My body position/balance/weight distribution for shoulder in, help please?

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BeckyD

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Hi All

I have always struggled with shoulder in (until recently I can honestly say that I had only ever ridden one shoulder in that I was pleased with, which is very poor when you consider how many times I have tried over many years!!).

I have read lots of conflicting advice as to how I should be positioned, and in fact different instructors over the years have also told me different things.

What is the current view (if there is one) on how I should be positioned? Please can someone describe to me in intricate detail how I should "be"?

At the moment I am reverting to putting my body in line with the intended angle of shoulders, whilst looking ahead down my line of travel. This seems to be working well but I have been told this was wrong in the past.

Thank you.
Becky
 
I find half pass difficult- e.g. distributing my weight ever side of my horse, I had a tendancy to sit more to the right which is why I can never master half pass correctly. When asking for a half pass on the left, my shoulders and weight are still sitting to the right blocking my horse from half passing freely and correctly. It wasnt until I went to Portugal and had lessons with Filipa Valenca, she pointed it out. It all made sense. I still struggle a little on the left side as it feels really un-natural to bring my left shoulder back (automatically spreading my weight evenly) but im getting better :D


"At the moment I am reverting to putting my body in line with the intended angle of shoulders, whilst looking ahead down my line of travel. This seems to be working well but I have been told this was wrong in the past"-

This is correct, but not totally, this sets up the movement for shoulder in. It sounds as if your blocking your horse from the shoulder in movement as your weight isnt correct either side. When performing shoulder in on the left- your left leg should be slightly open (allowing the side ways movement) and your right leg on the girth, encouraging the sideways movement yet persuing a forward movement. Your weight should be slightly on the right. When looking ahead at your line of travel your weight should automatically travel to the opposite side. But your shoulders in line with your horse. Its a simple mistake-one as I mentioned with half pass. Its just a case of remembering it when your setting up the shoulder in. You have to set up your shoulder in just like you would with a leg yield, but the leg yield your weight falls to the way your going, but shoulder in your weight falls to the opposite. Hope that makes sense :)
 
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Great - thank you. I think I have understood your message to say that I am doing the correct thing to set up, but that I must then slightly shift weight away from direction of travel to allow the movement to flow? At the moment I have only been doing a few strides, then circling, so that is probably why I haven't noticed that I've been blocking him - ooops! :p Thank you again - I shall work on that next time!

Sometimes I think riding is a bit like rubbing your tummy and patting your head at the same time. The turn on the forehand we worked on in my lesson last week took major co-ordination effort on my part - I even had to sleep on it with much going over how I must do it, but the next day it seemed more natural and working on that has really improved leg yield and shoulder in/fore. I think something "clicked" for both of us.
 
BeckyD said:
Great - thank you. I think I have understood your message to say that I am doing the correct thing to set up, but that I must then slightly shift weight away from direction of travel to allow the movement to flow? .
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Yep thats exactly right, sorry, I probably over complicated it- was harder to write what I meant then saying it face to face (and using actions lol)

Lateral work is hard to learn at first, there's so much to think about i.e your legs, hands seat- it just confuses the brain. When I started to learn half pass I just could not get it for love nor money- complete no brainer. But the more you practise, the more it just clicks and you end up placing things naturally :)
 
hi i also had this problem and was constantly trying to over ride my mare ad ended up blocking her, my trainer made me do the whole movement whilst stood in my stirrups so my weight distribution was even (so no blocking) whist doing the same as what you are doing (moving my upper body and hips and hands on the the intended angle). this really worked for me as it made the pressure from the leg aid to be constant an in the same place and kept us both balanced through the movement. :)
 
Hi Becky

I assume that everything is now back in track with Bill?

I had to think about what I do for shoulder in. I dont actually move my body a lot - basically I ride shoulder in like I would ride a large circle but it depends on what the horse is doing.

When starting shoulder in with a new/green horse I normally ask for it on a large circle first. Your body is already in the correct position, so all you need to do is ask the horse to bring the outside shoulder in with the outside rein and inside leg on - I dont consciously do anything else unless I am trying to stop the horse from falling in/swinging quarters etc.

On the long side I suppose I think "riding a circle" but using the inside leg to push to horse forward in a straight line and controlling the outside shoulder more, as there is a tendancy for the horse to fall in and come off the track. Thinking about it, I think I am more concentrated on using the outside rein to bring the shoulder across - where I put my weight is more determined by what the horse is doing but generally it will be on the inside leg, as you do on a circle. It is definitely not a conscious shift of the weight or shoulders in the direction you want to travel like in leg yield.
 
^^^^^ this is the thing, it depends on what the horse is doing!
as a general rule of thumb, in most work incl lateral work, i try to have my shoulders pointing where i want the horse's to, and my hips going in the direction where i want the horse's back end to go... (but probably more forward than sideways, compared to my shoulders) and this usually sorts out weight distribution too. most horses will try to step across under your more weighted seat bone, so you can use that to your advantage in lateral work... so, i'd have my outside seatbone a tiny bit more weighted IF the horse wasn't going down the track enough. but it depends! sorry, not exactly a straightforward answer.
i think this explains why you're getting contradictory answers from different trainers, it depends on what the horse is doing at the time!
 
CBAnglo said:
Hi Becky

I assume that everything is now back in track with Bill?
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Hi Mary! <Waves> I've been meaning to ask you how your riding trip went? You must have learnt so much! Bill's recovery has been pretty smooth <touch wood> and we're now cantering and I am to speak to the vet again next week as he is hoping to tell me I can crack on with jumping etc. Hurrah! In my positive frame of mind I have booked on a XC clinic with Lucinda Green, to hopefully teach me a lot. Would love to hear about your two!

CBAnglo said:
I had to think about what I do for shoulder in. I dont actually move my body a lot - basically I ride shoulder in like I would ride a large circle but it depends on what the horse is doing.

When starting shoulder in with a new/green horse I normally ask for it on a large circle first. Your body is already in the correct position, so all you need to do is ask the horse to bring the outside shoulder in with the outside rein and inside leg on - I dont consciously do anything else unless I am trying to stop the horse from falling in/swinging quarters etc.

On the long side I suppose I think "riding a circle" but using the inside leg to push to horse forward in a straight line and controlling the outside shoulder more, as there is a tendancy for the horse to fall in and come off the track. Thinking about it, I think I am more concentrated on using the outside rein to bring the shoulder across - where I put my weight is more determined by what the horse is doing but generally it will be on the inside leg, as you do on a circle. It is definitely not a conscious shift of the weight or shoulders in the direction you want to travel like in leg yield.
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I think that's where I've been struggling though - as what I was doing is what you're describing and on a circle all was well. When I started to ask along the long side though, I couldn't figure out how to replicate what I was getting and I was confusing Bill as he couldn't understand why we couldn't just carry on round the circle, so he just went in a straight line up the long side. It is only by turning my hips as well, that I seem to have connected with him enough to make him understand that yes, he's right, we are supposed to still be on a bend, and yes, that left (or right) leg *is* meaning sideways. Before I tried that, I had my hips going in same direction as his hips, and my shoulders same as his shoulders. But for some reason it wasn't working! Perhaps now we've gotten the hang of it this way, we can progress to do it the more "correct" way.

Ooo the excitement of learning new things! (admittedly people have been trying to teach me for 15+ years!!!). :D
 
kerilli said:
^^^^^ this is the thing, it depends on what the horse is doing!
as a general rule of thumb, in most work incl lateral work, i try to have my shoulders pointing where i want the horse's to, and my hips going in the direction where i want the horse's back end to go... (but probably more forward than sideways, compared to my shoulders) and this usually sorts out weight distribution too. most horses will try to step across under your more weighted seat bone, so you can use that to your advantage in lateral work... so, i'd have my outside seatbone a tiny bit more weighted IF the horse wasn't going down the track enough. but it depends! sorry, not exactly a straightforward answer.
i think this explains why you're getting contradictory answers from different trainers, it depends on what the horse is doing at the time!
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Horse (Bill) was doing a remarkable impression of a nice straight plank proceeding smoothly up the long side (I couldn't have done a nice straight line if I'd tried) :D

Yes I think you're right about the conflicting instructions. I think my brain just has become a bit fried by my desire to do it well and yet total inability. Oddly I "mastered" (and I mean that in the very loosest possible sense of the word) travers/half pass quickly, despite my inability to do shoulder in!!!
 
hello beckyd

please may i give my number one tips?

1.get your positioning right in walk first & don't even attempt trotting before it feels right! this may take more than one session!

2. once you have ensured you are in the correct position, try to relax! and remind yourself to relax again frequently!

good luck, have fun!
 
cathy rd said:
hello beckyd

please may i give my number one tips?

1.get your positioning right in walk first & don't even attempt trotting before it feels right! this may take more than one session!

2. once you have ensured you are in the correct position, try to relax! and remind yourself to relax again frequently!

good luck, have fun!
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Hmm you're very right about 1 - it was only once I got it in walk that I dared try it in trot - and it worked straight away, thereby proving that my waiting until I was happy with walk (even if it did take many months!) was the right thing to do. I will work on the walk again now until I can be sure (as best as I can) that I am not blocking him by putting my weight in the wrong place. Once that is correct, (and I am relaxed :D) then I will try trot again.

Thank you all - very useful input.
 
Agree with doing it in walk first to get the feel as then it doesn't go wrong so quickly :rolleyes: and you have more feeling of controlling each step. I would use a 10m circle in the corner to get the positioning and then ride that feel up the long side. The acid test is whether you could, at any point, easily ride another 10m circle as if you can't you've probably lost the positioning.

I always find that on one rein the horse will readily give you head and neck bend but not necessarily uniform bend through the whole body, and on the other rein it is more uniform bend but less of it, so how you react and make corrections may differ on either rein.

How's that? Clear as mud? ;)

Another thing I've just thought of is that on the rein where you struggle most with the bend it's easy to turn your body and position too much, thereby making your horse push your outside aids away from his body and reducing your effectiveness. In those situations it's better to point your inside shoulder (and therefore position) towards the outside ear until you get control of the outside of the body and can then use your inside aids more efficiently. Now I've really confused you, haven't I? :o
 
Baydale said:
Agree with doing it in walk first to get the feel as then it doesn't go wrong so quickly :rolleyes: and you have more feeling of controlling each step. I would use a 10m circle in the corner to get the positioning and then ride that feel up the long side. The acid test is whether you could, at any point, easily ride another 10m circle as if you can't you've probably lost the positioning.
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That's good as that's what I've been doing - walk only and I do 10m circles after a few nice strides, so on a long side I'll often do 4 10m circles. I tried trot for the first time ever on Sunday as I was so pleased that walk had finally improved (bear in mind I've been practising this since about May last year!! - bar the couple of months off/rehab etc) and was surprised how well it went - but that was only on the left rein. I didn't try trot on the right rain as the walk shoulder in on that rein I'm not yet happy with...which leads on to...

Baydale said:
I always find that on one rein the horse will readily give you head and neck bend but not necessarily uniform bend through the whole body, and on the other rein it is more uniform bend but less of it, so how you react and make corrections may differ on either rein.
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Hmmm this is exactly my problem. He never wants to step through as much with right hind (I am praying this doesn't turn in to a hock problem!) so I get head and neck bend but not body bend on the right rein. I try to solve this by keeping head and neck as straight as possible (i.e. I try to minimise bend there), and asking for the merest hint of body angle whilst really trying to wrap him around my inside leg. I figure that I can get the head/neck bend again once he's agreed to use his body more. That might be the wrong way to tackle it but the only alternative we've tried is to ask for a lot of head and neck bend and hope the shoulders will follow, doesn't make the shoulders follow as he just jacknifes at the base of neck! He can do a nice line in walking perfectly straight whilst looking behind him :rolleyes:

Baydale said:
How's that? Clear as mud? ;)
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That's OK - Bill likes mud :D

Baydale said:
Another thing I've just thought of is that on the rein where you struggle most with the bend it's easy to turn your body and position too much, thereby making your horse push your outside aids away from his body and reducing your effectiveness. In those situations it's better to point your inside shoulder (and therefore position) towards the outside ear until you get control of the outside of the body and can then use your inside aids more efficiently. Now I've really confused you, haven't I? :o
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Yes :p (I will have to give it deeper thought!)

Thank you :D (not for the confusion - for the help!)
 
There you go, you were doing the right thing anyway.:D If you start with a lesser angle but absolute uniform bend, more bend will then come as he becomes more supple and off/around your inside leg.

Re the inside shoulder to outside ear: ride a big circle on that rein and see how much your brain is willing you to pull on the inside rein to turn and your whole body wants to turn to the inside too; the jack-knifing then pushes your outside leg off the horse, normally simultaneously as you losing the outside rein contact and having too much in the inside rein contact. *patting head, rubbing tummy* :p
 
Baydale said:
There you go, you were doing the right thing anyway.:D If you start with a lesser angle but absolute uniform bend, more bend will then come as he becomes more supple and off/around your inside leg.

Re the inside shoulder to outside ear: ride a big circle on that rein and see how much your brain is willing you to pull on the inside rein to turn and your whole body wants to turn to the inside too; the jack-knifing then pushes your outside leg off the horse, normally simultaneously as you losing the outside rein contact and having too much in the inside rein contact. *patting head, rubbing tummy* :p
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Am very glad to hear you say that, as it's really been trial and error that's gotten to that point!

Thank you for the explanation of the inside shoulder to outside ear, and that's exactly my failing, although I generally always ride with my right shoulder slightly forwards and I think it's slightly higher too (obviously I do try to stop this but I don't believe I'm very successful). I really struggle to stop myself drawing the right rein back/out when doing complicated things (which covers most things as far as I am concerned :rolleyes:). It really showed up in my flat lesson last week as we worked on turn on the forehand - when pushing him round to the left, using my right leg to push into left hand, I couldn't stop myself using right hand too, as he didn't want to take a left contact and so dived to left in front and behind. I kept grabbing the right rein to stop that even though I knew I shouldn't. I guess if I'm doing it then, I'm no doubt doing it at other times too. Will *try* to be more self aware.

Hopefully tomorrow will help with that!
 
zoeloveshorses92 said:
hi i also had this problem and was constantly trying to over ride my mare ad ended up blocking her, my trainer made me do the whole movement whilst stood in my stirrups so my weight distribution was even (so no blocking) whist doing the same as what you are doing (moving my upper body and hips and hands on the the intended angle). this really worked for me as it made the pressure from the leg aid to be constant an in the same place and kept us both balanced through the movement. :)
Click to expand...

Thank you - I really like that suggestion. Will definitely try it!
 
Have you tried turning your rein over on your dominant hand to stop you using it so strongly? So the excess rein is underneath? It stops it being as affective and therefore softer.

Can't think of a way to explain but it definitely helps me as my left hand is more dominant :rolleyes:

The rein runs from the bit under your thumb and through your hand.

Sorry if I've confused you more! :confused::eek::rolleyes:
 
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