Musings: changed horse, unshod TB & 'barefooters' advice please?

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orangepony

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My rising 5yo TB had his front shoes removed yesterday (backs have been off for approx 6months with no problems). His front feet have looked appalling in shoes since last summer, despite farrier working to stop the spread and flare. Back feet are super quality and look like they are on a different animal!

His behaviour and action has changed in the last three months, with resistance to ridden exercise becoming apparent. Our first thought was gastric ulcers as he is has been kicking out at leg aids for canter trans, picking at forage (selective anorexia?) but happily eats low sugar, low starch, high fibre/fat feedstuffs. No ulceration found on the endoscopy so vets are now following a few weeks test trials, feed allergens/bute/steriods/acp.

In the meanwhile horse has ripped one front shoe off hooning around the field and has destroyed the foot; so farrer decided to remove both shoes to allow a bit of recovery; so much so that the damaged hoof (only 1 afternoon in field with stony gateway) didnt have much to nail to.

Horse is now very sore without front shoes on gravel track to field and I am keen to get some hoofboots asap to make him more comfortable walking to/from field.

Can anyone recommend some hoofboots for very flat, flared feet, with very little heel and weak horn? Farier is not a fan of 'barefoot' but could see no option; especially combined with his thought of either low grade laminitis or potential suspensory tweaking (front or hind).


Horse has access to medium quality grazing, hay when in stable prior to exercise or when stabled during adverse weather, and has been having copra meal, calm & condition and unmollassed S/B during winter. during allergen trial this week just having hay and will probably stick to this from now on with the addition of a balancer/vits &mins as required.

I have had horses unshod in the past; but I have the feeling this chap is going to actually need a 'barefoot' approach; which I am lacking knowledge of. He was destined to be promising young event horse but so far a list of niggles & growth spurts have meant progress has been slow. Just to add, this horse was fine during winter, and last summer on the same style of management routine (albeit in a different area of the country!).

Apologies for the very long post; chocolate croissant & some nice filter coffee on offer!
 
My TB had his shoes off in January, terrible feet, he was very sore! I have had to turn him out in boots for 3 months and stable him at night on a deep bed. I have Lucy Priory to help me and with her help and a change of diet his feet are starting to recover, I am sure she would be able to advise you!
 
Oh super news that someone else has gone through this; did Lucy Priory advise in person or via email?

Is your horse now becoming adapted to not having shoes on now? Do you mind me asking what boots you have used for t/o; as some of them appear to be flimsier/clumpier than others?

Thank you :)
 
My six yo TB had his shoes removed on Saturday his feet where badly spilt and visibly flaring I am concerned that as he's still growing ( unfortunatly) that his feet where tring to grow to and this is causing part of the issue. I bought him last August I know he has never been without shoes since three and a half years and it's likely he was shod a while before that as he was in training before this.
I was hoping to enjoy the summer with him but like you I just had to remove the shoes I knew if I waited I was storing up trouble.
Staight after removal we walked him up his walk immediately freeer in front so I know he has pain from the shoes.
His hind feet are a terrible shape a bulge on the wall at the front and a horrible concave dimple in the sole at the front ( I intend to have this xrayed ASAP )
Yesterday he was sore especially behind he is turned out at night in for about six hours a day I am not doing anything except that a the moment until the vet has taken a look.
The trimmer said in his option we will get a lot of flaring as his feet adjust he wants the vet to see the hind feet where he thinksthe bulge is his pedal bone getting pushed up ( his toe is very long ) I will see the vet on Wednesday .
Not any help for you here except you aren't alone but it's an investment now in our horses future basically we miss doing what we want this summer instead of having a lame horse later and regretting not taking action .
I recommend the ok feet first by Nic Barker that set me on my way with my first shoeless horse and reading all the threads on here.
I use as trimmer for my shoeless ones it's helped me learn a lot as like yours BF is not my farriers thing.
Good luck
 
Forgot to say, I use Cavallo boots with comfort pads in, these have been great they have stood up to tearing round like a lunatic, very rarely come off and they are very easy to put on and off, I do put some padding in the heel area to stop rubbing!
 
OP, I firstly spoke to Lucy on here and then I arranged a consultation with her, she is lovely very knowledgeable and caring, I have also often had advice from other experienced barefooters on here!
I don,t know where you are based but Lucy is in Kent she travels to me in West Sussex.
Has your horse got any other problems or just poor feet? my boy has navicular which is why it will take me more time, yours may improve much quicker, I would definately get a trimmer to help as I found my farrier was just not interested!
Good luck!
 
Thank you very much Pines of Rome, did you buy the cavello boots online?

Goldenstar: It is so nice to hear that someone else is going through this at the same time; it would be handy to compare notes as they progress. I need to find a trimmer I think; although it appears that there is a dearth of them in Yorkshire!

I really hope your horse adjusts well; I am a little disheartened that this year is going to be mostly a write off in terms of progression but the feet he has are mostly a hinderance to his movement (and are one of the contributory factors of his stuffy upright in-front I think). It is like you say that action now will hopefully prevent future problems.

I just hope I am doing the right thing and that 3 months down the line he is not dog-lame and in agony because his rubbish feet have crumbled to nothing. :(


I will try to post some photos tonight of his flat and flared feet so we can compare start points; it is always interesting to get another opinion and sadly I daresay there are more knowledgeable barefot advocates on here than my farrier is; probably as they are a holistic barefoot approach rather than my experience of simply 'unshod'.
 
OP, I did buy my boots online, some time ago now as I had tried previously to go barefoot, unfortunately I was going through a bad spell with him got the vet involved and I relented and he was put in bar shoes, which firstly I thought I had done the right thing as he came right and we were back out riding but over a period of six months he went downhill again and his feet fell to bits, so now if we have a bad spot I just pop his boots on!
You will need to measure his feet, I think the Saddlery Shop are very helpful and they are about £ 80
 
PoR- you have been very helpful, thank you. I will measure his feet this afternoon and do some online shopping tonight! I have read elsewhere that camping mat duct-taped on can offer some temporary relief so that may be tonights plan of action until the hoofboots arrive!

Thankfully he has a nice deep shavings bed to come in to; although he does have to negotiate the gravel track beforehand....(tape up feet prior to bringing in?!).

I will contact Lucy Priory on here and see if she has any suggestions or advice for me :)

My boy came with no shoes on after being turned out to let down to from his last race (he ran twice); and retrospectively I feel I should probably have left him to grow new feet rather than pop shoes back on again. C'est la vie.
 
The thing that shouts out to me is the persistent flare you describe. Flare ime is dietary I am almost afraid to say due to being labelled a fanatic. :(

Excess sugars in grass and hay are my number one culprit followed by a mineral imbalance or deficiency. If you are unable to go on a detective mission and possibly radically alter diet for a period of six months at least initially then it's a case of managing the flare, but don't forget it is still there and indicates compromised lamina connection.

Can't help with boots I'm afraid but glad you're going to use them. Good luck.
 
At work so can't reply fully but just re the boots.

I had some Boa boots which I used to use for my tb when he pulled shoes and they were great for typical tb flat feet.

However they don't fit him now as his feet have changed so much. Not too big or too small just plain wrong.

So be prepared that what suits him now just out of shoes may not suit 6 months down the line.

If you were nearer I have 2 pairs in different sizes that you could try but if you look around you can get them second hand quite cheaply.
 
amandap: i have wondered whether excessive sugars are a conributory factor; have heard that racehorses (& ex) have incidents of laminitis which would link to the sugar intolerance. Do I need to be sectioning field/soaking hay? Horse is a skinny minnie anyway though and I had hoped that my existing low sugar high fat diet might be quite 'foot friendly'; although your experience indicates not. I have no experience of horse laminitis although my sisters pony was prone and we were very stringent with him.
Regarding minerals- the horses are currently at livery, but move between differing fields; and are likely to relocate to another area of the country in the coming months- how valuable is mineral imbalance and is it something I should do now or wait until relocated? Hay is supplied on farm and we used to test ours when we baled but the livery yard we are at presently does not have a forage analysis (bales are some on-farm and some from local farmers).
I really want to do right by this horse, as trapped in this gangly body is a talented animal, but we can't utilise him until these changes and niggles are solved.


Any advice is greatfully received; I am between the proverbial rock and a hard place as without rehabbing his feet I don't think he will ever adjust sufficiently to hold a shoe in future if needed; and due to his excessive flare and under-run heels he is shuffling rather than striding out.
 
criso said:
At work so can't reply fully but just re the boots.

I had some Boa boots which I used to use for my tb when he pulled shoes and they were great for typical tb flat feet.

However they don't fit him now as his feet have changed so much. Not too big or too small just plain wrong.

So be prepared that what suits him now just out of shoes may not suit 6 months down the line.

If you were nearer I have 2 pairs in different sizes that you could try but if you look around you can get them second hand quite cheaply.
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I have also found Boa good for flat flared round feet. Never once come off even in deep mud or fast work, and easy to re tighten out hacking with the 'dial'
 
amandap said:
The thing that shouts out to me is the persistent flare you describe. Flare ime is dietary I am almost afraid to say due to being labelled a fanatic. :(

Excess sugars in grass and hay are my number one culprit followed by a mineral imbalance or deficiency. If you are unable to go on a detective mission and possibly radically alter diet for a period of six months at least initially then it's a case of managing the flare, but don't forget it is still there and indicates compromised lamina connection.

Can't help with boots I'm afraid but glad you're going to use them. Good luck.
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After reading all the posts on her I was convinced that the flaring on my first BF project was caused by diet . It took my trimmer to practically shake me and say I have seen the horse it's not dietary the horse was responding to imbalances in his feet caused by shoeing and his feet where adjusting to allow for this seven months on this flare that I was sure was caused by diet will be gone within the month so I am ready for this next horse to flare as his feet are bad and the first horse had great feet ( by a farriers standards )
You need to patient for this BF thing to work seven months and my first horses feet are still changing and adjusting and he is a horse with good feet I suspect my TB will have a harder time of it.
 
orangepony said:
amandap: i have wondered whether excessive sugars are a conributory factor; have heard that racehorses (& ex) have incidents of laminitis which would link to the sugar intolerance. Do I need to be sectioning field/soaking hay? Horse is a skinny minnie anyway though and I had hoped that my existing low sugar high fat diet might be quite 'foot friendly'; although your experience indicates not. I have no experience of horse laminitis although my sisters pony was prone and we were very stringent with him.
Regarding minerals- the horses are currently at livery, but move between differing fields; and are likely to relocate to another area of the country in the coming months- how valuable is mineral imbalance and is it something I should do now or wait until relocated? Hay is supplied on farm and we used to test ours when we baled but the livery yard we are at presently does not have a forage analysis (bales are some on-farm and some from local farmers).
I really want to do right by this horse, as trapped in this gangly body is a talented animal, but we can't utilise him until these changes and niggles are solved.


Any advice is greatfully received; I am between the proverbial rock and a hard place as without rehabbing his feet I don't think he will ever adjust sufficiently to hold a shoe in future if needed; and due to his excessive flare and under-run heels he is shuffling rather than striding out.
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I would restrict grass and feed soaked hay. You should start to see a difference quite quickly but of course the whole hoof capsule will have to grow out to get full benefit. Feed plenty of soaked hay and possibly a good mineral mix (forgage plus winter mix or Equimins advance complete for eg.) as well as salt and yea-sacc in speedibeet. That would be my dietary choice in the absence of forage analysis. Lucy P. will give you on the spot advice about this though. You could give two to three feeds of speedibeet to help with weight. Although gastric ulcers were clear there may be hind gut upset which the above diet will help with. Again Lucy will have advice here too.

I really think you are making a great decision to rehab your horse and take the time it takes. I really wish you the best. x Diet may be able to be less strict when you get on top of things, it will be a case of seeing what balance suits your horse and you.
 
Goldenstar said:
After reading all the posts on her I was convinced that the flaring on my first BF project was caused by diet . It took my trimmer to practically shake me and say I have seen the horse it's not dietary the horse was responding to imbalances in his feet caused by shoeing and his feet where adjusting to allow for this seven months on this flare that I was sure was caused by diet will be gone within the month so I am ready for this next horse to flare as his feet are bad and the first horse had great feet ( by a farriers standards )
You need to patient for this BF thing to work seven months and my first horses feet are still changing and adjusting and he is a horse with good feet I suspect my TB will have a harder time of it.
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I'm sure imbalance causes problems but diet is still important imo and in my experience. I of course don't have any training or see a variety of horses though. I'm glad you don't have any dietary issues with your horse's flare though. That must be such a relief.
 
My TB has a pair of cavello originals for her fronts. We very rarely have them on now but there are there for emergencies and have been a total godsend.

A year down the line and the backs look brilliant, we are 9 months in on the fronts and they are still a work in progress, but look 100% better than they did in shoes and all the bad flair is gone now and we have a tighter foot, with the supportive flair her conformation requires.
 
amandap said:
I'm sure imbalance causes problems but diet is still important imo and in my experience. I of course don't have any training or see a variety of horses though. I'm glad you don't have any dietary issues with your horse's flare though. That must be such a relief.
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It's been fasinating watching his feet adjust them selves he had very strange back feet the inside half being much smaller than the outside we have assumed that this is something to do with being driven in a team ( as I had another horse with feet like this) he very quickly changed the angle the back feet where growing (his feet 95% self trim ) then after about three months the angles changed again and them again his back feet are almost equal sized now if you half them it's a big difference .
The difference in the thickness of the walls is amazing I really can not take how much it's changed .
He does have a very healthy diet no horsey macdonalds low sugar haylage and I keep him in during the middle part of the day at the moment.
Eating wet grass does however make him more senestive on the hard so I just use his boots when he works.
The longer I work him the more confident I get and having I lovely helpful sensible trimmer has helped me a lot.
I am lucky to have had him as my first the TB is not going to be easy.
 
Goldenstar said:
It's been fasinating watching his feet adjust them selves he had very strange back feet the inside half being much smaller than the outside we have assumed that this is something to do with being driven in a team ( as I had another horse with feet like this) he very quickly changed the angle the back feet where growing (his feet 95% self trim ) then after about three months the angles changed again and them again his back feet are almost equal sized now if you half them it's a big difference .
The difference in the thickness of the walls is amazing I really can not take how much it's changed .
He does have a very healthy diet no horsey macdonalds low sugar haylage and I keep him in during the middle part of the day at the moment.
Eating wet grass does however make him more senestive on the hard so I just use his boots when he works.
The longer I work him the more confident I get and having I lovely helpful sensible trimmer has helped me a lot.
I am lucky to have had him as my first the TB is not going to be easy.
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It's fascinating watching hooves change isn't it. My TB has been my biggest 'teacher'.

Orangehorse, I forgot to put micronized linseed in the diet. :) It's especially important when grass is restricted for the omegas but great for general skin condition and a good provider of fat/oil.
 
I did wonder whether the addition of linseed would be beneficial.
I am going to fence part of the field off for this horse with well grazed grass (part of their winter grazing) and give him the evenings out and stable during the day until he is more comfortable. The more I think about it the more something like sugar intolerance would explain his reluctance to move properly and the changes in his stance and behaviour; despite no clinical signs of lameness or heat in the feet.


I look forward to seeing a difference in his demeanour and feet over the coming weeks and months (fingers crossed I am doing the right thing!!).

Thank you for all the input so far; I am going to measure his feet tonight and place a query with the saddlery shop for their advice.

Thank you for the input so far; any snippets of info or advice are very welcome!
 
Stick with it Orangepony. I pulled the shoes off my tb - who was straight from racing - in January. It took a while to adjust to it for both of us but it's been fascinating! After a few weeks his feet started to sort themselves out and tweaking his diet helped too. He had his first trimmer visit yesterday - 4 months after having his shoes removed - and he needed very little work as he is effectively self trimming.

The first few weeks were hard and I was questioning everything but he's doing so well now I'm sure I've done the right thing for him. I've just did the same thing to my mare who was showing front foot issues.

Good luck.
 
OP I manage a TB with poor feet - and living out on decent grass and with good forage available, she stayed skinny with a poor coat.

After lots of detective work, I have realised that a negative ulcer result doesn't mean the horse's digestion is in good order. Hind gut problems do not show up on a gastric ulcer test, but they do affect the horse's condition in a very similar way. I now suspect failure to thrive in TBs may well be linked to this more often than not.

What has helped this mare is: (a) the opposite of what you would expect - limiting her access to grass, (b) feeding yea-sacc, (c) watching for loose poo or particularly unpleasant smelling poo - and feeding activated charcoal when this happens, and (d) feeding a fibre based, low starch/sugar feed (she gets Fast Fibre, unmolassed hay chop and micronised linseed, and restricted access to grass but forage always available.

Since doing this, her feet have started to improve, there's less flare and the horn quality has improved. Just a thought - but sometimes, when a horse fails to thrive, it is because their gut just can't get the nutrients out of all the good stuff we feed them.

ETA - Cavallos - very easy starter boots, and well priced compared to the alternatives.
 
Brightbay said:
What has helped this mare is: (a) the opposite of what you would expect - limiting her access to grass, (b) feeding yea-sacc, (c) watching for loose poo or particularly unpleasant smelling poo - and feeding activated charcoal when this happens, and (d) feeding a fibre based, low starch/sugar feed (she gets Fast Fibre, unmolassed hay chop and micronised linseed, and restricted access to grass but forage always available.

Since doing this, her feet have started to improve, there's less flare and the horn quality has improved. Just a thought - but sometimes, when a horse fails to thrive, it is because their gut just can't get the nutrients out of all the good stuff we feed them.
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Found the exact same thing with my boy.... for the first time ever I am actually happy to have rubbish grazing!
 
Scarlett and Brightbay - yup find this time and time again. But the hard (very hard) part is persuading people to stop stuffing their TBs full of sugar and horsey equiv of McDondalds!
 
I have a TB that has not had shoes on for 18 months. Fed on a normal diet, normal grazing and normal hay. Never had any problems, and quite happy to go for a walk down the road (on the road) without any shoes. Not in heavy work, so does not need shoes, and will not be getting them on until she does.
 
Can't offer any real advice as just coming out the other side of it with my ex-racer who's shoes I pulled Dec 2010.

No underlying issues like navic that I was aware of but having lost two (shod) horses to navic I came on here looking for answers. Thankfully CPTrayes was like a terrier with a rat (in the nicest possible way!) and that led me to buy the Pete Ramey & Nic Barker/Sarah Braithwaite books. I am extremely grateful to CPT (and the other members of the barefoot Taliban) for her persistance and following help and support once I had "seen the light".

As I said nothing specifically wrong with my horse but I'd decided BF was the way forward. He is over at the knee and I had a gut feeling that the increased concussion in shoes would come back to haunt us within a very short period of time...

It was strange as once his shoes came off he seemed to fall apart. It was like he'd been on the cliff edge and taking the shoes off allowed/enabled him to have a system meltdown. I know I'll get shot down as this sounds all airy fairy but it's like the shoes were the last thing holding him together?? I've traced his full history and he's been in shoes/ridden work since at least 18mths if not younger.

I've struggled with trimmers and it's only now I've got trimmer no.4 recommended by a HHOer that I can see the finish line in site.

I know over a year seems like a long time (there have been other issues with non-feet related injuries, extreme weather, unsuitable yards/grazing etc) but I truly believe it will pay off and I'll get many more years to come with a sound happy horse.

I feed my boy on speedibeet as a base and linseed with Progressive Earths Pro Balance +. He's also fed ad lib haylage (as that's what is available on the yard, I'd prefer hay). I'm fortunate that he's a good doer also but he is extremely sensitive to grass (or was last year) so I'm constantly checking for a digital pulse. I did struggle with what to feed as some trimmers recommended one thing, others couldn't discuss nutrition in any depth, some are yay for seaweed and others a definite no and forage analysist isn't really an option given field rotations and differing hay/haylage sources. I'd give Mel or Ross at www.progressivehorse.co.uk a call. They make the Progressive Earth supps that you might have seen on eBay; Pro Hoof is often recommended on here.

Current trimmer suggested looking for Old Mac G2 boots 2nd hand from eBay (softer so they don't rub once broken in) to help with heel first landing.

I'm kicking myself for not taking photos throughout as the change has been immense and still more to come.

Basically what I'm trying to say is stick with it. It's not easy and you have to be pretty tunnel visioned especially on a livery yard with no other barefoot horses. At times I've wished I was still ignorant to it and could have carried on blindly shoeing. I've despaired, been given all sorts of bad advice, had a trimmer badly lame my horse, have spent hours reading feed labels, websites, books, published papers and BF threads on here while pulling my hair out but to see him trotting out with healthier feet and a spring in his step has been worth it. Even other people have noticed and commented on how he just seems like a happier horse in general.

Good luck with it all.
 
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