My goodness, I'm a little shocked by this

[Spudlet]

I was just googling away, and I was curious about what a 'forced retrieve' is so I just looked it up. I got what I think it an american website describing how to do this to a young gundog in training. According to the author this is the only way to have a reliable dog in the field.

Now I would not call myself fluffy, I am employed by one of the decidedly less fluffy animal charities, I can kill rabbits, and while I think positive training is generally better and should be the first course I believe discipline is important, I have certainly smacked my share of horses, and Henry has had a smacked bottom once or twice as well.

However I did find this unpleasant reading. The basic premise appeared to be that you should deliberately cause your dog enough pain to make it 'start squealing', by either twisting an ear, using a spike collar, or applying a 'toe hitch' (I don't know what one of these is but I can guess, and I don't like what I guess). You should only relieve this pain when the dog grabs the dummy, (which during the previous stage of training you have been placing in the dogs mouth and holding the mouth shut shut), and you should do this 20-30 times a day for several days.

The person writing this says that:

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After some rough experiences, many dogs (especially soft natured ones) will react to a slight jerk on the leash in just the same way as if I had just tried to rip their head off. Same with the ear tweak - often just touching or reaching for the ear is enough to make junior comply with our wishes. In some cases, he may even squeak although we haven't touched him at all! This is a sign of a training induced sensitivity that is very helpful later on as it allows us to just "threaten" with punishment, without actually having to do it!

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Now, I have no issue with prong collars used on the right dog, by the right person for the right reasons - I know that CaveCanem on here has had good results using one for her dog's agression issue - but this just sounds like bullying to me, and something that would ruin the temperaments of many dogs

Reading it has made me feel

Sorry, I really needed to get that off my chest.

If that's the only way to a 100% reliable dog (I don't believe it is for a moment!) then I'll keep my little scatty ratbag, thank you!

 

[Kallibear]

That's horrific. And made even worse by the fact the 'trainer' seems believe its in the dogs best interest.

It's nothing more than torturing the dog until it complies with what you want, and is so scared that it lives in constast fear of further torture

Can you imagine what some of the less intelligent dogs, the ones who don't quickly make the connection with picking the dummy up and the pain stopping, would go through

 

[CorvusCorax]

I have to say I am a little shocked at this too. Way to make a headshy dog......

As you say I have used a prong/spike/pinch/Mr Spikey

with good results but it was to check undesireable and downright dangerous behaviour and get focus back from an unfocused animal, not using pain to provoke an action which can actually be trained using traditional methods (and one that I thought would be inherant in a good gundog).

There are some methods used in dogsport that some people might frown at, and these are hard, hard animals (especially the Czech and East German lines - if you're not on top of them, they're on top of you!!!) but nothing like this, and I don't see what good at all it would do most dogs of HPR breeds, which (and correct me if I am wrong) are very even tempered and could suffer and 'zone out' because of harsh treatments.

My dog has no retrieve drive and not a very strong game/play drive so we cannot proceed in certain sections of the sport.
Am I going to force him? Am I jack! I will encourage him in a fun way and if he doesn't show an interest, then we're just going to try other things.

FWIW, I saw a jowl twist for the first time being carried out at the weekend on a very gobby 8mth old, who was grabbing and mouthing anyone who came up to him very hard (he actually snapped my tracking pole clean in half

)
He squealed like a good un, but he didn't do it again.
I would never grab a dog by the ear

 

[Spudlet]

Henry would be really scared by this method

I have always been brought up to believe that a good temperament was essential for gundog breeds - Barney and Henry have both been soft as they come. It's not nice to think of them being abused in this way.

CC, on the subject of retrieving I saw a special toy the other day, it was a hollow bone unscrewed in two halves, which you put treats in - the idea being that the dog learns that it has to retrieve it so you can get the treats out. I was quite tempted, but I suspect Henry would eat his way into it instead

 

[CorvusCorax]

Oooh, sounds good, bearing in mind that the thing with B is that he is only interested in something when it is moving, and only when I am moving it. He won't bother with something longer than a few seconds, once it is static, and he won't play with anything if someone else is holding it - at this age it will be hard to get him out of that habit!
And let's face it, wooden dumbells are really not THAT interesting.....

 

[Spudlet]

http://www.bow-wowland.com/BWshopAcc.htm#Gifts

Scroll down to the fetch and give training bone.

I got the bell Henry wears on evening walks from them, I have to say delivery took agggggges (although they do admit as much) and they appear incapable of answering emails - but it did get to me eventually!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Oh, thanks

 

[meandmyself]

Wow.

If I did that to my dog, I wouldn't have a hand left. He would not tolerate it!

I hate idiots like this that have to make themselves feel better by bullying an animal.

 

[kirstyhen]

[ QUOTE ]

CC, on the subject of retrieving I saw a special toy the other day, it was a hollow bone unscrewed in two halves, which you put treats in - the idea being that the dog learns that it has to retrieve it so you can get the treats out. I was quite tempted, but I suspect Henry would eat his way into it instead

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Our old Lab had a special doggy biscuit tin (as made by my Dad

)
It had a rope handle on the tin and then a knot on the lid. You used to say 'Max, Do you want a biscuit?' and he would rocket off to find his tin, give it to you, pull the knot to take the lid off and help himself to a biscuit and then pick the lid off the floor. Once he had it all learnt he would randomly present you with his tin

then once we got our old Springer he quickly learnt Max knew the key to getting biscuits and would shadown him as soon as the tin was in his gob!

Forced retrieving makes me so sad, as does any form of Gundog training that forces a behaviour which should be natural

Either the dog needs more time to grow up, your not teaching it in a way it understands or perhaps the dog just isn't cut out for the job.
I hate seeing Gundogs out working with their tails down and a general stressed out look about them. A gundog should work because it comes naturally to them and they want to please their handler, not because it's the lesser of two evils

 

[Spudlet]

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Forced retrieving makes me so sad, as does any form of Gundog training that forces a behaviour which should be natural

Either the dog needs more time to grow up, your not teaching it in a way it understands or perhaps the dog just isn't cut out for the job.
I hate seeing Gundogs out working with their tails down and a general stressed out look about them. A gundog should work because it comes naturally to them and they want to please their handler, not because it's the lesser of two evils

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Bless your lab

Know just what you mean about animals working and loving their jobs. There's nothing more lovely than seeing an animal and a human working together as a team, whether that's a horse and rider or a dog and a handler, and when you finally get that partnership it's a great feeling. You can't build that based on fear.

Guess that guy will never know that feeling.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I have mentioned my friend before with a GSD she has had a few problems with. Most of these have been resolved and she has had to use some tough methods (pinch collar and electric collar) to overcome his aggression, with guidance from a local successful trainer. Recently this dog, who competes in working trials, has developed a real problem with his tracking at competitions, although fine at home. Her trainer said he could sort it and from what I gather intended using similar "enforcing" methods as those mentioned above. My friend refused and said she would do it her own way, trainer not impressed . My friend has persevered and at his last 2 trials the dog did brilliant tracks and is now qualified WD

 

[camilla4]

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Forced retrieving makes me so sad, as does any form of Gundog training that forces a behaviour which should be natural

Either the dog needs more time to grow up, your not teaching it in a way it understands or perhaps the dog just isn't cut out for the job.
I hate seeing Gundogs out working with their tails down and a general stressed out look about them. A gundog should work because it comes naturally to them and they want to please their handler, not because it's the lesser of two evils

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Bless your lab

Know just what you mean about animals working and loving their jobs. There's nothing more lovely than seeing an animal and a human working together as a team, whether that's a horse and rider or a dog and a handler, and when you finally get that partnership it's a great feeling. You can't build that based on fear.

Guess that guy will never know that feeling.

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So agree with all of this. Working with animals should be about teamwork - working together in a relationship of mutual trust and respect. There is no excuse for using pain and fear in the way described in this forced retrieve.

 

[Oneofthepack]

Sorry to our american cousins but they do in general have a different attitude to pets in general. As a country they see nothing wrong with mass produced pups for sale in pet shops, chaining dogs to kennels 24/7, dressing them in clothes to match their humans, removing cats claws, clipping dobermans ears etc, and this is another example. I would rather my dog DIDN'T do something I asked than do it out of fear.

Obviously Prose etc, this isn't aimed at you

 

[Tinker_Belle]

After reading that I am very

It's also made me wonder whether that method was used with our Spaniel. He came to us as a rescue & the minute you went to touch his ear he would shy away.
After a lot of work & gentle handling he now loves his ears being stroked, to the point he enjoys having them sucked with the hoover nozzle on the lowest setting

Horrible way indeed to train a dog in something that should be seen as fun by the animal & should be a natural behaviour rather than a forced one.