My dog bit my horse.

[roz84]

What do you do when it turns out that your dog absolutely cannot be trusted around livestock? I've done everything right and she knows right from wrong, but last night had the traumatic experience of my dog literally biting my horses hind fetlocks whilst she barked and generally tried so wind her up - thankfully my horse is a SAINT FROM HEAVEN and did not react at all but obviously the dog is putting herself in a very vulnerable situation indeed. When she goes like that it's like she's deaf, I cannot get hold of her as she runs away then comes back for more. Her shade instinct seems to be overwhelming as no amount of training seems to make a jot of difference once she's locked onto something.

Obviously a large percentage of my time is spent at the yard which is where my dogs get the majority of their exercise, I haven't really got the time to do long walks from home.

 

[rara007]

We don’t have dogs on the yard (stabled at home so our own choice!). We often have young/sharp/a bit anti dog ponies so it’s just not worth the risk. The grooms collie stays in a stable when she comes, my sister who lives actually on the yard her collie and schnauzer have an enclosed run next to the arena and walk through the yard on lead. The only other doggy visitor to the yard is my spaniel who’s always on lead and only ever either tending chickens or passing through. We all train in the arena but (try!) not to have runaways, and all are actually good with livestock- they all happily walk through the field with the less boisterous horses. Is there anything else you could tag your dogs exercise into? Mine quite often (twice a week) only gets 15min in the morning and that’s enough to keep him out of trouble until the evening. Another 2 mornings a week we either train (him) for 20-30min or run 4K. He’s a young working bred spaniel so no plod but a good off switch! 2 nights a week he has classes but it’s pretty rare we’ll head off for an hours walk.

 

[Sandstone1]

The simple answer is dont let your dog near your horse or other livestock off lead.
It sounds as if shes not going to be safe around livestock which means its your responsibility not to allow her near it.
Both for her sake and your horses sake. Some dogs just cant be trusted around livestock.
You could be in trouble if she does this to other animals.

 

[roz84]

Sandstone1, I am coming to that conclusion too sadly which means that in all honesty this dog is going to be incompatible with our life as it involves being around so much livestock, obviously I can't keep her shut up either at home or at a stable on the yard all the time as it isn't fair.

 

[be positive]

Obviously a large percentage of my time is spent at the yard which is where my dogs get the majority of their exercise, I haven't really got the time to do long walks from home.
Read more at https://forums-secure.horseandhound...61960-My-dog-bit-my-horse#BspE1lE3xsu2MovZ.99

That is your main problem, she is not getting your full attention while you are doing your jobs so is "amusing" herself in whatever way she sees fit, I don't think it is insurmountable but you do need to spend time with her on more of a one to one basis and keep her on a lead/ tied up/ shut in while at the yard, my preference would probably be tied to somewhere suitable so she can move about, watch quietly and get used to the horses without being at risk, you will have to exercise her somewhere else, if you are lucky and with some extra training she will get better and can gradually be allowed loose on the yard.

 

[CorvusCorax]

"When she goes like that it's like she's deaf, I cannot get hold of her as she runs away then comes back for more. Her shade instinct seems to be overwhelming as no amount of training seems to make a jot of difference once she's locked onto something."

If she's done it more than once and you have not come down upon her like the Hand of God the first time, then it's been a self rewarding exercise and no amount of training, if you don't really know what you're doing, is going to combat those first experiences. Her drive to chase and bite prey will likely come back

With the best will in the world, yards are yards, they're a safe place for horses not a handy dog exercise zone while you're busy doing other things. If you truly don't have time to exercise or engage your dogs then you should be looking to prioritise one or the other.

 

[Sandstone1]

my dogs come to the yard but are not allowed near the horses. when horses are in stables they run loose but they are never allowed in field with them. its to dangerous.

 

[Clodagh]

Dogs need walks I'm afraid, not just to self entertain. If you take her for a good walk before doing the horses and then tie her up I expect, with supervision, she would be fine. TBH if you don't walk you shouldn't have a dog.

 

[meleeka]

my dogs come to the yard but are not allowed near the horses. when horses are in stables they run loose but they are never allowed in field with them. its to dangerous.

Same here. My dog stays on a long line away from the horses while I’m doing them. Slightly easier as she’s a JRT and will happily entertain herself looking for mice while I’m busy.

 

[roz84]

Ok, I will gracefully accept the criticism here and am thankful for the advice which i will put into practice. I suppose from my point of view my older dog has always accompanied me to the yard and she has been a dream- respectful of the horses, does as she's told - it hadn't even occurred to me because of this that keeping dogs so separate was a thing. To be fair also, every yard I have ever been on has had loose dogs and they have always been well behaved. When we're actually on the yard also my dog is perfectly happy mooching about, building up her collection of sticks etc and never looks bored to me, these incidents have happened when turning out basically.

She has been reprimanded hand of God style for behaving like this, but what she does now is make sure that you cannot grab her while she continues the behaviour. Gosh reading that back makes me realise just how awful the situation is!! I think we either need to go totally back to basics or never take her there again!

 

[CorvusCorax]

After the event is too late and that's why she's now avoiding you and the relationship is potentially damaged...she gets off on bothering the horse, it satifies her instincts and that's worth more to her than anything you might do to her afterwards, it's worth the risk for her. She should always be on a line if you know this is likely to happen. With a dog like that she should be thinking 'what horse...is there a horse there...nope...no horse' rather than trying to outwit you and get to the horse first. And know that ignoring the horse is in her best interests.
This will be a repair job. Have you ever tried to channel her prey drive into some other activity? What breed is she?

To be honest I've been on yards where having dogs is just a pain and a liability which is why my views are strong on the issue.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

It is difficult when you have to completely rethink your normal habits, whatever they are.

Our horses live at home and our dogs and horses have to share the yard but the dogs are only allowed onto the yard when the horses are either in the field, or inside the stables. Horses and dogs don't mix imo. It is just to risky.

I would say you need to walk the dog before you go to the yard and if you take her along, make sure that she can't get anywhere near the horses. Can you put her in a stable/your car while you turn out?

 

[roz84]

Hi pearlsasinger, yes I could I guess. It might just be easier to not take her, which will mean roping family into a strict walking rota - I am unable to do a long walk every day myself and there are other able bodied adults in the house!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Hi pearlsasinger, yes I could I guess. It might just be easier to not take her, which will mean roping family into a strict walking rota - I am unable to do a long walk every day myself and there are other able bodied adults in the house!

That sounds like a problem solved!

 

[roz84]

And to reply to CorusCorvax just to say thanks for the insight there - at the end of the day I'm not a dog expert (any more than I'm a horse expert - ha!) I'll do a bit of research into dog behaviour and maybe take her to some more training sessions locally

 

[Shady]

I hope this doesn't sound stupid but have you thought of muzzling her?. My friends young dog was a horror around her horses but once the ability to bite was removed he stopped bothering them so much and after getting a kick from one he kept away altogether

 

[CorvusCorax]

And to reply to CorusCorvax just to say thanks for the insight there - at the end of the day I'm not a dog expert (any more than I'm a horse expert - ha!) I'll do a bit of research into dog behaviour and maybe take her to some more training sessions locally

Good plan. The most important thing to remember is that dogs only do what's in their own best interests/what they feel improves their own position.

 

[Fellewell]

Did your horse have a problem with mud fever/mites on another thread? Does she stamp a lot? This could be a trigger for the dog, unless she's chewing other people's horses too. Hope you get that sorted.
As for the dog, obviously exercise/stimulation is paramount. Also teach a "leave" command at home or out and reinforce it, every single time.

 

[NiceNeverNaughty]

out of interest, what breed is she?

we have always had collies, we have 4 at the moment and live on a small farm/croft with 17 ponies and sheep. My dogs are very well trained and livestock proof. One of my collies works sheep and I ran training classes for years.

I know for many many horse owners, it kills 2 birds with one stone to have their dog pottering about and exercising itself when they ‘do’ the horse/s. However I have never done this as I have always valued both my horses and my dogs far too much. My dogs are not allowed in the field with me along side the horses, they lie down and wait at the gates. They are not allowed to potter about the yard while I have horses tied up or am moving horses. I walk my dogs separately and I just value and love them far too much to risk anything happening. I would put good money on none of them even daring to do what yours did but it takes a split second for an accident to happen and dog to be trodden on, kicked or trampled.

It’s a shift in mentality to have your dogs and horses as separate things but it’s a good move imho

 

[blackcob]

It’s a shift in mentality to have your dogs and horses as separate things but it’s a good move imho

Couldn't agree more with this. It would be really convenient to have mine potter about while I do the horses, and despite having an impressive prey drive in all other circumstances they are actually really solid with them, but the pony will actively seek them out in order to bully them and I haven't got eyes in the back of my head. Big dogs stay in the car, little dogs are left in a stay by the gate, horses come in to eat and we all swap over so everyone gets a turn in the paddock. Takes a bit longer but everyone stays safe.

 

[roz84]

Did your horse have a problem with mud fever/mites on another thread? Does she stamp a lot? This could be a trigger for the dog, unless she's chewing other people's horses too. Hope you get that sorted.
As for the dog, obviously exercise/stimulation is paramount. Also teach a "leave" command at home or out and reinforce it, every single time.

Yes she did have mites but was never particularly stampy and they are resolved now. Dog does also know the "leave" command but conveniently forgets it when she decides to snap at heels. She hasn't been the easiest of dogs to have from the beginning really and hasn't proven herself easy to train.

 

[Sandstone1]

I hope this doesn't sound stupid but have you thought of muzzling her?. My friends young dog was a horror around her horses but once the ability to bite was removed he stopped bothering them so much and after getting a kick from one he kept away altogether

its not stopping the risk of the dog getting kicked in the head and killed though.

 

[oldie48]

My horses are at home, the stables are across an enclosed courtyard and accessed by a back door from the house. I keep dogs and horses completely separate and even when the horses are out, dogs are not welcome in the stable area nor are they allowed off lead anywhere near the horses when they are out. Many years ago when I was away at a conference, one of the BTs was being walked off lead on a track behind the field the horses were turned out in. He was, at that time, quite a young dog and when the horses suddenly spooked and charged across the field, he managed to find a tiny gap to squeeze through and joined in the fun. He had 6 teeth knocked out by one of the horses who kicked out, he was so lucky not to have been killed. Dogs and horses just don't mix and we learned the hard way to be very careful. A friend's dog nearly died when she was worming one of her horses. Her dog was loose and the horse spat some wormer out and the dog licked it up, there's lots of reasons why we should keep them separate.

 

[Fellewell]

Yes she did have mites but was never particularly stampy and they are resolved now. Dog does also know the "leave" command but conveniently forgets it when she decides to snap at heels. She hasn't been the easiest of dogs to have from the beginning really and hasn't proven herself easy to train.

I like bitches because in general they tend to be a little more reactive and demand more from you. I have always used check chains, in a situation like this they work but they're not choke chains. In fact if it's got to the point where the dog is choking the handler's gone way past the point of the collar having any training value. It's all about timing, pressure and release.

I think you need to reinforce the command when the dog has your full attention and while she's on a lead. Watch her and be ready to remind her. I know it takes a lot of time and can be frustrating but you liked something about her to start with so it might be worth it

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I’d say walk the dog elsewhere. The one and only time I went to catch in with the dog, 20 geldings surrounded us and I nearly had a heart attack. It’s not fair on horses or dogs.

When a mate’s jrt was booted across the yard by her daughter’s pony, it learnt never to bother the horses again, but I don’t think it’s worth the risk.

Many yards don’t allow livery’s dogs so your yo is likely to tell you if he/she hears about this.

 

[MissTyc]

my dogs come to the yard but are not allowed near the horses. when horses are in stables they run loose but they are never allowed in field with them. its to dangerous.

Same with my terrier. He's 14 months now and only just starting to come to the yard more regularly, always at quiet times. He is now allowed on the yard with my one supersaint pony, but even then it's about working with 99% of my attention on the dog not the horse. Dog is just not reliable enough. YET, I hope. He is "showing promise" and it's taken a long time to get there as he instinctively is very afraid of horses and also has no "back button" so absolutely would run forwards to nip or bark if he thought there was a hope in hell of getting away with that. Long lines, tasty treats, masses of training and control work and we're getting there. Some dogs find it easy; some don't./

 

[Clodagh]

Hi pearlsasinger, yes I could I guess. It might just be easier to not take her, which will mean roping family into a strict walking rota - I am unable to do a long walk every day myself and there are other able bodied adults in the house!

Sounds like a plan. As PAS says is is a pain when the easy way no longer works. We have been lucky with our dogs and I have always had them out around the horses. My rescue lurcher used to chase them but thankfully learned it was a no no pretty quickly. She then got so good she could come for a hack with me, now that was all exercise problems solved.

 

[PapaverFollis]

When I've been on yards that the dogs could go to and not had much time I've taken them on leads, tied them somewhere safe but where they could see the yard activity and taken them for a quick spin (or a longer walk or training session if I had time) in an empty field at the yard or somewhere on the way too and from they yard. They've still been tired at the end of the day even if the quick spin was very quick... watching all the activity at the yard tired their little brains out.

When they were younger I did let them run around but the sprollie got his paw stood on by a horse (unhurt amazingly although he did poo himself in terror and has not been 100% happy with horses since!) and the spaniel started stealing people's sponges and carrots... and I realised I was being an asshat letting him run around.... so I gave up on that idea.

Dogs and horses are just best kept a bit more separate... I find "yard dogs" a bit of a PITA these days anyway, hate having to watch for dog poo... on one yard I was on they all used to poo in the hay barn! That was gross!

OP I would try tying your dog up in a safe place with some chew toys to keep her entertained and just give her a little walk, some fun training or game of tug or fetch at every chance you get through the day and see how she copes. Tug games are a great, quick way to get them tired. Or find it games! Give her her breakfast in a puzzle toy at the yard too. Mine have those pyramid things, takes them 20 minutes to bash the kibble out of them and they sleep flat out afterwards!

 

[kathantoinette]

Never have my dogs out with my horses, ever. Dogs go for 2/3 walks per day, supervised, and then left in an enclosed yard the rest of the time.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

My collie does not get let out the car while i am dealing with horses otherwise he will try to help herd the up for me. He and the cocker (who sits a nice distance away when on yard with horses) stay in the car until its time for our walk.

If he sees a horse off lead he comes back to check in and i put his lead on. This has taken years of working with him. He is 12 this year.
We got him as a 1 year old and certain behavours are now stuck. But he only tries to herd the ones im dealing with.

I think you are going to have to take her away from her triggers and work work and work in her obedance.
You might never get it to go fully but witj effort you can.improve.