My ANNOYINGLY CALM non loader.

Iron Tears said:
Uh unfortunately if I wave a stick we do battle, my temper is almost as bad as his!! If you all want a giggle, I smacked twitty features with the lead rope, behind me, the git kicked forwards & caught me with his fetlock on the backside
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This says it all.

If you have a temper and start waving sticks around, it is inevitable that a horse will refuse to load. Would you go into a small space with someone who was dangerous and threatening, or would you want a bit of space?
 
My old horse could be a horror to load. He wasn't scared he was just stubborn. Things that worked with him:

Trotting him in
Trotting him in giving hunt/lunge whip a good crack behind him
Broom up his bottom
Giving him a slap when he refused first time (then would walk onto the box mildly and meekly)

Weather these will work with your horse is another matter. I had another horse who had appeared to have been fine to load. (Hadn't taken her out for ages, but did a couple of test runs with her, she loaded fine with just me there.) Took her out to a schooling day, and on the way home she refused to go into the trailer. Took nearly an hour to load her, and only when someone offered to come and help me. However, few months later she was diagnosed with KS, so I wondered if the travelling had actually made her uncomfy...
 
AengusOg said:
This says it all.

If you have a temper and start waving sticks around, it is inevitable that a horse will refuse to load. Would you go into a small space with someone who was dangerous and threatening, or would you want a bit of space?
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Some horses DO load if you wave a stick around!:eek::eek::eek:

The fastest loader I have ever seen was a mare in for the stallion. Her owner was a livestock haulier and the horse had definitely been beaten onto a lorry. She was so wild, the owner could not hold her by the head collar and when she had shaken the owner off, she shot into the trailer as if persued by a pack of hungry wolves! But I am NOT advocating that method!

There are no firm rules on loading and each situation has to be analysed and dealt with accordingly. Nor do I believe horses have a natural fear of going into small dark spaces, with or without the owner, as this 1.5 minute video proves. They are generally taught that loading is not something they want to do and, as they are stronger than us, they don't! The skill comes in persuading them that loading is something they want to do and that can be done without trauma and tempers.

[youtube]AfRRCkam0ug[/youtube]
 
Can you do some calm, careful work in the school, with no horsebox involved making the horse walk forwards from a light tap on his side and then stand and repeat. Then run the schooling whip all over his body so he has no fear of it. It is not a punishment and shouldn't be used as such, it is an aid to go forwards and should always be that first and foremost. I promise you.

Don't get angry, stay calm and keep going.

Our instructor was using VERY positive whip aids but with no shouting, yanking, pulling or anything. He already knew what the tap on his side meant, and chose to ignore it, he just needed to learn that the tap means go whenever it is applied. Now we've backed him and he understands leg aids perfectly and is incredibly responsive.

The second you lose your temper with a horse when loading, you've already lost, sorry. Winching in with lunge line I don't rate, having seen horses go over backwards before, its not pretty :(
 
Stencilface said:
The second you lose your temper with a horse when loading, you've already lost, sorry. :(
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So true. Sometimes however it is necessary to aply a certain amount of directed force.but always cooly and calmly. Never even start a battle with a horse if you are not sure of winning.
 
I know its hard when we are trying to offer advice from a distance. Just for my part, we started off with 2 lunge lines, not 1 and now reduced to 1 as its only a reminder. We had 2 lungelines which crossed behind and then the the helpers would gradually increase pressure. Mine likes treats as he never gets them normally ( I am not mean, just don't need to teach a bright youngster to start mugging me). We weren't rushing. I led in as far as he would go, which was to the bottom of the ramp. Then my young horse changed into a mule. Made of stone. Just to help you a little, he was not distressed (resting leg, ears flicking), just didn't have the confidence. I led him up, bribed him and then really slowly, my helpers started to walk behind and cross over, gradually increasing the pressure. This worked for us, but I do need to stress I did not have an agitated or dangerous horse, just a bright one who didn't see why he had to go on. I also had 2 competent helpers who didn't flap. Now my horse is simply questioning me, hence 1 lunge rein, 1 helper who can almost be sloppy about it and he goes up. He needs to know I mean it!, of course, he will load and unload countless times away from home and every time it gets easier. Mine was also a pretty rotten traveller when we started as he was stressing once on the lorry (and we did try different things), so I travelled him very lightly rugged and at the beginning, no boots, but stable bandages on his back legs which he seemed to be able to tolerate. As mine had been travelled from Ireland as a 2 year old, then nothing till 5, I can understand his concern! Another horse who had to load sideways went mule like but in his case, it simply took someone behind him wiggling to make him go up the ramp. Now its a standing joke that his horse just has to see me walk near him and goes straight up. I never touched or shouted at him but clearly, my chest is absolutely terrifying!
 
I would agree ground work is a good place to start, getting the horse walking forward well on the lead rein and not being dragged, teaching them to look where their feet are going can help too. My mare gets "stuck" at the bottom of ramps, and the best thing is to get her to back up so she can see the bottom of the ramp (they can't see it when stood over it!) Then if they do get "stuck" get their feet moving by moving them side to side, or then getting the lunge behind them!!
 
I have had this problem with my wbxTb mare. It started after she had to be rushed off for emergency colic surgery. Quite understandably she refused to load again once she got home.

I tried everything - trotting in, waving whips, rustling bags, brooms, lunge lines in every way possible. It was so frustrating and I ended up losing my temper and I am normally a very very calm person.

At this point I gave up and got a natural horsemanship person out. She didn't do anything magical - she just got the relationship right between me and my mare, and sorted out a few issues with the loading and unloading process.

This got her to a point where she wasn't frightened of travelling any more and was nice and calm once on the lorry. But being a stubborn mare she just decided that she didn't want to go out.

I now use a lunge line clipped to her head collar at the bottom on one side, over her head behind her ears and out through the bottom of the other. This is just enough to get over her stubbornnessand - I even have to use this to get her in from the field as she knows that she is going to go out in the box and plants herself there too!
 
bonny said:
A lunge rein behind the horse will always work if done properly. Just use one, clip one end to the trailer and have someone holding the other end who won't let go, no matter what.....keep the pressure up so that the horse has to go forwards. Sounds exactly what would work for your horse, much better and much more effective than anything else. Do not hit the horse or have anyone helping who is anything other than calm....
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I would love to introduce you to my boy - he laughs in the face of lunge lines, whether it's one or two. And when 17.1hh is standing on his back legs or deciding that he's leaving for the day (and he'll go through chifneys and pressure halters), you realise that lunge lines don't work for every horse. With regards to clipping one end to the trailer, or having someone hold the other end - the lunge line, the clip, or the trailer will break before my horse's attitude.
He has similar reactions to whips, brooms, water, or people around/behind him generally.
He had a bad accident as a yearling in a trailer, involving him getting forced into it then falling and getting injured, so unsurprisingly, he's not a big fan of loading.

Similar to your boy though OP (he's another WB x TB!), he will gladly stand at the bottom of the ramp for hours and hours without boredom. Our record was 3.5 hours in pouring rain.

We've now reached something of an agreement whereby as long as I am incredibly patient, calm and kind - and do not put him under any pressure from behind - and he is willing, then we will get on the lorry within half an hour or so. It's not ideal and I hope it improves, but it's a vast improvement on the downright dangerous situation I had before.
 
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I saw a perfect example of this the other day at a farm ride... a horse, looking very chilled and at ease, refusing to go up the lorry.
So ensued lunge lines, whips, brooms... you name it they used it!
I left to go off round the ride, and got back to see them still battling with the horse but with a set of rather more angry looking people.

The horse had it's pelham bridle on, a head collar, 2 lunge lines round its bottom, someone smacking its hocks with a lunge whip, someone jabbing it with a broom and a circle of people around it to 'stop it getting away'.

As I watched, the thing that became clear was that the horse never got a break, even when it moved forward on the ramp and came close to going in, no one released the pressure and said 'good' before applying the pressure again. I have no idea how long they were there, but I left and the poor thing was still at the bottom of the ramp.
Yes pressurise... but as soon as they give, release... I attempted to suggest this only to be met with sarcasm and rude comments so left them to it.
I've had 2 bad loaders: and if you fight - they win! There has to be give and take.

PS love the video!
 
i know its not quite the same but my youngster who had never loaded before was lifted literally on the box by 4 of us - not nastily - just got on...

2nd time when she NEEDED to load as my other horse was pts and she HAD to go live elsewhere - i loaded her with lunge lines.... she is very stubborn but shifted her butt on with those....mabey worth a shot??

shes not loaded since last year - i really need to practise again but not had the chance....but lunge lines i swear by them and way out the way of kicking distance! :)
 
It's so important to see every horse is so different. I had a stubborn loader and u could see she was laughing at me, a couple of times I lost my rag and she still won. The thing with her was to out stubborn her ( if that makes sense) so I would sit eating my lunch whilst she stood at the bottom of the ramp after several hours she got bord and went on gradually it improved and she would go on quicker but it was always on her terms. But then I had a gelding who sometimes would stand at the bottom of the ramp and one bloody good whack with a stick and he would go on and not do it again for months. I have used lunge lines but seen a few horses go over with them so deffo a good idea to try it on the sand. Bloody horses :)
 
What you need is someone to not only load your horse, but work with you and show you how.
People who say 'don't lose your temper' are right, but it's not until you've had a really stubblorn one that you realise how hard this is.
My youngster is calm, brave and very determined - fantastic qualities except when you are trying to get him to do something he doesn't want to.
Luckily for me, our regular trainer worked with him and me so we could develop a system for loading.
This was to make going in the lorry/trailer the easy option.
The leg tapping does work, and its especially good if you've got to go into a narrow space such as a standard trailer. But you tap the forearm on the front leg and need excellent timing to STOP as soon as they give you the slightest 'try' - this might be taking just one step towards the trailer or up the ramp. Position yourself so they can't get you if they lash out and be sensible - hat, gloves and a useful rope, not something that's 6ft long. Wish I had a video of my trainer doing this with a very unruly traditional cob - he went from being a nightmare to load to being absolutely fine.
The other method that worked with my boy - that I never have to use these days, but is always there in the 'toolbox', is to make not being in the trailer hard work - lunge in small circles close to the trailer - if he wants to rest, he goes up the ramp. The moment he barges or pulls back, return to the lunging. Obviously you need a reasonable surface underfoot, but a hardcore yard or grass field is fine.
I'm just explaining some of the techniques for your info, but you really need to be shown, and to practice with groundwork to get your timing right. Jason Webb is excellent, so is Michael Peace, Richard Maxwell. My trainer is Shane Borland who specialises in western, but every horse he trains goes home a better loader than it arrives!
It's well worth the money/time spent - it means that I can just load up my boy on my own and go anywhere withouth having to worry!
 
Following a scare loading, I watched some monty roberts and richard maxwell videos on-line and mixed a few of their methods to suit my horse and so far seems to be working!

I'm not normally into that kind of thing, but as horse was scared, didn't want to smack it and make matters worse.

Could not believe how quickly and easily it worked! Spent 20 mins in the school one day just teaching horse to go backwards, forwards, left, right with a lunge line and a halter, then did the same thing at the weekend at the bottom of the ramp for about 20 seconds, then horse just went on and has continued to do so! Has once said no since and just moved it backwards, side to side, bacwards again then walked up the ramp and it followed!

I honestly have no idea how/why it works, but it does!!
 
Interesting how many people profess to be 'not into' or otherwise put off established methods of loading with proven track records.;) Is that because of who is suggesting/promoting them?

Groundwork works. In the same way that flat work works. It's about preparing the horse, getting a common language in place, and insisting on rules of behaviour and reaction that can then be transfered to any situation.

One of the smartest things I've heard re loading is if you have a loading problem, you actually have a leading problem. Otherwise the horse would go where you led it.:)
 
TS - is this really the issue.

My stubborn git horse might not agree! He would follow me around like a large dog in the school, or if I had him on the end of a lead rope.

One day out on a hack, a tree had fallen down over a farm track. There was no way around it, as this would have meant tramping through a ready to harvest wheat field! The tree was a willow, and although there were lots of "hanging down" bits with the leaves etc on, I could see that there was a way though the tree if I got off, and Henry put his head down a bit. (I was on my own out for a hack.)

So I got off Henry, and lead him straight through the tree, He couldnt have figured out that there was a way though, yet he followed me through and he wasnt concerned at all. In fact he stopped in the middle of the leaves for a quick snack.

He was still a stubborn sod to load!
 
Obviously it's a simplistic comment but the fact still remains it's true at the core.

Re the willow as you say, he wasn't concerned so had no reason to resist you, even if you felt he should have. Also, horses force themselves through brush etc all the time and, as you also point out, the willow held so little fear for him it was classed as a snack.

Training isn't for the 90% of the times when the horse is more or less okay with what is being asked - after all, if horses were intrinsically resistant we'd all be dead - it's for the 10% of the time they're highly motivated NOT to do what we ask. That's part of the reason it's so important in training to be methodical and not ask too much, too often. Compliance has to be such a habit that it kicks in even under high stress. This is a component of trust and confidence, too.
 
Sorry guys but, he's not bothered by a stick, just gets nasty with it, he follows me almost everywhere because he's a beaky git, no fear of anything, to the point that when we cut the hay he tries to put his nose on the mower that runs at 5000 rpm. It's a battle of wills he won't do it because he can't be bothered. Like I said he was loading brilliantly last season, he loves going out & being nosey, showing off etc. My mate & I have about 60 years experience between us, so know most tricks & we're both stumped. Mine does nothing that is natural behaviour, just pure stubbornness. He thinks way too much, what works today won't work tomorrow, you can see him planning the latest scam. The last time he went in it took 5 mins, then he wouldn't load to come home. You tell me what's going through his head, he travelled with his buddy who's 18hh & there is plenty of room on the back for him! Last time he went in the trailer he wrecked the ramp & he was almost in literally 1/2 a step so my other half shut the ramp up before he decided to come out. Love him dearly but he does get my goat sometimes, he's 11 by the way.
 
TarrSteps said:
Obviously it's a simplistic comment but the fact still remains it's true at the core.

Re the willow as you say, he wasn't concerned so had no reason to resist you, even if you felt he should have. Also, horses force themselves through brush etc all the time and, as you also point out, the willow held so little fear for him it was classed as a snack.
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I'd guarentee that if most people had tried to lead him through that willow he wouldn't have gone through.
 
But if you can lead him ANYWHERE, including places HE ACTIVELY DOES NOT WANT TO GO then why can't you lead him on to the lorry when he doesn't want to go on? ;) ;) ;)

Don't get me wrong, I understand the problem exactly - teaching horses to load is a significant part of my income stream - but the point of the original comment is as soon as there is an exception, it proves the rule. I'd say there are very few horses that are trained to lead to that extreme level and most do not need to be, unless there is a problem. .

To the OP, have you tried nh-ish (i hate the term 'natural horsemanship') style methods or clicker training? You say you've tried 'everything' and you sound educated and experienced. If all the 'expected' methods have failed, perhaps it's time to try something you don't expect to work?
 
TarrSteps said:
But if you can lead him ANYWHERE, including places HE ACTIVELY DOES NOT WANT TO GO then why can't you lead him on to the lorry when he doesn't want to go on? ;) ;) ;)
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Unfortunately I haven't lead him anywhere for over two years... he's dead! Why wouldn't he go in my trailer... he was a stubborn crafty old devil! Didn't really matter, he went on when he got told off. I know he played me up to see what he could get away with, but overall, he was happier with me riding him than anyone else!
 
I have had numerous horses that wouldn't load. I've always used lunge lines but have NEVER applied pressure, the lunge lines just stop the horse from reversing too far. The horse always gets a treat when they go on.

It's never failed and all horses run up the ramp now. Oh, OK, maybe not The Mare, she'll stand at the bottom of the ramp but as soon as she sees the lung line she'll walk up.

Patience is a virtue, although it's hard!
 
havent read any of the replies (sorry) but I had a loan pony who would not load - it was from horseworld and when they came to load it they spent near enough 1.5 hours but their method worked .... they asked it to go forward - it wouldnt - so they backed it up, using almost chicken impressions (flappy elbows) to make it move backwards - they were walking backwards with it on end of lead rope. Then asked for forward again - if no response - more backing up .... in the end I think it got bored of all the going backwards and decided the best option was to go forwards !!!!!!!
 
meesha said:
havent read any of the replies (sorry) but I had a loan pony who would not load - it was from horseworld and when they came to load it they spent near enough 1.5 hours but their method worked .... they asked it to go forward - it wouldnt - so they backed it up, using almost chicken impressions (flappy elbows) to make it move backwards - they were walking backwards with it on end of lead rope. Then asked for forward again - if no response - more backing up .... in the end I think it got bored of all the going backwards and decided the best option was to go forwards !!!!!!!
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And did it work the next time?
 
At the end of the day horses, like people, are all different. What motivates one to go in, won't do anything for another. I have owned 3 horses over 20+ years, and they have all been totally different when it comes to loading.

My first pony, I was lucky, he would quite happily run up by himself. My second horse needed a lunge line, through his headcollar and round his bum. He would throw himself backwards at the sight of a box, I'd tug the line and he'd shoot in. Was always easier in a trailer. He always loaded fine coming home. My current youngster when we bought him at 14 months took us an hour and a half to load him, he wasn't scared, just stubborn. He locked his legs and closed his eyes at one point. The more we ignored him, the closer he moved to the box until eventually he got bored and went in. The last two times I've loaded him he's walked in without a fuss as he knows it will happen eventually no matter how long he fusses. My friend's horse is another stubborn one, but all a helper has to do is stand next to him with a lunge whip in hand (without threatening) and he knows he has to go in. My point is different things work for different horses, there is no one size fits all answer.

He has to know that you will make him go in, even if it takes all day, regardless of how you do it. Personally I'm a great fan of making it harder work not to go in (someone else mentioned about lunging and only letting them rest on the ramp).

Groundwork is the best way, but sometimes you just have to out-stubborn them.
 
Well, me and my sister also have nearly 60 years experience between us, and I'd never seen anyone load they way my instructor did til last year.

I think the fact you admit you lose your rag with him says it all, as soon as he knows that might be on the cards he probably starts behaving like a prat pre-emptively as he'll pick up vibes from you. You haven't said you've gone back to basics with groundwork with him, just that he's reactive to the whip, probably because you lose your rag with it, see a vicious circle here? :o
 
Who wouldn't lose their rag if they'd been squashed & nearly booted in the head, he maybe 17hh but he's almost as quick as my Welsh A but a lot more deadly. I don't usually hit him more than a tap to move him on when riding. Usually my growling and telling him to behave works, he knows when he's in trouble. He is very good at looking sweet & innocent then you get on & BOOM, we bounce & prat about & nothing has been asked yet other than to go out for a hack. Both of my horses will not stand for a beating of any type, but I'm not a wishy washy there there needy please be good type either. He was taught manners etc from day 1, and his mum is an angel, he's just a demon looking for the 666 tattooed on him somewhere!!
 
Sorry don't know if it worked the next time as I only had pony on loan and it went back to Horseworld as needed a job as ready to be backed. Must admit to having to hand my current horse over to someone else to load as I have become frustrated after an hour of trying, horse loaded in five mins for relaxed friend ! Now loads fine but I know how frustrating it can be.
 
we have had a couple of stubborn loaders in our time, the first one was very much like yours, if you tried to force him in, all you got were legs and him going up. the following method worked a treat, took an hour the first time, one lunge rope attached to the head collar, the other looped through a ring in the lorry with me holding the other end, and we waited, i had pressure on the head collar and just kept continual pressure. no shouting ranting nothing etc, every time he moved forward i took up the slack. eventually all feet on the ramp and eventually all pony in the lorry. next time 20min to reel in and the third time i was at a show, i had got the lunge line out, next thing there was a sigh from the pony and he walked straight up, and loaded himself until the day he died.

the other time was the same principle but i used a chiffney, someone was leaving the yard and had tried to load for 3hrs, i asked if they minded if i used my chiffney, and i had him in 5min, just kept the pressure on but did not fight.

i would only use these techniques if you are working with a mule personality, if they are really scared then you need to approach this in a different way.
 
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