them to experiment with her special form of trimming and treatments.

 

[little_critter]

So a sudden and dramatic change in behaviour is not an indication of uncomfortable horse? If I had stated she was suddenly bucking under saddle then HHO would have said get saddle / back / teeth checked. Why not look into the reasons why she is suddenly aggressive? (not just tell her off)
No - I wouldn't say she is too warm, I tend to rug on the cooler side.
How long would you watch and wait?

PS - vet checked poo yesterday and she has a low count which leads him to think it's not connected to worms.

 

[Mongoose11]

So a sudden and dramatic change in behaviour is not an indication of uncomfortable horse? If I had stated she was suddenly bucking under saddle then HHO would have said get saddle / back / teeth checked. Why not look into the reasons why she is suddenly aggressive? (not just tell her off)
No - I wouldn't say she is too warm, I tend to rug on the cooler side.
How long would you watch and wait?

PS - vet checked poo yesterday and she has a low count which leads him to think it's not connected to worms.

I wouldn't class becoming grumpy in the stable in winter as a dramatic change in behaviour. Had she been trying to pin you, barrel you and rear on you then maybe.

My answer was based on my own experience - doesn't mean you were wrong to call the vet.

I own a mare who's behaviour changes with the seasons. I work round it and she is healthy. You sound unhappy about my response - apologies that it is different to yours. If she did nothing else than what you are describing and her poo was not consistently a problem then I would put it down to weather/grass changes and see how she was come Spring.

 

[meleeka]

Ok - just so people don't think I called my vet out because my mare was in season, I'd be genuinely interested to know what other HHOers would have done (not being defensive - just wanting to educate myself).

A normally laid back, tolerant mare starts acting aggresively when changing rugs. Very strong threats to bite (and one minor kick) when touching around the chest and girth area. I have also noted a few sloppier than usual poos (not cow pats, but looser than usual). This behaviour has gone on for 2 weeks.

It's the middle of winter, weather has been below freezing overnight for most of that 2 weeks. Hard frosts, daytime temps of 0-5 C ish. So not spring like weather to confuse the mares.
In the last 5 years of ownership her seasons have been so mild that I often don't know when she is in season. Her attitude and handling haven't changed in the past when I've known she's in season - very level headed other that the odd flirt at a passing gelding.

What would you have done regarding the sudden and strong attitude change? Left it a bit longer? Told her to suck it up and behave herself? Self treated with something?
I genuinely want to know what others would have done because I really don't want to be the yard nutter.

Mine lives out for most of the year. She gets like this when she's fed up, usually coinciding with the arrival of mud. I put her in for the night with a nice deep bed and she's back to normal the next day.

I probably wouldn't call the vet immediately but would work through all the other possibilities first.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

So a sudden and dramatic change in behaviour is not an indication of uncomfortable horse? If I had stated she was suddenly bucking under saddle then HHO would have said get saddle / back / teeth checked. Why not look into the reasons why she is suddenly aggressive? (not just tell her off)
No - I wouldn't say she is too warm, I tend to rug on the cooler side.
How long would you watch and wait?

PS - vet checked poo yesterday and she has a low count which leads him to think it's not connected to worms.

Yes it's an indication of an uncomfortable or stressed horse, but I don't go to A&E (or even the GP) every time I've got an upset tummy for a few days/feel grumpy and snap at people.

Egg counts in poo are from eggs produced by egg laying adults/dead adult worms actually in the poo. Encysted worms emerging don't fit this criteria and won't show up on a faecal egg count. I'd wait and see for a few weeks, only worming if things got worse or if I knew I hadn't wormed for encysted worms at all that winter. If things stayed the same I wouldn't worry.

I don't feel the need to diagnose every little not-quite-right thing, I can accept that something is not-quite-right and that it will either resolve itself with time (sometimes a long time) or will get worse and need diagnosing/treating. I take this approach because it's too expensive to diagnose everything, too time consuming to be constantly waiting for the vet/test results and all the time not riding the horse (the reason for buying one), too pointless because without definite symptoms it's difficult to diagnose things. Basically I don't fuss and faff, if there's nothing obviously very wrong I carry on as normal.

In terms of behaviour, I expect horses to behave in a reasonable manner no matter what. Things need to be treated and that sometimes means doing painful things to horses, the handler needs to be safe and that means the horse knowing certain behaviour isn't allowed. If I touched a broken leg and the horse kicked out I'd find that understandable because of the severe pain, but threats to kick over a slightly upset stomach wouldn't be tolerated by me.

"I'm feeling a little bit ill" isn't an acceptable excuse for bad behaviour IMO. If she suddenly started bucking under saddle, she'd feel the whip, I'd raise my hands (to raise the head) and kick her on (to minimise bucking) and it would be put down to grumpyness or cold weather making her fresh, though I'd also check saddle fit myself when I got off just in case I hadn't noticed a gradual weight gain/loss. Teeth don't cause bucking IMO so if tooth rasping was up to date I wouldn't be worrying about that and I don't have backs checked as a matter of course. I have a bad back, I still have to do what needs to be done, I don't have extensive private treatment every time I'm a little sore. I guess I don't expect my horses to be top competition athletes either though, if you're expecting top performance I guess everything needs to be 100%, but a horse of mine having a bad day because it perhaps tweaked something in the field doesn't get a vet/physio, it gets a few days/weeks of easier work. A horse that suddenly starts bucking gets a smack, I'd only start investigating if the bucking was severe and continued over a long period of time (consistently weeks/intermittantly months).

 

[little_critter]

I wouldn't class becoming grumpy in the stable in winter as a dramatic change in behaviour. Had she been trying to pin you, barrel you and rear on you then maybe.

My answer was based on my own experience - doesn't mean you were wrong to call the vet.

I own a mare who's behaviour changes with the seasons. I work round it and she is healthy. You sound unhappy about my response - apologies that it is different to yours. If she did nothing else than what you are describing and her poo was not consistently a problem then I would put it down to weather/grass changes and see how she was come Spring.

Sorry to be a little defensive.
But it sounds to me like you are aware your mares mood changes with the seasons.
My mares mood has not changed with the seasons in the last 5 years...so this was an unusual change in behaviour for me. And she wasnt just a bit nippy, these were strong 'back off or else' signals.
It went on for 2 weeks, are you saying you would have left it 3 months? (spring)

 

[little_critter]

Egg counts in poo are from eggs produced by egg laying adults/dead adult worms actually in the poo. Encysted worms emerging don't fit this criteria and won't show up on a faecal egg count. I'd wait and see for a few weeks, only worming if things got worse or if I knew I hadn't wormed for encysted worms at all that winter. If things stayed the same I wouldn't worry.

The vet did say this but also said there is usually a carryover of eggs too, so if there was a large worm emergence then he would also expect to see more eggs too.

You say you'd start investigating a buckiing horse after a few weeks, this behaviour change lasted two weeks consistently. I didn't pick up the phone the first day she tried to bite.
I guess it's difficult, on one hand you are told "you know your horse best", then on the other you are brushed off for being concerned about what seems to be a strong behaviour change.